High speed rail could be so much better

[tbtc]

Once HS2 is built there will be no good reason for domestic flights to exist.

They will still exist.

Partly for international connections, partly for the "super rich", partly for time (there are flights to places like Newquay which HS2 won't touch)...

 

[RichW1]

That's true, Zoe is right in terms of major destinations though but I totally agree, High speed won't touch places like Newquay or Aberdeen for that matter

 

[Zoe]

It's worth noting also that HSTs are to be retained on the MML for now and any upgrade of the MML is dependend on the HS2 study. I get the impression that if we don't get HS2 there will be a major upgrade to the MML.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres £2bn a year free in the Dft rail budget from the end of Crossrail in 2017. If HS2 doesnt use it im sure other projects will however I do believe in the need for HS2.

 

[tbtc]

It's worth noting also that HSTs are to be retained on the MML for now

They are going to be too old for the good people of Cardiff/ Bristol etc, but we are stuck with them until they fall apart...

 

[brianthegiant]

Theres £2bn a year free in the Dft rail budget from the end of Crossrail in 2017. If HS2 doesnt use it im sure other projects will however I do believe in the need for HS2.

How can you be so sure? Osborne is cutting where he can & no budget is sacred. IF HS2 doesn't go ahead ( which I think it will ) that will create an opportunity for the treasury to reduce expenditure on railways.

 

[RichW1]

HS2 will be funded separately to existing rail budgets. I will bet, once the benefits of transport spend are seen in regeneration and commercial interest you will have no worries at all about 'either or', it will be both. I also hold out hope for a brand new airport in the Thames Estuary and closure of Heathrow by 2040's if I'm still alive!!!!

 

[LE Greys]

HS2 will be funded separately to existing rail budgets. I will bet, once the benefits of transport spend are seen in regeneration and commercial interest you will have no worries at all about 'either or', it will be both. I also hold out hope for a brand new airport in the Thames Estuary and closure of Heathrow by 2040's if I'm still alive!!!!

In a century or two, Heathrow could be under the Thames estuary.

 

[Zoe]

In a century or two, Heathrow could be under the Thames estuary.

HS2 won't be much use then with London underwater.

 

[jon0844]

I guess the new rolling stock will need to be made waterproof.

 

[ainsworth74]

Waterproofing the rolling stock is probably going affect the business case, perhaps we should look again at whether HS2 is value for money in light of this new evidence?

 

[jon0844]

If London and large parts of the south east end up under water, I suspect the funding of HS2 is going to be the least of our worries.

Still, I hope HS2 will have broken even within the next 100-200 years, although if it hasn't then I don't really care.

I do wonder if this new' evidence' will be used by the anti-HS2 though. Could well be the best argument they've had so far!!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

HS2 won't be much use then with London underwater.

You don't say!

 

[starrymarkb]

They are going to be too old for the good people of Cardiff/ Bristol etc, but we are stuck with them until they fall apart...

So is the far South West. I think the idea is to assemble pools of the best powercars and sets for the remaining HST services

 

[Zoe]

So is the far South West. I think the idea is to assemble pools of the best powercars and sets for the remaining HST services

I wouldn't exactly call Taunton and Exeter the far South West. Yes they will get some IEP services but will still have HSTs.

 

[starrymarkb]

That's true, Zoe is right in terms of major destinations though but I totally agree, High speed won't touch places like Newquay or Aberdeen for that matter

Or the Islands? I can still see it being quicker/easier to fly SW to Scotland post HS2, especially given that (as proposed) HS2 doesn't link into the classic network at Birmingham.

Also I'll be interested to see if HS2 remains a seperate network (like the TGV) or is integrated into the national network (like the ICE). Possibly with further electrification or a super bi-mode son of IEP you could have services from the SW joining the HSL for the run to Scotland

 

[Zoe]

Retaining HSTs and the Plymouth/Penzance route and the MML is the logical thing to do at this time. It will allow a few years more for decisions on further electrification. You don't want to be committing to a new DMU fleet when there are fuel supply concerns long term. Before anyone says anything about a like for like replacement HSTs, that is not an option. If you are not going to electrify or use bi-mode then it's DMUs or nothing.

 

[tbtc]

Waterproofing the rolling stock is probably going affect the business case, perhaps we should look again at whether HS2 is value for money in light of this new evidence?

If people don't like the windows on the Pendolini then they'll really hate the windows on the submarine-trains which will replace them

 

[jon0844]

Each seat could have its own periscope.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Each seat could have its own periscope.

Someone will still complain about the size of the periscope though!

 

[bf2142]

That's true, Zoe is right in terms of major destinations though but I totally agree, High speed won't touch places like Newquay or Aberdeen for that matter

Although it is these distant locations that would really benefit from some decent rail investment, rebuilding the lines where necessary and electrifying.

I've posted elsewhere that although I don't object to HS2, but it seems somewhat foolish to spend a vast sum to build HS2 when billions have just been spent on the WCML upgrade. It is a joke that it still takes the best part of five hours to get from London to Penzance. Sorry to rant.

 

[jon0844]

Won't other high-speed lines have to be considered in the next 20-30 years too? HS3, 4, 5, 6 etc?

This is step one (ignoring HS1 for a minute) and hopefully just the beginning.

 

[LE Greys]

Won't other high-speed lines have to be considered in the next 20-30 years too? HS3, 4, 5, 6 etc?

This is step one (ignoring HS1 for a minute) and hopefully just the beginning.

Almost certainly. I'd imagine that once we've reached Scotland, and probably Newcastle for the other side, Cardiff will be then next target, most likely via Bristol and a new Severn crossing (perhaps on top of that barrage they keep threatening to build). Within twenty years, both HS1 and HS2 will probably be so busy that they will need either quadrupling or a relief line. HS1 is limited by Chunnel capacity, and two more bores are most likely prohibitively expensive, but a second line running down the eastern side of the country is quite likely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or the Islands? I can still see it being quicker/easier to fly SW to Scotland post HS2, especially given that (as proposed) HS2 doesn't link into the classic network at Birmingham.

Also I'll be interested to see if HS2 remains a seperate network (like the TGV) or is integrated into the national network (like the ICE). Possibly with further electrification or a super bi-mode son of IEP you could have services from the SW joining the HSL for the run to Scotland

Full integrations makes sense, to get the maximum benefit out of the new route and allow interchangeability with classic lines. One day, HS2 will be closed for track replacement and the stock had better be able to run via the WCML. Having some descendent of XC accessing the route at Birmingham will make better use of the paths available on the lower-density sections of the route (i.e. when the Birmingham trains have turned off). Besides, being able to run through gives better access to well-positioned stations in city centres rather than new ones on the edge, and access to smaller stations if need be. I'd also like to see the ticketing integrated (perhaps with a supplement collected on-board) to give people better choice of route.

 

[jon0844]

I hope by the time HS2 opens, we'll have a proper smartcard ticketing system and a more joined up way of pricing journeys.

It could radically shake up ticket pricing as you now have a way to offer incremental discounts to regular passengers, special offers, loyalty rewards and so on. All the more reason we're unlikely to see all Euston to Birmingham tickets costing £200+.

 

[Zoe]

I hope by the time HS2 opens, we'll have a proper smartcard ticketing system and a more joined up way of pricing journeys.

I hope we don't. It will be the perfect excuse for withdrawing unlimited travel season tickets.

 

[jon0844]

Oyster has PAYG and Season Tickets. I can't see them being axed, especially when it offers the TOC money up front.

However, I could see a change to the way monthly or weekly tickets were sold - perhaps with additional discounts as you go on.

Aren't season tickets protected in some way anyway?

 

[Zoe]

Oyster has PAYG and Season Tickets. I can't see them being axed, especially when it offers the TOC money up front.

So long as paper tickets are available, there is no incentive to withdraw unlimited travel. Once paper tickets are no longer available then the Oyster cap could be removed. Remember also that tfl is not a private company. A PLC must to everything possible to maximize revenue for shareholders and you would get more by charging for actualy journeys rather than giving unlimited travel.

 

[Greenback]

Maybe I am too cynical, but I really don't see smartcards bringing massive passenger benefits with them. I can see them being used as an excuse to get rid of staff amd increase TOC profits.

 

[Zoe]

Maybe I am too cynical, but I really don't see smartcards bringing massive passenger benefits with them. I can see them being used as an excuse to get rid of staff amd increase TOC profits.

And of course the ability for all journeys to be tracked.

 

[jon0844]

So long as paper tickets are available, there is no incentive to withdraw unlimited travel. Once paper tickets are no longer available then the Oyster cap could be removed. Remember also that tfl is not a private company. A PLC must to everything possible to maximize revenue for shareholders and you would get more by charging for actualy journeys rather than giving unlimited travel.

Are there many countries that have adopted smartcards that have axed season tickets? Why is it that we always fear the worst when talking about new technology?

There are many possibilities with smartcards, but realistically the likelihood is that it will simply become another way to carry a normal ticket (or your NFC enabled mobile phone).

Do many Londoners worry about being tracked? I personally don't give a damn, as there are rather too many people for me to stand out as being super important.