Most loco changes on UK train. Current and historic

[EbbwJunction1]

What about the Euston sleeper Inverness to Euston. Could have 3 26’s or 24’s for the Highland main line the. A Type 4 for the Northern part of WC then an AC electric for Southern end of the WCML

I travelled on that back in the late 1970s ... however, I can't remember what the haulage was, and my notebooks are sadly long gone!

 

[D6130]

I travelled on that back in the late 1970s ... however, I can't remember what the haulage was, and my notebooks are sadly long gone!

Would almost certainly have been a 47 from Inverness to Mossend by then, with an A.C. electric loco onwards to Euston; so only two locos.....unless of course there were engineering works diversions in force over non-electrified lines in the North West of England or the West Midlands.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Would almost certainly have been a 47 from Inverness to Mossend by then, with an A.C. electric loco onwards to Euston; so only two locos.....unless of course there were engineering works diversions in force over non-electrified lines in the North West of England or the West Midlands.

That rings a bell ... or, more accurately, I remember being woken up at Mossend when the train stopped for the loco change!

 

[D6975]

The Aberdeen portion of the Plymouth - Glasgow/Aberdeen used to have 5 locos at one time (sometimes 6).
1st loco Plymouth - Gloucester
2nd loco Gloucester - New St
3rd loco New St - Carstairs
4th loco Carstairs - Waverley
5th loco Waverley - Aberdeen (often a pair of type 2s)

 

[Magdalia]

What about the Euston sleeper Inverness to Euston. Could have 3 26’s or 24’s for the Highland main line the. A Type 4 for the Northern part of WC then an AC electric for Southern end of the WCML

My impression of steam days is that the WCML ran longer distances between loco changes than the ECML, the main change points being Crewe, Carlisle and Perth.

However the Highland Main Line would have been a pair in steam days, and this continued with pairs of type 2 diesels 1960-74. 3 locos did happen on occasions on the up road, but I doubt that it was booked in diesel days.

I think the key period for maximising the loco changes/number of locos on the train is the early 1960s, part way through the original WCML electrification, when trains were also changing locos at Nuneaton. At that time were the trains still also changing locos at Carlisle or running through Perth-Crewe?

After the 1974 electrification it was just 2 locos Inverness-Euston with change from diesel to electric in Mossend Yard. But as has been pointed out already, there could be more changes for engineering work, sleepers still ran on Saturday nights in those days.

 

[xotGD]

Six locos on the Fort William overnight:

85018 Carlisle - Mossend 1S06
37054 Mossend - Cowlairs 1T02
37108 Cowlairs - Queen Street 1T02
27053 Queen Street - Queen Street 1T02 - shunting the overnight stock onto the front of the day coaches
37014 + 37022 Queen Street - Cowlairs 1B07

14 went pop in the tunnel, so was removed at Cowlairs.

Actually, might have been 7 locos if we were assisted from the rear up the tunnel!

 

[delt1c]

My impression of steam days is that the WCML ran longer distances between loco changes than the ECML, the main change points being Crewe, Carlisle and Perth.

However the Highland Main Line would have been a pair in steam days, and this continued with pairs of type 2 diesels 1960-74. 3 locos did happen on occasions on the up road, but I doubt that it was booked in diesel days.

I think the key period for maximising the loco changes/number of locos on the train is the early 1960s, part way through the original WCML electrification, when trains were also changing locos at Nuneaton. At that time were the trains still also changing locos at Carlisle or running through Perth-Crewe?

After the 1974 electrification it was just 2 locos Inverness-Euston with change from diesel to electric in Mossend Yard. But as has been pointed out already, there could be more changes for engineering work, sleepers still ran on Saturday nights in those days.Late 60,s early 70,s 3 locos were not in

late 60's early 70's 3 locos were not uncommon as the invernes service often used LMS designed 6 wheel sleepers. saw it severl times with triple header

 

[Cowley]

Six locos on the Fort William overnight:

85018 Carlisle - Mossend 1S06
37054 Mossend - Cowlairs 1T02
37108 Cowlairs - Queen Street 1T02
27053 Queen Street - Queen Street 1T02 - shunting the overnight stock onto the front of the day coaches
37014 + 37022 Queen Street - Cowlairs 1B07

14 went pop in the tunnel, so was removed at Cowlairs.

Actually, might have been 7 locos if we were assisted from the rear up the tunnel!

Outstanding stuff!

 

[xotGD]

Outstanding stuff!

That was the very start of my first Freedom of Scotland.

 

[Rescars]

That rings a bell ... or, more accurately, I remember being woken up at Mossend when the train stopped for the loco change!

So do I. In both directions!

 

[D6130]

Six locos on the Fort William overnight:

85018 Carlisle - Mossend 1S06
37054 Mossend - Cowlairs 1T02
37108 Cowlairs - Queen Street 1T02
27053 Queen Street - Queen Street 1T02 - shunting the overnight stock onto the front of the day coaches
37014 + 37022 Queen Street - Cowlairs 1B07

14 went pop in the tunnel, so was removed at Cowlairs.

Which date was that?

 

[xotGD]

Which date was that?

25th July 1983

Full details of the day in post 1314 in the "Back in the Day" thread...

 

[EbbwJunction1]

So do I. In both directions!

I only travelled south, so only suffered it once!

 

[nw1]

The Leeds portion of the Newcastle to Poole
One loco Leeds yo Sheffield
08 shunts on to the back of the train from Newcastle
Type 4 Sheffield to Birmingham
47 Birmingham to Reading
33 Reading to Poole

The latter wasn't typical in my days spent at Reading (January 1984 to October 1986) but it was common for the loco out of Reading to be different from the loco into Reading - even if they were both 47s. Mind you I think the Leeds portion had gone by then.

The only 33 I ever saw on an XC was the FO 1246 Portsmouth-Leeds.

However for a while (1984 timetable, I think) this service was 50-hauled Birmingham-Reading and 47-hauled south of Reading. Presumably it wasn't a 50 north of Birmingham (I'd guess a Gateshead 47 which then returned on the northbound) so even without the Leeds portion this would have been 3 locos in total.

 

[Rescars]

I only travelled south, so only suffered it once!

As a total aside, I once did KX-Aberdeen one night and return the next with a very full day's work in between. In Mk1 sleepers. It took me quite a while to recover!!

 

[Magdalia]

The latter wasn't typical in my days spent at Reading (January 1984 to October 1986) but it was common for the loco out of Reading to be different from the loco into Reading - even if they were both 47s. Mind you I think the Leeds portion had gone by then.

The only 33 I ever saw on an XC was the FO 1246 Portsmouth-Leeds.

The Poole-Newcastle to Reading for the Newcastle-Poole back was booked a class 33 in the 1970s.

That ended when the train went over to aircon coaches, which the class 33 couldn't heat.

 

[delt1c]

The Poole-Newcastle to Reading for the Newcastle-Poole back was booked a class 33 in the 1970s.

That ended when the train went over to aircon coaches, which the class 33 couldn't heat.

Why couldn’t the 33’s heat the air con as 33’s were ETH

 

[Western 52]

Why couldn’t the 33’s heat the air con as 33’s were ETH

Insufficient ETH index for the number of coaches?

 

[NorthWestRover]

Six locos on the Fort William overnight:

85018 Carlisle - Mossend 1S06
37054 Mossend - Cowlairs 1T02
37108 Cowlairs - Queen Street 1T02
27053 Queen Street - Queen Street 1T02 - shunting the overnight stock onto the front of the day coaches
37014 + 37022 Queen Street - Cowlairs 1B07

14 went pop in the tunnel, so was removed at Cowlairs.

Actually, might have been 7 locos if we were assisted from the rear up the tunnel!

Not dissimilar...

Monday 15th August 1983

85025 Carlisle to Mossend Yard, 1S06 21.00 Euston to Fort William
27033 Mossend Yard to Cowlairs, 1S06
37081 Cowlairs to Glasgow QS, 1S06
27206 stock shunt platform 7 to 6
37012/20045 Glasgow QS to Fort William, 1B07, 06.00 Glasgow QS to Mallaig
37012 Fort William to Mallaig, 1B07

 

[etr221]

I wonder how many locos were involved in the WW1 Naval Specials to Scotland: Euston-Thurso (717 miles daily - at least 6; from Euston, changes at Crewe, Carlisle, Edinburgh, Perth and Inverness - possibly more?), or Devonport-Invergordon (721 miles in 24hrs45min - via the Severn Tunnel and the North&West line, including meal (& presumably loco change) stops at Taunton, Shrewsbury and Perth: other loco changes I would suggest at Crewe, Carlisle and Inverness, and possibly elsewhere). To which also allow for double heading, bankers, etc... - so into double figures, at least at times.

Or the Naval Grand Fleet coal specials: Pontypool Road-Grangemouth, various routes, about 350miles (or more - some of the routes were a bit devious), taking about 48hours...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I wonder how many locos were involved in the WW1 Naval Specials to Scotland: Euston-Thurso (717 miles daily - at least 6; from Euston, changes at Crewe, Carlisle, Edinburgh, Perth and Inverness - possibly more?),

The loco from Carlisle would probably work through to Perth - there was no need to take the longer route via Edinburgh which is a relatively modern routing.

Not dissimilar...

Monday 15th August 1983

85025 Carlisle to Mossend Yard, 1S06 21.00 Euston to Fort William
27033 Mossend Yard to Cowlairs, 1S06
37081 Cowlairs to Glasgow QS, 1S06
27206 stock shunt platform 7 to 6
37012/20045 Glasgow QS to Fort William, 1B07, 06.00 Glasgow QS to Mallaig
37012 Fort William to Mallaig, 1B07

Possibly also a banker out of Queen St?

 

[NorthWestRover]

I normally recorded the banker so perhaps not on this occasion?

 

[etr221]

The loco from Carlisle would probably work through to Perth - there was no need to take the longer route via Edinburgh which is a relatively modern routing.

While the original route was direct from Carlisle to Perth via the Caledonian, it was re-routed to run over the North British (Waverley route: would 8 minute stops at Hawick/Galashiels be for loco changes?, then through Fife), to serve Inverkeithing, to detach portion for the Rosyth naval base.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

While the original route was direct from Carlisle to Perth via the Caledonian, it was re-routed to run over the North British (Waverley route: would 8 minute stops at Hawick/Galashiels be for loco changes?, then through Fife), to serve Inverkeithing, to detach portion for the Rosyth naval base.

That is interesting, sorry I wasn't aware, and yes, 8 mins would be sufficient for a loco change, or perhaps water stops.

 

[Magdalia]

Why couldn’t the 33’s heat the air con as 33’s were ETH

The class 33s were the first BR diesel locos with ETH, designed in the late 1950s, when aircon coaches were still a long time away. I can't find a good source quickly but my recollection is that class 33 ETH is driven by a separate dc generator. It was designed to meet Southern Region requirements for heating MarkI coaches and to be compatible with EMUs, not for aircon. And the class 33 is not a Type 4, so use of ETH makes a noticeable difference to performance: when class 33s were used on the Waterloo-Exeter route winter loadings were reduced by one coach to compensate for the traction power lost to ETH.

I'm not an electrical engineer so my knowledge of how different methods of generating power for ETH interface with aircon coaches is rudimentary. But the best way to heat aircon coaches with a diesel loco was the Brush dual wound alternator pioneered in D1960 and D1961, then fitted to the class 47/45/31 ETH conversions. That was designed with aircon as the objective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==

That is interesting, sorry I wasn't aware, and yes, 8 mins would be sufficient for a loco change, or perhaps water stops.

Stops for water would have been essential on the Waverley route. As far as I can tell the North British didn't do water troughs.

 

[Ken H]

So do I. In both directions!

By what? Rough shunting or the heating going on and off?

 

[Ken H]

The class 33s were the first BR diesel locos with ETH, designed in the late 1950s, when aircon coaches were still a long time away. I can't find a good source quickly but my recollection is that class 33 ETH is driven by a separate dc generator. It was designed to meet Southern Region requirements for heating MarkI coaches and to be compatible with EMUs, not for aircon. And the class 33 is not a Type 4, so use of ETH makes a noticeable difference to performance: when class 33s were used on the Waterloo-Exeter route winter loadings were reduced by one coach to compensate for the traction power lost to ETH.

I'm not an electrical engineer so my knowledge of how different methods of generating power for ETH interface with aircon coaches is rudimentary. But the best way to heat aircon coaches with a diesel loco was the Brush dual wound alternator pioneered in D1960 and D1961, then fitted to the class 47/45/31 ETH conversions. That was designed with aircon as the objective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==


Stops for water would have been essential on the Waverley route. As far as I can tell the North British didn't do water troughs.

Dont locos have an ETH index, as do coaches. Add up the coaches ETH indices. If thats more than the loco you cant do it.
I think drivers could turn off the ETH when they need all the horses for traction. Say on gradients.

 

[Magdalia]

Dont locos have an ETH index, as do coaches. Add up the coaches ETH indices. If thats more than the loco you cant do it.

That's correct but it is not the whole story. There can be sufficient ETH power according to the index but the electrical circuitry may still be incompatible. That's the case with class 33s and class 55s on most aircon vehicles.

I think drivers could turn off the ETH when they need all the horses for traction. Say on gradients.

Fresh air coaches are usually ETH 1, aircons are usually ETH 4. Put simply, at maximum power demand for ETH on aircons need 4 times as much power as fresh air coaches. That's a significant difference, especially for a small loco. With a class 33 on aircons that would need the ETH off almost all the way from Southampton to Basingstoke for the long climb from Eastleigh up to Roundwood tunnel. In the 1970s, when class 33s worked the Exeter-Waterloo service on fresh air stock, the Southern Region reduced train loads by one coach in winter to compensate for the reduced loco performance with the ETH on.

 

[Rescars]

By what? Rough shunting or the heating going on and off?

Well, it's a long time ago and I may be conflating various incidents, but IIRC it was a combination of both these factors along with a lot of shouting and shunters etc trampling over the ballast. All very necessary no doubt, but not great to try to sleep through!