penalty fines!

[spacehopper]

T&W Metro and some other light rail- is exactly the place where penalty fare system is needed and works.

DOO, unbarried, no booking offices, unstaffed- if you don't buy a ticket from the machine no one is coming to come around and take your fare or sell you one at a barrier or excess fares window. You simply walk out the station having had a free ride like many many people do.

The penalty fare warnings are on the ticket machines which you've just walked past, the red line you've just walked across is the dividing line between the metro CTA, the PIS on platform you checked to see when the next train is due flashes "passengers must have a valid ticket/pass". You get on the train and at every set of doors is a penalty fare warning notice. Go a few stops keeping an eye out for any "orange jacket checkies" , get off cross the red line again telling you that you have exited the metro CTA. Just another free journey. What is so unreasonable about that?

No queue at the booking office, no non functioning complicated ticket machines. You either buy a ticket or you don't. People get PF all time its and open and shut case. Just other week a mate of mine found machine wouldn't take his money. Got to destination got PF, was going to pay at other end as wanted a return. Did he complain about staff conduct or there wasn't any signs and that the bloke let him off last time who was or wasn't an authorised collecter who was keeping him prisoner and breaching DPA?

Well soon you'll be able to pay by coins, notes, cards and smartcard. Stations become barried- revenue will shoot up.

 

[BestWestern]

What's the income situation for T&W Metro? I presume it's subsidised? Completely slack revenue policy is generally a hallmark of an operation which is being helpfully propped up by the taxpayer, usually due to insufficient revenue income - oh the irony! It's shocking how much money walks straight out of the door, totally unchallenged, with this sort of honesty/trust-based method. Not just railways either, it was rumoured to be common practise among regular travellers on London's bendybuses not to pay as the revenue checks were so infrequent. It's incredible how poor revenue collection has come to be among transport providers, can't imagine a supermarket operating an 'optional payment' system! :roll:

 

[londonbridge]

I'm one of a group of Sunderland supporters living in London who do regular trips to home games. Before Grand Central we went via Newcastle and the metro. One of my mates used to buy a zone 2 return and get out at Seaburn,then get on at the Stadium station after the match,which is in zone 3.

 

[142094]

Take the Tyne & Wear Metro. Poor signage and the barriers (where they exist) are inactive - although new ones are planned. 30 year-old ticket machines which don't take notes, don't take credit cards and only accept certain combinations of coins.

Want to buy a ticket with ten 20p coins? No chance... but they still think it reasonable grounds for levying a penalty fare.

At every station there is a sign which states that 'beyond this point you must have a valid ticket to travel'. I can't say off hand that I've noticed at any station if there is one missing, so if you know of one I'd be interested to hear.

I'm not sure why you'd even have 10 20ps but I agree the machines are a bit useless, but thankfully the new ones will sort all that out. The old ones were around at a time when hardly anyone had a debit/credit card, and also most fares were below the 50p mark (even took 1ps and 2ps in those times).

What's the income situation for T&W Metro? I presume it's subsidised? Completely slack revenue policy is generally a hallmark of an operation which is being helpfully propped up by the taxpayer, usually due to insufficient revenue income - oh the irony! It's shocking how much money walks straight out of the door, totally unchallenged, with this sort of honesty/trust-based method. Not just railways either, it was rumoured to be common practise among regular travellers on London's bendybuses not to pay as the revenue checks were so infrequent. It's incredible how poor revenue collection has come to be among transport providers, can't imagine a supermarket operating an 'optional payment' system!

Being like any other PTE service it will be subsidised. You have to weigh up the pros and cons, so obviously if it wasn't cost effective it would not continue to get a subsidy. Ticket checks have increased since DB Regio took over the concession, although you can still get away without a ticket easily (but then again look at heavy rail and you can do the same quite easily on there too).

 

[island]

I have to say that a passenger who was ready, willing, and able to pay his fare but could not because the TVMs were/are malfunctioning has a very strong case against being given a PF.

 

[RPI]

In the West of FGW land the TVM's are pretty reliable and we are aware of stations that are short staffed etc, I very rarely have "queue" or "machine not working" excuse but 9 times out of ten it's "I was late" or "What machine?" (bearing in mind that the other 50 people managed to use it!), in-fact, the majority of PF's lately are for Adult on child or no railcard tickets, the ones who genuinely haven't been able to get a ticket due to faulty machines etc know to see the guard before boarding in the west so they can be distinguished from the "chancers", since the enforcement of PF's began in the west it is very rare to find anyone without a ticket!

PF's have worked here, I cant comment for other TOC's but why do you think there have been huge passenger increases in Devon and Cornwall but no hugely noticeable increase in over crowding etc.........
It is also about how a PF scheme is run, the likes of FCC deal with London commuters, the RPI's will barely ever see the same passenger twice, but in the slightly more rural areas the RPI's get to know the regular "Payers" and "chancers", this makes using discretion more favourable as the RPI may recognise the genuine person who for the last 12 months has had a monthly season but has today just realised it's run out after they ran from their bus onto the train, I find in my day to day workings that by being fair (but still firm) you get the "payers" on side and it gets to the point where they start giving you tip off's about joe bloggs who travels from Trowbridge to Oldfield Park every day and conveniently falls asleep when the guard walks past, or the jack the lad who hangs around at the buffet every day who has never been seen buying a ticket.

PF's are a very handy tool to have, they aren't a big stick to catch everyone out with and when implemented properly work very well indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have to say that a passenger who was ready, willing, and able to pay his fare but could not because the TVMs were/are malfunctioning has a very strong case against being given a PF.

A good RPI would know which machines in the area they are working are available or U/S.

 

[MikeWh]

the likes of FCC deal with London commuters, the RPI's will barely ever see the same passenger twice

I don't think one particular poster on here would agree with that statement. In fact, even though I'm only an occasional traveller, I've managed to see the same RPI on a couple of occasions on SET.

 

[transmanche]

Take the Tyne & Wear Metro. Poor signage and the barriers (where they exist) are inactive - although new ones are planned. 30 year-old ticket machines which don't take notes, don't take credit cards and only accept certain combinations of coins.

Want to buy a ticket with ten 20p coins? No chance... but they still think it reasonable grounds for levying a penalty fare.

At every station there is a sign which states that 'beyond this point you must have a valid ticket to travel'.

Have a look at this picture of Central Station. You've got to look really hard to see a penalty fares warning. There are two of them. One of them is helpfully attached to the ceiling directly above the exit barriers.

Although at least they actually say the words 'penalty fare' now. Here's a picture from just four years ago.

I'm not sure why you'd even have 10 20ps but I agree the machines are a bit useless, but thankfully the new ones will sort all that out. The old ones were around at a time when hardly anyone had a debit/credit card, and also most fares were below the 50p mark (even took 1ps and 2ps in those times

The reason for having ten 20p is simple. I knew that the ticket machine only accepted coins. So I grabbed a pile of coins from a jar before leaving home. A bus driver would accept them. A shopkeeper would accept them. Ticket machines operated by any other operator in the country would accept them. Even a car park pay and display machine would accept them. But not the old Metro ticket machines which have been around since the system opened over 30 years ago.

You can't pay with a note. You can't pay with a card. There's no Oyster card equivalent. You can't buy tickets from local newsagents. And there are no staff to buy tickets from You can only pay with coins. And then only with certain combinations of coins.

A peak-time 3-zone return ticket on Metro (DaySaver) costs £4.80 - off-peak it's £4. Imagine how many coins you need for a family day out!

I have no problem with Penalty Fares in principle. I agree they are appropriate for urban railways such as the Tyne & Wear Metro. But it's a two-way thing. If you expect absolute honesty from the passenger without any tolerance for honest mistakes, then passengers expect the railway to do their bit too. Expecting people to carry bags of change is simply not reasonable.

Even in the SRA/DfT Penalty Fares Policy it says:

"We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:
passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines or a 'permit to travel' machine, and who have enough money (or a credit or debit card) to buy a ticket but not in the form needed to use the ticket or 'permit to travel' machine;
passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines and who claim that the machines were accepting coins only, or the exact fare only, and the passenger did not have the necessary coins (unless the authorised collector can confirm that the machines were in fact working normally)"​

 

[Failed Unit]

IMHO it doesn't matter if this is IN or OUT of a PF zone. If there is a way to buy a ticket you should use it. And turning up late doesn't count as an excuse in my book. I would always aim to arrive at least ten minutes early at a station for a train if I knew I had to purchase a ticket...
.

I would certainly fight any TOC that PF'd me if I waited in a queue to be served for more than 10 minutes, luckily in most circumstances when this happens the barrier staff let you though and the gaurd sells on the train and offers discounts. I assume because control have warned them that passengers from station x have no had the chance to purchase because of slow queues.

 

[BestWestern]

In the West of FGW land the TVM's are pretty reliable and we are aware of stations that are short staffed etc, I very rarely have "queue" or "machine not working" excuse but 9 times out of ten it's "I was late" or "What machine?" (bearing in mind that the other 50 people managed to use it!), in-fact, the majority of PF's lately are for Adult on child or no railcard tickets, the ones who genuinely haven't been able to get a ticket due to faulty machines etc know to see the guard before boarding in the west so they can be distinguished from the "chancers", since the enforcement of PF's began in the west it is very rare to find anyone without a ticket!

PF's have worked here, I cant comment for other TOC's but why do you think there have been huge passenger increases in Devon and Cornwall but no hugely noticeable increase in over crowding etc.........
It is also about how a PF scheme is run, the likes of FCC deal with London commuters, the RPI's will barely ever see the same passenger twice, but in the slightly more rural areas the RPI's get to know the regular "Payers" and "chancers", this makes using discretion more favourable as the RPI may recognise the genuine person who for the last 12 months has had a monthly season but has today just realised it's run out after they ran from their bus onto the train, I find in my day to day workings that by being fair (but still firm) you get the "payers" on side and it gets to the point where they start giving you tip off's about joe bloggs who travels from Trowbridge to Oldfield Park every day and conveniently falls asleep when the guard walks past, or the jack the lad who hangs around at the buffet every day who has never been seen buying a ticket.

PF's are a very handy tool to have, they aren't a big stick to catch everyone out with and when implemented properly work very well indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A good RPI would know which machines in the area they are working are available or U/S.

That's very good news and I'm pleased to hear of the success. The same now needs to be replicated in the Central region of FGW land! Westbury area, Bristol area, Taunton & Weston area, all a haven for those who frequently travel short distances and regularly pay nothing. When approached by a Guard they are well aware that any excuse will do as there is ultimately nothing that can or will be done, save for being asked to leave the train at the next stop, which happily for them is usually where they were intending to alight anyway! With the emphasis on reduction of delay minutes there is precious little opportunity for a Guard to deal with fare evaders without causing bigger and more expensive issues. Eventually the realisation sets in that there is no ability to carry out any consequential action, often with the result that many will simply stop carrying out revenue duties in blackspot areas rather than face abuse and excuses every time. What is unhelpful is to advertise a PF zone and then barely enforce it to any noticeable extent, which only serves to devalue the PF deterrent and further boost the confidence of the 'dodgers'!

 

[Mojo]

T&W Metro and some other light rail- is exactly the place where penalty fare system is needed and works.

DOO, unbarried, no booking offices, unstaffed- if you don't buy a ticket from the machine no one is coming to come around and take your fare or sell you one at a barrier or excess fares window. You simply walk out the station having had a free ride like many many people do.

Surely this is the case where a penalty fare should not be charged and the details should be taken and the individual sent to court?

 

[spacehopper]

Surely this is the case where a penalty fare should not be charged and the details should be taken and the individual sent to court?

Given the scale of the problem the courts would always be full! It's not unusual to have anything between 10-20 people per train traveling for free. I bet if you stood at a block for an hour the numbers caught would easily be over a 100. There are a hardcore that will never buy a ticket, the occasional penalty fare isn't going to deter them. The problems of ticketless travel are just one part of problem the system faces. Wide spread vandalism and anti social issues blight the trains and stations. It has its own police unit, travel safe officers, extensive CCTV and help points. Yet passengers don't feel any safer and at times it can feel like the wild west and not West Monkseaton.

 

[yorkie]

T&W Metro and some other light rail- is exactly the place where penalty fare system is needed and works.

So, penalty fares work?

There are a hardcore that will never buy a ticket, the occasional penalty fare isn't going to deter them.

So, penalty fares don't work?

Are you suggesting penalty fares are a suitable "punishment" for people intending to avoid paying their fare? This is contrary to official policy!

 

[Bomber]

Just looking at fares and non payment from another point, I have recently travelled several times from Lancaster to Warrington and return, both open stations, by Virgin, at various times on various days. On each occassion I have had a valid ticket and on no occassion have I had to show it.
How tempting therefore to not bother getting a ticket next time.:roll:

 

[jon0844]

Is it such a bad thing if courts filled up with fare evaders, who got criminal records and perhaps even some jail time (or community service etc)?

Surely it wouldn't continue like that for that long?

 

[spacehopper]

The attitude seems to be well if you get caught you get caught. It's a numbers game, occasional penalty fare or £20. Most just give a fake address or hop a wall etc.

I think a few years ago a Evening Chronicle reporter travelled the system for a few weeks without a ticket and in the end they just gave up trying to get a penalty fare.

As for oh I travel all the time and never get my ticket checked. Well I'm sure many OP can travel for months at a time without having a ticket checked. In last year I've been checked twice on the system. Doesn't mean I'm never going to buy a ticket.

Effectiveness and rights and wrongs of penalty fares can be debated, my point was that on this system there are no booking offices or queues, system is DOO, no barriers so if you don't buy a ticket you get a free ride. You may end up getting a penalty fare and if you do maybe it will make you think twice about doing it again. After all they do take people to court and you become a "loser".

On this system the social, economic situation means that fare evasion is rife. It is a way of life that the "metty" is free and you can just run past the "checkies". System runs through some very deprived areas and some of these people will just never pay, maybe because they can't afford to or maybe because it is the culture. The makeup of the area has changed over the years lots of different nationalities.

If you pay your way then your helping to keep the system open. Lowering the subsidy and helping towards the cost of development. I paid for my ticket if others haven't well maybe £20 hit on the wallet goes some way to clawing back revenue and as a deterrent.

 

[RPI]

I agree that a PF scheme is useless unless it is enforced in some way, as for the Taunton-Bristol corridor.... watch this space.

Most PF's issued in the Central area are issued by gateline staff!
It is difficult in the central area as most TVM's are now card only.

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree that a PF scheme is useless unless it is enforced in some way, as for the Taunton-Bristol corridor.... watch this space.

Most PF's issued in the Central area are issued by gateline staff!
It is difficult in the central area as most TVM's are now card only.

That is one thing that really annoys me about some TOCs that harp on about lost revenue, in some cases they make it nearly impossible for passengers to buy tickets.

CT was always bleating on about it in Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire, however the only way to buy tickets was on the train, it was hardly the passengers fault that the gaurds couldn't sell tickets to everyone wanting one but instead of providing ticket issuing facalities they decide to state everyone is a criminal, barrier Lincoln and Nottingham and highlight how much revenue they have recovered. They failed to mention that this was revenue from passengers that could not have purchased a ticket even if they want to.

Although am I correct in saying that to operate a penalty fares area you must give the passengers the option to purchase a ticket. If you don't provide TVMs or staff that can take both cash and cards then no PF can be issued?

 

[island]

Correct. A passenger who has money (including a warrant, a credit or debit card, or, until the end of June, a cheque with guarantee card) but not in the form required by the ticket-selling facilities, isn't liable to be PFed and must be offered any discounted ticket that would have been available before travel from a proper booking office.

 

[RPI]

That is correct Island, the biggest thing that has helped in the West is word of mouth, it's amazing the snowball effect of PFing one school kid has on every kid from the same school!

FGW also liase with local schools in the west to try and nip the problem in the bud before it begins.

 

[sheff1]

That's very good news and I'm pleased to hear of the success. The same now needs to be replicated in the Central region of FGW land! Westbury area, Bristol area, Taunton & Weston area, all a haven for those who frequently travel short distances and regularly pay nothing. When approached by a Guard they are well aware that any excuse will do as there is ultimately nothing that can or will be done, save for being asked to leave the train at the next stop, which happily for them is usually where they were intending to alight anyway! With the emphasis on reduction of delay minutes there is precious little opportunity for a Guard to deal with fare evaders without causing bigger and more expensive issues. Eventually the realisation sets in that there is no ability to carry out any consequential action, often with the result that many will simply stop carrying out revenue duties in blackspot areas rather than face abuse and excuses every time. What is unhelpful is to advertise a PF zone and then barely enforce it to any noticeable extent, which only serves to devalue the PF deterrent and further boost the confidence of the 'dodgers'!

Judging from my experience yesterday, this seems to be an issue in Southern territory as well. Travelling from Coulsdon Sth to Horley, the ticket checker approached me immediately. At Redhill, 4 youths joined and sat in the bay opposite me. Again the checker approached at once and said to them 'Have you got tickets?' . 'No'. 'Get off at Horley then - but that is where you were going anyway isn't it ?' 'Yes'. No attempt was made to sell any tickets.

As I alighted I asked the checker whether it was standard policy that travel to Horley was free. He said that people travelled all the time without tickets on the Merstham - Horley section and implied that this behaviour was acceptable to Southern.

It would appear that not only is the PF scheme no deterrent, but that dodgers are almost encouraged to travel for free. I would not like to be on late evening trains in this area.

 

[BestWestern]

Judging from my experience yesterday, this seems to be an issue in Southern territory as well. Again the checker approached at once and said to them 'Have you got tickets?' . 'No'. 'Get off at Horley then - but that is where you were going anyway isn't it ?' 'Yes'. No attempt was made to sell any tickets.

As I alighted I asked the checker whether it was standard policy that travel to Horley was free. He said that people travelled all the time without tickets on the Merstham - Horley section and implied that this behaviour was acceptable to Southern.

It would appear that not only is the PF scheme no deterrent, but that dodgers are almost encouraged to travel for free. I would not like to be on late evening trains in this area.

I'd have to say that I sympathise with the Guard here - if people who travel free on a daily basis board a train with absolutely no intention whatsoever of paying, there is little that the Guard can do. You can stand there until the next stop having an argument about it, but if they have no money they aren't going to pay, very simple. So the only 'policy' that one can sensibly adopt is to have a bit of a moan of some sort and tell them to pay next time. Of course, you know full well they won't, but you have to go through the motions, at least for the benefit of other passengers if nothing else. I generally just try to shame them in front of everyone else in the coach; some don't care, but it does get to some of them having 20 or 30 fare paying punters giving them evil glares for the next five or ten minutes. That's about the best you can do a lot of the time.

 

[jon0844]

The TOC should organise a few stings, backed up by police. When FCC do these, they don't just catch fare evaders, they also find drugs, weapons and people wanted by the police.

You are right that the poor guard can't do much, but the industry needs to redress the balance from time to time or it will only get worse and worse.

 

[Flamingo]

The TOC should organise a few stings, backed up by police. When FCC do these, they don't just catch fare evaders, they also find drugs, weapons and people wanted by the police.

You are right that the poor guard can't do much, but the industry needs to redress the balance from time to time or it will only get worse and worse.

It does get done. Not often enough IMHO, but can be useful. Filton Abbey Woods was targeted a few weeks ago, one week of selling tickets and giving warnings, one week clear, then another week of PF's and MG11's. They took a fortune in tickets.

I believe the plan is for irregular swoops over the next while just to keep the students on their toes "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition"

As regards dealing with gangs with no tickets we specifically get told "Don't antagonise, don't confront, you are a lone worker and it's not worth getting your head kicked in for a few quid, the company won't thank you" accompanied my one of the crappiest training videos it has ever been my misfortune to sit through showing a guard getting a beating from a gang of youths in FC as he "waded in without thinking of his own safety".

 

[island]

Indeed. Hither Green was flooded with RPIs a couple of days after it was mentioned here as a high evasion location, and again a week or so later.

 

[jon0844]

The FCC revenue people I know always talk about how incredibly successful the police backed stings are (often with dogs and once in a blue moon with metal detectors) so, like me, wonder why they don't do them more often.

Not only does FCC get positive results, but the police always find people they've been looking for and make many arrests for various offences.

Of course there must be a cost to the police, but surely it's cheaper for the police to have the criminals come to them than have to go and look for them. I'd be setting up a permanent team to do stings at railway stations and have them move around at random all year around.

I guess the usual argument is that eventually they'd be too effective and everyone would have a ticket, drug dealers wouldn't use the trains and nobody would carry weapons - and so the police wouldn't be needed! Then they go and it starts over..

 

[BestWestern]

Indeed, these stings are a great help, but they need to be regular to have the desired effect. I'd hazard a guess that FCC would perhaps offer a better crop of crooks than some of the regional TOCs, being on the London corridor and also a DOO operation with no on-board presence to deter undesirables. If the Police are to be involved frequently in this type of labour-intensive operation I'd imagine they need to be showing good results in terms of arrests for items other then fare evasion. The Filton Abbeywood situation is a good demonstration of how barriers have only limited effect - there are plenty who travel from Filton, on one side of Bristol Temple Meads, to local stops just the other side of it, who pass through no barriers and don't posses tickets. Guards often don't work their train here if it's stopping at all the local shacks either side of BTM as it's hard work and often the service will be full, and they may very well be changing crews at Bristol, so fare evasion is rife. And we're talking professionals working at MoD sites not just dodgy kids in hoodies! Just goes to show.

 

[island]

<nitpick> The code for Bristol Temple Meads is BRI, not BTM.</nitpick> Although BTM is not a valid station, so less confusion than when people write BNS (Barnes) meaning Birmingham New Street (BHM)!

 

[sheff1]

I'd have to say that I sympathise with the Guard here - if people who travel free on a daily basis board a train with absolutely no intention whatsoever of paying, there is little that the Guard can do. You can stand there until the next stop having an argument about it, but if they have no money they aren't going to pay, very simple. So the only 'policy' that one can sensibly adopt is to have a bit of a moan of some sort and tell them to pay next time. Of course, you know full well they won't, but you have to go through the motions, at least for the benefit of other passengers if nothing else. I generally just try to shame them in front of everyone else in the coach; some don't care, but it does get to some of them having 20 or 30 fare paying punters giving them evil glares for the next five or ten minutes. That's about the best you can do a lot of the time.

I agree entirely with what you say. My point was that the guard made no effort to sell anything or tell them to pay next time.

 

[Flamingo]

I agree entirely with what you say. My point was that the guard made no effort to sell anything or tell them to pay next time.

There are times when you save your breath to cool your porridge :roll: