Avanti West Coast performance statistics

[Skiddaw]

I legitimately feel sorry for those who use AWC (and by extension Northern/TPE) for the horrendous service and treatment they get. Unless absolutely necessary, it's fair to say that if I need to travel north, I'll use LNER, having never had a problem with them!

I think it's fair to say that we're fed up to the back teeth with them.... Personally, I shall be out the other side of unhappy if AWC retains their franchise (and TPE aren't much better).

I will say, however (and I know I've said this before more than once) that I've never had an issue with the staff at Penrith/Carlise or the Avanti Customer Services Team. I've found them to be unfailingly polite, helpful and friendly. I can well understand why some of them are losing it a bit on Twitter. They're in an impossible position aren't they? Trying to justify the unjustifiable and taking all the flack. I feel genuinely sorry for them.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I will say, however (and I know I've said this before more than once) that I've never had an issue with the staff at Penrith/Carlise or the Avanti Customer Services Team. I've found them to be unfailingly polite, helpful and friendly. I can well understand why some of them are losing it a bit on Twitter. They're in an impossible position aren't they? Trying to justify the unjustifiable and taking all the flack. I feel genuinely sorry for them.

Front line, customer-facing roles (in all sectors, not just rail) always get far too much abuse - high level corporate make decisions, they are then forced to enact them and get the abuse from passengers when it all goes wrong.

 

[Skiddaw]

Front line, customer-facing roles (in all sectors, not just rail) always get far too much abuse - high level corporate make decisions, they are then forced to enact them and get the abuse from passengers when it all goes wrong.

Agreed. In a past life I've been there.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

The ridiculous thing is that anybody like myself giving up the whole farce and abandoning the WCML at the moment probably isn't that great a loss to the railway given the amount of delay repay.

The goverment gets the ticket revenue. They pay operating costs and a management fee to Avanti. Avanti get paid the management fee no matter what. There are small bonuses paid for operational performance and customer experience, which I doubt Avanti are getting.

We, the taxpayers, are the ones taking a loss when Avanti repay for delayed or cancled services. (or reduced govt. revenue -- Avanti were in the black recently)


details here:

DfT payments to passenger rail operators under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts

Summary of payments, including management fees, payable by DfT to train operating companies from 1 March 2020 to 31 March 2024 under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts.

www.gov.uk

 

[Facing Back]

The goverment gets the ticket revenue. They pay operating costs and a management fee to Avanti. Avanti get paid the management fee no matter what. There are small bonuses paid for operational performance and customer experience, which I doubt Avanti are getting.

I'm just watching Hew Merriman in yesterday's transport select committee. He has said twice that the management fee is 2%. Of this 0.5% is guaranteed and 1.5% is conditional on the TOC hitting certain performance target so it seems that it is not paid "no matter what"

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I'm just watching Hew Merriman in yesterday's transport select committee. He has said twice that the management fee is 2%. Of this 0.5% is guaranteed and 1.5% is conditional on the TOC hitting certain performance target so it seems that it is not paid "no matter what"

That might be the current arrangement. I've not been able to find anything for the second half of 2022.

The most recent numbers I can find posted by the DfT show West Coast Partnership (Avanti) getting £2,829,000 in conditional fees based on performance scores and an £8,484,000 management fee.
This is on top of the money the DfT give to West Cost Partnership to operate the railway.

It is in a spreadsheet near the end of the link I posted earlier -->

DfT payments to passenger rail operators under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts

Summary of payments, including management fees, payable by DfT to train operating companies from 1 March 2020 to 31 March 2024 under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts.

www.gov.uk

DfT payments to passenger rail operators under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts

Summary of payments, including management fees, payable by DfT to train operating companies from 1 March 2020 to 31 March 2024 under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts.

www.gov.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That might be the current arrangement. I've not been able to find anything for the second half of 2022.

The most recent numbers I can find posted by the DfT show West Coast Partnership (Avanti) getting £2,829,000 in conditional fees based on performance scores and an £8,484,000 management fee.
This is on top of the money the DfT give to West Cost Partnership to operate the railway.

These were for the previous financial year when performance was far better.

 

[route101]

Took Avanti up from Preston to Glasgow last night, the 1941 from Preston. On RTT this service was cancelled from Euston to Preston but rolled into Preston around 15 minutes late with passengers so must of ran from London! Overheard the staff that got on at Preston, that the service is to restart from Preston. Not sure what they meant as the train was scheduled to run through to Glasgow.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Took Avanti up from Preston to Glasgow last night, the 1941 from Preston. On RTT this service was cancelled from Euston to Preston but rolled into Preston around 15 minutes late with passengers so must of ran from London! Overheard the staff that got on at Preston, that the service is to restart from Preston. Not sure what they meant as the train was scheduled to run through to Glasgow.

Anglo Scottish running well today compared to the disaster that it was in late 2022

 

[route101]

Anglo Scottish running well today compared to the disaster that it was in late 2022

The WCML service used to be quite reliable pre Avanti. Hopefully reliability is getting better.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The WCML service used to be quite reliable pre Avanti. Hopefully reliability is getting better.

Reality was industrial action undermined it but im with Merriman they took action and reworked rosters and with the extra 100 drivers they need a six month clear run to see if they can perform adequately which i reckon they can. TPE however is another story and needs to be taken over forthwith and merged with Northern.

 

[al78]

Front line, customer-facing roles (in all sectors, not just rail) always get far too much abuse - high level corporate make decisions, they are then forced to enact them and get the abuse from passengers when it all goes wrong.

Externalising the consequences of decisions, cool and normal!!

 

[Some guy]

Anglo Scottish running well today compared to the disaster that it was in late 2022

It normally does on a Sunday but that’s mainly due to overtime to make up for future strike days. Saturdays are a different story it’s a shambles that day every single week

 

[Snow1964]

According to a Sky news Report the ORR (office of rail and road) Avanti cancellations are worst in country at 18.9%

Office of Rail and Road data shows the cancellations score for all operators during the four weeks to 7 January was 8%, which was double the proportion from the previous period.

Avanti West Coast cancelled the equivalent of about one in five services and registered a cancellations score of 18.9% - one of the highest figures recorded for any operator in records dating back to April 2014.

Southeastern had the second worst cancellations score with 12.2%, which was its most on record.

It was followed by Govia Thameslink Railway - which consists of Southern, Thameslink, Great Northern and Gatwick Express - and TransPennine Express, which both had a score of 11.9%.

Passengers facing 'rail crisis' as train cancellations hit record high, Office of Rail and Road data shows

The Department for Transport said it is "working closely" with operators to minimise disruption, but Labour accused the Tories of leaving the country with a "second-rate infrastructure and rail services in crisis" - while COVID and strikes have also been blamed for the poor reliability.

news.sky.com

 

[td97]

According to a Sky news Report the ORR (office of rail and road) Avanti cancellations are worst in country at 18.9%

That does not include "P-coded" services so is basically a nonsense article. I would imagine TPE should be top of the list, cancelling around 100 of their 350 services per day (around 30%).

 

[peter166]

Avanti is listing 17 cancellations today & already over 60 cancellations (P coded services) tomorrow on Journeycheck
Liverpool service is reduced to a two hourly service for much of the day.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

 

[realemil]

Avanti is listing 17 cancellations today & over 60 cancellations (P coded services) tomorrow on journeycheck

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

According to their twitter:

Due to high staff shortages, we are unfortunately expecting a large number of cancellations on Saturday 28 January.

Trains are likely to be extremely busy, and passengers should check their journey before coming to the station here:

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

According to their twitter:

"unfortunately" is a naff excuse - reality is they still haven't got a grip of their operations from this sort of level of P cancellations presumably because they still need RDW to cover the roster.

 

[Bald Rick]

"unfortunately" is a naff excuse - reality is they still haven't got a grip of their operations from this sort of level of P cancellations presumably because they still need RDW to cover the roster.

It can’t be RDW needed to cover the roster, not least because the rosters are designed not to need it under normal circumstances. Last Saturday there were only a handful of cancellations due to traincrew (about 5). Tomorrow is ten times as many, so clearly there is something extra-ordinary happening.

 

[87015]

It can’t be RDW needed to cover the roster, not least because the rosters are designed not to need it under normal circumstances. Last Saturday there were only a handful of cancellations due to traincrew (about 5). Tomorrow is ten times as many, so clearly there is something extra-ordinary happening.

End of annual leave year and not allowing staff to carry it over, so entirely Avanti's doing.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It can’t be RDW needed to cover the roster, not least because the rosters are designed not to need it under normal circumstances. Last Saturday there were only a handful of cancellations due to traincrew (about 5). Tomorrow is ten times as many, so clearly there is something extra-ordinary happening.

Is it a case of AWC imposing the new rosters and certain depots kicking up a fuss over managers managing

 

[Lost property]

What is a "P" code please ?

However, this cunning plan should alleviate all those inconvenient statistics....which I think is an utter disgrace and an insult to passengers

Avanti West Coast set to axe spate of Saturday services

Avanti West Coast says high staff shortages were to blame and refunds would be made available.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[gazzaa2]

They've given practically 24 hours notice so they realise it'll be carnage with cancellations. Unacceptable really when it's purely staff related. You could understand at this time of year if it was carnage with the weather at least causing it.

 

[jfollows]

What is a "P" code please ?

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/orr-press-release-late-notice-cancellations.242221/ for example.

It's essentially cancellation of trains before 10pm on the day prior to their operation, meaning that passengers wake up on the day and find their trains aren't running and can't claim compensation for the fact. It was designed for a reason but it's generally felt that it's being abused by a number of train operating companies, TPE primarily.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it a case of AWC imposing the new rosters and certain depots kicking up a fuss over managers managing

AIUI rosters have not been imposed. It is only Euston drivers who have yet to agree the new roster.

If it’s the end of the leave year, then that explains it.

 

[142blue]

End of annual leave year and not allowing staff to carry it over, so entirely Avanti's doing.

Allowed to use it next year if you can't get the time off now.

 

[gazzaa2]

AIUI rosters have not been imposed. It is only Euston drivers who have yet to agree the new roster.

If it’s the end of the leave year, then that explains it.

It can't just be that given they're asking passengers to travel Friday or Sunday instead.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

AIUI rosters have not been imposed. It is only Euston drivers who have yet to agree the new roster.

If it’s the end of the leave year, then that explains it.

Entirely predictable if it is as management information will tell you how much leave is outstanding and if management daft enough to say use it or lose it then this will be the outcome. If they want to retain the management contract given the current negativity seen towards you would think they would seek to avoid this sort of situation arising again.

 

[Lost property]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/orr-press-release-late-notice-cancellations.242221/ for example.

It's essentially cancellation of trains before 10pm on the day prior to their operation, meaning that passengers wake up on the day and find their trains aren't running and can't claim compensation for the fact. It was designed for a reason but it's generally felt that it's being abused by a number of train operating companies, TPE primarily.

Thanks for the explanation. I'd never heard the term before but it comes as no surprise that a valid reason for use is being abused.

 

[philosopher]

It can't just be that given they're asking passengers to travel Friday or Sunday instead.

Asking passengers to travel on Friday does rely on passengers knowing that there will be disruption on Saturday and being able to reschedule their journey accordingly. Given this disruption only appeared to be announced on Friday afternoon, how many passengers will have been able to rearrange their journey. My guess is not a lot.