What routes would there be scope for converting to a European loading gauge?

[ShadowKnight]

Irrespective of Schengen, Great Britain is outwith mainland Europe, and running sleeper services via the Channel Tunnel is problematic. The British loading gauge is also restrictive, reducing the number of passengers who can be transported in sleeping cars.

Also. do sleeper services really reduce the carbon footprint overall compared to travelling by Ryanair/Wizzair? I accept that daytime passenger rail services would probably do so on journeys of less than 500 km.

mods note - split from this thread

Tangentially to this I have wondered what routes would there be scope for converting to a European loading gauge

 

[zwk500]

Tangentially to this I have wondered what routes would there be scope for converting to a European loading gauge

HS1 is (and HS2 will be) cleared to UIC GB+/GC gauge*. Clearing any other routes for UIC gauges would be next to impossible because the UK platforms stick out a lot further than UIC platform heights. The stepping distance is too great so you'd need British gauge trains with extendable steps during a transition period. And it'd destroy through running capabilities until the rest of the network is converted. Trying to do a line-by-line conversion would be decades of disruption and changing the timetable completely every year or so as you juggle stock around to lines it can manage. Given the limited scope for through running from Europe it isn't justified.

The actual difference in structure gauge is about 30cm taller at the centre and 30cm wider across the track. I think the Arch is also shallower than normal British gauges. You'd need to rebuild every single platform and OLE mast, and the overwhelming majority of bridges and lineside signs etc. You'd also potentially need to rebuild a few underbridges. It would cost billions for any route worth doing it to.

*I believe the Crossrail Core tunnels are also built to accept GB+/GC gauge, but the platforms are built to UK standards. Not sure about the refitted infrastructure on the Abbey Wood Branch.

 

[popeter45]

HS1 is (and HS2 will be) cleared to UIC GB+/GC gauge*. Clearing any other routes for UIC gauges would be next to impossible because the UK platforms stick out a lot further than UIC platform heights. The stepping distance is too great so you'd need British gauge trains with extendable steps during a transition period. And it'd destroy through running capabilities until the rest of the network is converted. Trying to do a line-by-line conversion would be decades of disruption and changing the timetable completely every year or so as you juggle stock around to lines it can manage. Given the limited scope for through running from Europe it isn't justified.

The actual difference in structure gauge is about 30cm taller at the centre and 30cm wider across the track. I think the Arch is also shallower than normal British gauges. You'd need to rebuild every single platform and OLE mast, and the overwhelming majority of bridges and lineside signs etc. You'd also potentially need to rebuild a few underbridges. It would cost billions for any route worth doing it to.

*I believe the Crossrail Core tunnels are also built to accept GB+/GC gauge, but the platforms are built to UK standards. Not sure about the refitted infrastructure on the Abbey Wood Branch.

What would prob be the best option their would be general conversation but with temporary extended platforms that once a area is ready are all removed over a single period like a Christmas works period, akin to when Sweden changed what side of the road they drive on

Main advantage of ever moving to European loading gauge would prob me way cheaper to procure rolling stock as can tap into already existing market of EMUs like talent 3's, locomotives like vectrons and second hand market of stuff like UIC carriages and alike
If it would offset the cost of conversation is a different question all together

 

[zwk500]

What would prob be the best option their would be general conversation but with temporary extended platforms that once a area is ready are all removed over a single period like a Christmas works period, akin to when Sweden changed what side of the road they drive on

In an ideal world, but the network has something like 10,000 stations so even with 'big bangs' it's going to be painful. And that's before you consider depots, walking routes, sign placements etc. You've also got to rebuild every platform twice in this case.

Main advantage of ever moving to European loading gauge would prob me way cheaper to procure rolling stock as can tap into already existing market of EMUs like talent 3's, locomotives like vectrons and second hand market of stuff like UIC carriages and alike
If it would offset the cost of conversation is a different question all together

I was once involved in a project looking at freight clearances between the Channel Tunnel and London, and the difference between clearing the route for W12 was something like 3 or 4 times the cost of clearing it for W9a, purely because of the number of bridges that were fine for W9a but not for W12. It would cost billions. It would eventually pay itself back, as once the line is rebuilt there's no additional ongoing cost, but stock does have to be replaced on a regular basis. However whether it can justify itself against the longest borrowing that could be secured is a different question.

 

[Bald Rick]

And that's before you consider depots, walking routes, sign placements etc. You've also got to rebuild every platform twice in this case.

And rebuild most junctions, due to different fouling points. And lift the OLE. Etc.

. It would eventually pay itself back

I’m reasonably confident that it wouldnt! Except, possibly, a couple of edge cases.

 

[zwk500]

And rebuild most junctions, due to different fouling points. And lift the OLE. Etc.

In essence, every single aspect of anything involved with a railway. Including potentially track centres which will be fun at Level Crossings. Or areas with houses up to the boundaries.

I’m reasonably confident that it wouldnt! Except, possibly, a couple of edge cases.

Tbf it's possible the savings from more standard trains and better capacity still wouldn't offset the costs before personal teleporters become widespread.

 

[Bald Rick]

Tbf it's possible the savings from more standard trains

It would be interesting to compare normalised costs of EMUs built for the GB market and for the European market. I’d be willing to bet there is practically nothing in it.

 

[zwk500]

It would be interesting to compare normalised costs of EMUs built for the GB market and for the European market. I’d be willing to bet there is practically nothing in it.

I've seen numbers between 0 and 30% quoted before. I suspect that the cost of other changes that have nothing to do with loading gauge cause much more cost than shrinking the design by 10% or so. Either way we're not going to be rebuilding the railway for a wider loading gauge. Berne gauge was defined in 1912, so if it hasn't been worth it for 111 years I don't see why it'd suddenly make sense now.

 

[popeter45]

I've seen numbers between 0 and 30% quoted before. I suspect that the cost of other changes that have nothing to do with loading gauge cause much more cost than shrinking the design by 10% or so. Either way we're not going to be rebuilding the railway for a wider loading gauge. Berne gauge was defined in 1912, so if it hasn't been worth it for 111 years I don't see why it'd suddenly make sense now.

Yea rebuilding just for GC alone won't make sense thou really think a policy of building new infrastructure/when rebuilds of existing infrastructure is needed to make it to larger standards, maybe convert a few lines to GC operation when nothing else really uses the line e.g. Romford to upminister

In terms of crossrail feels like a potentially wasted opportunity, eastern leg is entirely separate track and most of Western leg too with only really the 387s at a few stops to consider, could have gone full GC and double decker units like RER if they needed the capacity in the future

 

[zwk500]

Yea rebuilding just for GC alone won't make sense thou really think a policy of building new infrastructure/when rebuilds of existing infrastructure is needed to make it to larger standards, maybe convert a few lines to GC operation when nothing else really uses the line e.g. Romford to upminister

Romford to Upminster would be one of the worst cases for it. That would very much be converting to GC just for the sake of doing so.

In terms of crossrail feels like a potentially wasted opportunity, eastern leg is entirely separate track and most of Western leg too with only really the 387s at a few stops to consider, could have gone full GC and double decker units like RER if they needed the capacity in the future

Connaught Tunnel would have been a massive problem, the 387s can't just be ignored, and the Electric lines north of Stratford can be shared with other trains when needed. If they need the capacity later then at least the tunnels have been done.

 

[Bald Rick]

maybe convert a few lines to GC operation when nothing else really uses the line e.g. Romford to upminister

How would you get the train there each morning?