How much has through running pushed up Elizabeth Line Ridership?

[Railwaysceptic]

BBC News - Elizabeth line: Commuters say service 'not what was promised'
BBC are now picking up on the overcrowding.

Anyone know what Westbound destination the extra 2tph from May will serve? (When it goes up from 22 to 24tph)

The two photos of train interiors in that link do not suggest the trains are overcrowded, least of all by London standards.

 

[Snow1964]

With almost double the numbers expected on ridership and Aventras still in production I wonder if the extra 2 carriage extensions will get signed off sooner rather than later ...

personally I can't see them being lengthened, think that is much more likely when trains get replaced in 2050s

However might order a token number of extra whole trains (I think the options would have expired by now) for extension to Old Oak. I vaguely remember original plan was signalling could handle 30 tph so could always push frequency up a bit from 24tph to 26-28tph. Would be lot easier when there are terminating platforms at Old Oak as don't have to empty and clear a train whilst another is waiting behind.

 

[cactustwirly]

I believe the plan is to CTBC up to Old Oak Common, and therefore give it the same capacity as the core section. The Reliefs will be XR only anyways as GWR stoppers are becoming semi fast from May.

Only as far as Dolphin Junction though, where the GWR semis will cross over

 

[Benjwri]

Only as far as Dolphin Junction though, where the GWR semis will cross over

Yes but the question was whether the reliefs would handle Crossrail capacity to Old Oak Common, all the trains that currently turn at Westbourne will turn there, the rest of the route won’t need more capacity.

However might order a token number of extra whole trains (I think the options would have expired by now) for extension to Old Oak.

There are already enough trains in the current fleet for Paddington terminators to be extended to Old Oak. Any further order would be prohibitively expensive as the production line has closed, so a large order would be neede to make it worthwhile.

 

[Taunton]

I have noticed the irregular frequencies, and irregular destinations between the alternating services in the core, which given the amount of slack in the timetables is surprising. The western side does seem to have the worst of it, at Slough eastbound a long interval was followed by a stone train running, at speed, right in the next Eliz train path. One wonders what the regulation approach here is. Maidenhead to Ealing is 19 miles, the Eliz trains are timetabled for 32 minutes, that's 36mph overall, the stone trains run faster than that so should not really get in the way. Notably some spirited running (not skipping stops) made up quite an amount of the delay, but was then all lost again by a 6 minute stand at Westbourne Park.

 

[Acton1991]

Six trains per hour in West London isn't enough. Every 10 minutes in locations like West Ealing and Acton Main Line will not keep up with demand which is constantly increasing. TfL need to look at ways to increase the service provision.

 

[ELfan]

Yes trains are busy but comments about overcrowding really are overstated. If they increase the Heathrow trains to 6tph in peak from May then that already gives a 50% increase in capacity for stations like Acton. Hopefully it will then cope until 2028/2030 when the current Heathrow Express franchise will end and Old Oak Common opens. I can't see them increasing capacity further before then.

 

[Benjwri]

Six trains per hour in West London isn't enough. Every 10 minutes in locations like West Ealing and Acton Main Line will not keep up with demand which is constantly increasing. TfL need to look at ways to increase the service provision.

TfL can’t solve the issue, the GWML reliefs are at capacity, there’s no way to expand services. It’s a NR issue if any, but how busy actually are trains? Demand isn’t infinite, it won’t keep expanding at the current rate.

 

[Acton1991]

The morning peak is noticeably worse - the evenings seem fine. I believe the issues are a combination of morning Heathrow arrivals causing lots of passengers with luggage to use the line at one time, along with the limited number of frequencies at certain stations pushing lots of commuters onto the same train.

Additionally, the forward/backward facing seats cause bottlenecks as passengers don’t tend to want to stand in the middle of them, which therefore bunches everyone stood up towards the ends of the carriages.

Also, when customers are leaning against the door open/close buttons, that locks the door from opening which, again, causes issues with boarding distribution.

Whilst the trains aren’t as crammed as the tube in rush hour, the limited frequency vs the tube causes frustration - eg I can’t just wait 2 minutes for the next one, as the next service is in 15 minutes time.

 

[coppercapped]

TfL can’t solve the issue, the GWML reliefs are at capacity, there’s no way to expand services. It’s a NR issue if any, but how busy actually are trains? Demand isn’t infinite, it won’t keep expanding at the current rate.

Quite so. However if demand does increase over the next few years and the train frequency also increases - a characteristic of all metro systems - then I would suggest that TfL can, and should, solve the issue. Higher frequency of the Elizabeth line trains will all but make the Western's Relief Lines unusable for freight and the residual outer suburban service. Any additional outer suburban trains which may be required in the future for additional services along the Vale of the White Horse to Swindon or additional services to Oxford and the Cotswolds or along the Berks and Hants would be impossible.

[1] It may need a bit of help from the Treasury...

 

[Horizon22]

BBC News - Elizabeth line: Commuters say service 'not what was promised'
BBC are now picking up on the overcrowding.

Anyone know what Westbound destination the extra 2tph from May will serve? (When it goes up from 22 to 24tph)

It wouldn't - it would be an additional Abbey Wood-Paddington.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It wouldn't - it would be an additional Abbey Wood-Paddington.

Ah, that's a shame - thanks

 

[Horizon22]

I have noticed the irregular frequencies, and irregular destinations between the alternating services in the core, which given the amount of slack in the timetables is surprising. The western side does seem to have the worst of it, at Slough eastbound a long interval was followed by a stone train running, at speed, right in the next Eliz train path. One wonders what the regulation approach here is. Maidenhead to Ealing is 19 miles, the Eliz trains are timetabled for 32 minutes, that's 36mph overall, the stone trains run faster than that so should not really get in the way. Notably some spirited running (not skipping stops) made up quite an amount of the delay, but was then all lost again by a 6 minute stand at Westbourne Park.

Only because the December (November really) timetable was whacked on top of the existing timetable and had to merge with the rest of the service in the core. To keep the freuency every 3-4 minutes there and without a substantial timetable change you get these fudges. May '23 should be much cleaner.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2023 ==

Ah, that's a shame - thanks

There will be off-peak though an additional Shenfield - Heathrow T4.

 

[Mojo]

Much of urban Hillingdon, along the Uxbridge Road, is nowhere near railway or Underground, and there was a longstanding express bus along this road that went all the way to Shepherds Bush and the Central Line. It does seem reasonable to realign routes to feed into the Elizabeth stations.

That is the purpose of the 278 route, which started in December 2019 and even has a couple of the buses on the route in garish "Elizabeth line" livery with purple lights on the side. This links into Crossrail services at Hayes & Harlington railway station as well as going to Heathrow Central bus station.

 

[Acton1991]

Another Sunday with reduced service in the west. No trains at all at Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell, or T5. You can see why people are complaining.

 

[Horizon22]

Another Sunday with reduced service in the west. No trains at all at Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell, or T5. You can see why people are complaining.

Not going to end any time soon - with HS2 works everything is on the Main lines so that means no trains at those stations. Unless platforms are rebuilt there, better get used to it. At least it’s not too awful to hop on a bus to Ealing or Southall or use the Tube

 

[cactustwirly]

Another Sunday with reduced service in the west. No trains at all at Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell, or T5. You can see why people are complaining.

This has been the case for years.
The Sunday timetable has always based upon a partial 2 track railway for maintenance etc

 

[Acton1991]

This has been the case for years.
The Sunday timetable has always based upon a partial 2 track railway for maintenance etc

'The way it's always been' isn't a very customer-orientated mindset

 

[coppercapped]

'The way it's always been' isn't a very customer-orientated mindset

So what would you suggest?

Maintenance of the way and works has to be carried out at some time otherwise the inevitable consequences will also not be very 'customer orientated'. As Acton Main Line station only has platforms on the Relief Lines it follows automatically that if the Reliefs are closed then nothing can stop there. Alternatively if the Mains are closed the extra traffic density means that, as a relatively minor inner suburban station, the paths tend to be allocated to longer distance traffic.

A possible solution would be to re-open the platforms serving the Mains to reduce the effects of week-end and late-night engineering work. I presume a lift would be necessary to reach the Down Main platform these days as well as other changes such as lighting and probably the track alignment or platform edge work as the platform has not been used for - ooh - at least the last 50 years... Any Relief Line traffic diverted to the Mains at Portobello or Ladbroke Grove junctions cannot regain the Reliefs (with the current track layout) until Southall West junction. That limits capacity - even on a Sunday.

And just wait until the civils works on the GW station at Old Oak Common start - long blockades are in the offing.

Within 2km of Acton Main Line station, there are 4 other Tube stations as well as many bus routes - many others would love to have the perceived issues that affect Acton Main Line.

 

[Benjwri]

As Acton Main Line station only has platforms on the Relief Lines it follows automatically that if the Reliefs are closed then nothing can stop there.

Even if it had fast platforms it’s highly unlikely much would stop, would impede the fast services too much.

I presume a lift would be necessary to reach the Down Main platform these days as well as other changes such as lighting and probably the track alignment or platform edge work as the platform has not been used for - ooh - at least the last 50 years...

The entire down main platform (Platform 1) at Acton Main Line was demolished in the 60s, and the land it sat on is now owned by a builders yard. Restoring it is pretty much impossible, and would require even more disruption.