Maltese cross restrictions

[wearytraveller]

Hi all

You gave me very helpful similar advice here, but I've got a related question...

I intend to buy an off-peak return from Harpenden to Brighton tomorrow, returning the following week.

If I get off at Farringdon, catch the Elizabeth line to Canary Wharf, work for the afternoon, go to a party then go to London Bridge around 9pm to continue my journey to Brighton, would either of those tube journeys be covered with that ticket?

 

[jfollows]

Maltese Cross allows you to go from Farringdon to anywhere else in zone 1 but Canary Wharf is in zone 2 so you can't use it for this. The only "different" thing you can do with a Maltese Cross is that you can exit at a zone 1 station which isn't your onward railway station, but you can't then resume your journey by tube either - it's a "one journey to a zone 1 destination" ticket.

So, no, you should pay for your journeys to/from Canary Wharf.

EDIT To expand on this slightly - you can't "break your journey" with a Maltese Cross. If, hypothetically, you were working and then at a party in Leicester Square (say) instead of Canary Wharf, you could use the ticket to go from Farringdon to Leicester Square only, and would then have to pay for an onward journey later to London Bridge. Because Canary Wharf is in zone 2, though, the first leg of your journey there from Farringdon isn't covered by the Maltese Cross anyway.

FURTHER EDIT My "zone 1" is wrong, however for this particular ticket it's correct that it can't be used to Canary Wharf, explanatory updates and corrections later in this thread.

 

[miklcct]

Maltese Cross allows you to go from Farringdon to anywhere else in zone 1 but Canary Wharf is in zone 2 so you can't use it for this. The only "different" thing you can do with a Maltese Cross is that you can exit at a zone 1 station which isn't your onward railway station, but you can't then resume your journey by tube either - it's a "one journey to a zone 1 destination" ticket.

So, no, you should pay for your journeys to/from Canary Wharf.

EDIT To expand on this slightly - you can't "break your journey" with a Maltese Cross. If, hypothetically, you were working and then at a party in Leicester Square (say) instead of Canary Wharf, you could use the ticket to go from Farringdon to Leicester Square only, and would then have to pay for an onward journey later to London Bridge. Because Canary Wharf is in zone 2, though, the first leg of your journey there from Farringdon isn't covered by the Maltese Cross anyway.

There is no restriction that a Maltese Cross is only valid on zone 1. It can be used to cross to any appropriate station in any zone, even as far as Amersham, as long as it is on your valid route. In this example, you are perfectly entitled to use it at West Hampstead, which is in zone 2.

The reason that you can't use it at Canary Wharf is that it is out of your valid cross London transfer route. Your National Rail valid routes from Harpenden include St Pancras and Euston, which also pass through West Hampstead, Kentish Town and Queen's Park, while your National Rail valid routes to Brighton include all the former Southern Region terminals so you can cross to one of these (I'm not sure if Canada Water, Brixton or Elephant & Castle are also on the permitted route as well).

If your destination is, instead, on the North Kent line, you are then perfectly entitled to break your journey there on the way to Abbey Wood.

 

[mangyiscute]

I thought that there was a certain list of stations that you could enter or exit at, or you can exit at any station on the way to those stations: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx
Therefore, since Canary Wharf would be on the way between say Stratford and London Bridge, you could get off there using this ticket. I don't recall anything about zone 1 being important, since you can use it to say Tottenham Hale or Stratford.
It's important to note though that while you can end a tube journey short (so you could say travel from Paddington to Great Portland Street if you were meant to do Paddington to Kings Cross) you cannot start a tube journey short so you definitely won't be able to enter Canary Wharf with this ticket.
If it was me, I would join the Elizabeth line at Farringdon, see if it allows me to exit at Canary Wharf (you can also ask staff and they might let you through) and if it doesn't let you through, just use your oyster/contactless to exit and then go online and complete the incomplete journey refund saying that you entered at Farringdon.

To be clear, you are only meant to use the ticket between the london terminals that you could be travelling to/from on the ticket, in this case I guess it's like any Thameslink Station to Victoria or London Bridge but it's very vague with what valid routings are (for example could you take a tube to Charing Cross to then take a train to London Bridge and change onto the Brighton train) so I don't think you would have any issues with using it to Canary Wharf

 

[Watershed]

Hi all

You gave me very helpful similar advice here, but I've got a related question...

I intend to buy an off-peak return from HPD to BTN tomorrow, returning the following week.

If I get off at ZFD, catch the Elizabeth line to Canary Wharf, work for the afternoon, go to a party then go to LBG around 9pm to continue my journey to BTN, would either of those tube journeys be covered with that ticket?

No, neither the Elizabeth line journey to Canary Wharf nor the Tube from Canary Wharf to London Bridge (LBG) would be valid on such a ticket. Whilst a ticket from Harpenden (HPD) to Brighton (BTN) includes a cross-London transfer, this firstly cannot be resumed if you break your journey during the transfer, and secondly the route of the transfer must be reasonable. I don't think that going via Canary Wharf could be claimed as a reasonable route for getting between Farringdon and London Bridge, when there are many other alternative options that involve staying within Zone 1.

Maltese Cross allows you to go from Farringdon to anywhere else in zone 1 but Canary Wharf is in zone 2 so you can't use it for this. The only "different" thing you can do with a Maltese Cross is that you can exit at a zone 1 station which isn't your onward railway station, but you can't then resume your journey by tube either - it's a "one journey to a zone 1 destination" ticket.

So, no, you should pay for your journeys to/from Canary Wharf.

EDIT To expand on this slightly - you can't "break your journey" with a Maltese Cross. If, hypothetically, you were working and then at a party in Leicester Square (say) instead of Canary Wharf, you could use the ticket to go from Farringdon to Leicester Square only, and would then have to pay for an onward journey later to London Bridge. Because Canary Wharf is in zone 2, though, the first leg of your journey there from Farringdon isn't covered by the Maltese Cross anyway.

Maltese Cross tickets can be valid for travel outside Zone 1. For example, "+Any Permitted" tickets between stations on the West Anglia Main Line and the West Coast Main Line are valid for a cross-London transfer between Euston and Tottenham Hale, which is in Zone 3. The issue is that transfers must be by a reasonably direct route, and clearly going via Canary Wharf isn't.

 

[jfollows]

Maltese Cross tickets can be valid for travel outside Zone 1. For example, "+Any Permitted" tickets between stations on the West Anglia Main Line and the West Coast Main Line are valid for a cross-London transfer between Euston and Tottenham Hale, which is in Zone 3. The issue is that transfers must be by a reasonably direct route, and clearly going via Canary Wharf isn't.

Thank you - that's a good point. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx has a "List of London Underground, Elizabeth line, and DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used - subject to route of the through journey being made" so a ticket Harpenden-Brighton wouldn't be valid to Canary Wharf as we're all saying, it's just that my "zone 1" comment above wasn't accurate.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thank you - that's a good point. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx has a "List of London Underground, Elizabeth line, and DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used - subject to route of the through journey being made" so a ticket Harpenden-Brighton wouldn't be valid to Canary Wharf as we're all saying, it's just that my "zone 1" comment above wasn't accurate.

Interesting that Eliz Line is mentioned here as part of what you can use if you have cross-London validity, along with Underground and DLR. Since it's a part of the NR network, I assumed that a "through ticket" that reasonably took you via London via that line would be usable without a Maltese Cross, since you're on an "ordinary" NR itinerary.

 

[Watershed]

Interesting that Eliz Line is mentioned here as part of what you can use if you have cross-London validity, along with Underground and DLR. Since it's a part of the NR network, I assumed that a "through ticket" that reasonably took you via London via that line would be usable without a Maltese Cross, since you're on an "ordinary" NR itinerary.

TfL like to pretend that the Elizabeth line magically ceases to be part of the National Rail network in the core, and that Underground validity (e.g. through a Maltese cross) is required.

They even go so far as to claim that people with tickets from the Great Eastern to London Terminals cannot get off at Whitechapel, as they are purportedly only valid to travel to Liverpool Street under the same interavailability arrangements that allow the use of the Central line from Stratford.

It's absolutely insupportable, given that they then try to have their cake and eat it by (correctly) maintaining Underground tickets cannot be used out to Heathrow.

 

[miklcct]

Has anyone tried to use a ticket, marked with "London Not Underground", at Paddington trying to go to Farringdon?

They even go so far as to claim that people with tickets from the Great Eastern to London Terminals cannot get off at Whitechapel, as they are purportedly only valid to travel to Liverpool Street under the same interavailability arrangements that allow the use of the Central line from Stratford.

The barrier at Whitechapel is configured to allow such London Terminals tickets, for example, Ipswich to London Terminals, to be used for breaking the journey, according to TRU112.

 

[yorkie]

Has anyone tried to use a ticket, marked with "London Not Underground", at Paddington trying to go to Farringdon?

Please create a new thread if you have a specific journey in mind, however be aware that if you expose a loophole, it will likely be closed.

 

[Haywain]

Has anyone tried to use a ticket, marked with "London Not Underground", at Paddington trying to go to Farringdon?

What origin and destination does the ticket have?

 

[Mojo]

There is no restriction that a Maltese Cross is only valid on zone 1. It can be used to cross to any appropriate station in any zone, even as far as Amersham, as long as it is on your valid route. In this example, you are perfectly entitled to use it at West Hampstead, which is in zone 2.

The reason that you can't use it at Canary Wharf is that it is out of your valid cross London transfer route. Your National Rail valid routes from Harpenden include St Pancras and Euston, which also pass through West Hampstead, Kentish Town and Queen's Park, while your National Rail valid routes to Brighton include all the former Southern Region terminals so you can cross to one of these (I'm not sure if Canada Water, Brixton or Elephant & Castle are also on the permitted route as well).

I don't believe he said that it wasn't valid outside of zone 1, however a ticket being used for a cross-London transfer may be used to finish short at any station in zone 1, or any station on a reasonable route between the interchange stations.

 

[mangyiscute]

What origin and destination does the ticket have?

What about something like a Swindon to London Terminals ticket being used to Liverpool Street - the issue is I expect the ticket lines at Paddington would swallow the ticket, so you'd have to change onto the Elizabeth line somewhere earlier, and also it would be interesting to see the reaction of the Liverpool Street gateline staff when you turn up there

 

[Haywain]

What about something like a Swindon to London Terminals ticket being used to Liverpool Street - the issue is I expect the ticket lines at Paddington would swallow the ticket, so you'd have to change onto the Elizabeth line somewhere earlier, and also it would be interesting to see the reaction of the Liverpool Street gateline staff when you turn up there

But that's not a ticket routed 'London not underground', and not going to Farringdon, which is what @miklcct asked about.

 

[miklcct]

But that's not a ticket routed 'London not underground', and not going to Farringdon, which is what @miklcct asked about.

I don't want to disclose the exact flow here as it is a loophole, and some of the similar flows have been fixed already.

These "London not Underground" tickets are intended for travel via Thameslink to Farringdon, which was the only way before Elizabeth line opened without using the tube.

 

[AlbertBeale]

What about something like a Swindon to London Terminals ticket being used to Liverpool Street - the issue is I expect the ticket lines at Paddington would swallow the ticket, so you'd have to change onto the Elizabeth line somewhere earlier, and also it would be interesting to see the reaction of the Liverpool Street gateline staff when you turn up there

I can't see that a London Terminals ticket (which is generally taken to mean to a terminal on the side of London you're arriving from, not one on the opposite side) would work here. If a London Terminals ticket from the south isn't valid right through to St Pancras (even though it's an NR route through), and one from the north isn't valid as far as London Bridge, similarly one from the west presumably "stops" at Paddington at the latest. But this isn't the main point at issue in this discussion anyway.

 

[Watershed]

The barrier at Whitechapel is configured to allow such London Terminals tickets, for example, Ipswich to London Terminals, to be used for breaking the journey, according to TRU112.

I haven't tested it personally, but that does not at all match what TfL have said in later industry briefs, where they have claimed that break of journey at Whitechapel isn't permitted.