Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[Jamesrob637]

Are 231s diagrammed for weekends currently or no?

Saturdays, not Sundays, if other new trains are anything to go by.

 

[Jez]

I ended up doing Cardiff Central to Ystrad Mynach on the 1316 from Cardiff. I was a bit pushed for time otherwise id have gone all the way to Rhymney. But im pleased I've managed to try a 231 during their first week in service. Next time i will take a trip up to Rhymney. I decided to go today rather than tomorrow incase they dont run on a weekend. It was well worth taking a half day annual leave!

I was very impressed with the 231. Lovely comfortable seats, plenty of leg room (im 6ft 2), lots of table seats and nice pull down tables on the airline seats. A very smooth ride as well. The announcements can be a bit annoying but on lines with frequent stops that is the way it is. The corridor in the middle of the train is very narrow. Seems to be plenty of room for wheelchairs/push chairs etc. Overall i was impressed. And after going on the 231 and getting a 150 back from Ystrad Mynach straight after just highlighted how much an upgrade the 231's are.

I noticed there seemed to be an issue with the automated announcements, they announced Aber when it should have been Caerphilly. The guard then made a manuel annoucement that the next stop would indeed be Caerphilly not Aber. On the 150 coming back there was an issue too as they announced Caerphilly when it should have been Aber. So im wondering if there is a glitch in the system generally rather than it being specific to the 231.

 

[AdamWW]

I noticed there seemed to be an issue with the automated announcements, they announced Aber when it should have been Caerphilly. The guard then made a manuel annoucement that the next stop would indeed be Caerphilly not Aber. On the 150 coming back there was an issue too as they announced Caerphilly when it should have been Aber. So im wondering if there is a glitch in the system generally rather than it being specific to the 231.

I've known the system on Sprinters etc. to get out of sync sometimes, but normally in my experience it's fine.

Both times I've been on a 231 this week it announced Cardiff Central as Grangetown.

I doubt that the announcement systems on the 150's and 231's have much in common.

The announcements can be a bit annoying but on lines with frequent stops that is the way it is.

At least they no longer do a very longwinded Covid "travel safe" announcement After Every Single Stop. In two languages.

 

[Jez]

I've known the system on Sprinters etc. to get out of sync sometimes, but normally in my experience it's fine.

Both times I've been on a 231 this week it announced Cardiff Central as Grangetown.

I doubt that the announcement systems on the 150's and 231's have much in common.

I agree. But I just found it strange how both did similar things. The opposite way around on the 150 announcing Aber as Caerphllly. It seemed to correct itself when it got to Caerphilly however.

 

[AdamWW]

I agree. But I just found it strange how both did similar things. The opposite way around on the 150 announcing Aber as Caerphllly. It seemed to correct itself when it got to Caerphilly however.

Maybe the 150 thought that Aber station was still closed?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, it appears so. And these are four car units too, vice two, so by rights Monsieur @Rhydgaled should take greater issue with these than the 197s Still, more than the 398s will get.

I do 'take issue' with the 398s being used north of Taffs Well and, less vocally, with the lack of toilets on Crossrail Aventras.

The class 197s have been ordered to serve a very different role to the TfW FLIRTs - the FLIRTs will run inner-suburban and outer-suburban services where the provision of toilets is less important. This is reflected in the Rail Delivery Group's best practice (the Key Train Requirements) which specifies 85 seats per toilet (or better) for intercity or inter-urban services, but allows up to 125 seats per toilet for short distance / commuter services. Here's how the specification of TfW 150s and FLIRTs (as well as the Thameslink class 700s) compares to that target:

• TfW class 150= 111 seats per toilet
• 4-car class 231 = 171 seats per toilet
• 3-car class 756 = 119 seats per toilet
• 4-car class 756 = 159 seats per toilet
• 8-car class 700 = 142 seats per toilet
• 12-car class 700 = 133 seats per toilet

In light of this data, perhaps I should have 'taken issue' with the 4-car FLIRTs as well but it still isn't as important an issue as the 197s.

Although the class 231 has more seats than the 4-car 756, the total capacity (including standing) is almost identical.

Remember these are ultimately for the longer rides to Cheltenham, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale, they will include a few luxuries such as tables. Not sure the 768's have the same. We will see.

I thought the 756's were basically just tri-mode versions of the 231's? Would TFW spec them differently?

Yes. The specifications are surprisingly different - see the Suburban Rolling Stock Specifications (table 2c) and Core Valley Lines Rolling Stock Specifications (table 2d) for more details. For example, the tri-modes are only spec'ed for 75mph while the DEMUs are listed as 100mph units.

four-car 756s (are supposed to) have 158 seats, 231s have 170 (see here). the difference is because the 756s have an extra door which takes up the same amount of space as three rows of seats, not because there's any difference in table provision (both have 21).

Interesting: the TfW tables I linked above seem to have the 4-car tri-modes with 24 tables and the 231s with 21, but other sources seem to suggest both have at least 24. Another difference is that the Stadler data sheet shows the class 231s as 90mph units rather than the 100mph given in the TfW tables.

Glad to see they're going down well in Wales. 745s and 755s have identical interiors besides first and a buffet in the 745/0s and no tables, first or buffet in the 745/1s. They look amazing in the snow, see this pic (although this was at 100mph so the Welsh Flirts won't be doing those speeds).
These will transform the passenger experience in Wales, expect many ooh and aahs for a long time to come, especially from Sprinters.

Depending on which source is correct and whether they are permitted to use HST differential linespeeds, class 231s should be able to reach their 90mph top speed or close to their 100mph top speed once redeployed to their intended routes. There are some stretches where the linespeed is HST 90 or HST 95 between the Severn Tunnel and Cardiff (there is also a HST 100 through Pyle, but my current understanding is that the 231s aren't intended to work west of Bridgend on the line towards Swansea).

I do hope the 398s we're getting up the Rhondda can live up to these despite there inherent differences.

I doubt it; as well as not having toilets it looks like the tram-trains will have fewer or no tables compared to the FLIRTs.

One question I have though is I note that the seats all have numbers on and have space for the paper reservations. Given the routes these trains will run on, why are seat numbers and paper reservation spaces available? That's a bit of a backwards step in my opinion. Seat numbers are useless without reservations and the metro area doesn't need people booking seat reservations. The seat numbers also look like very cheap paper stickers. No expense spent on them. I think remove them and it would all look a lot nicer.

Maybe there is hope that TfW are thinking of re-introducing reservations on their longer routes then. I agree that the Metro with 4tph to the heads of the valleys won't need reservations, but remember the class 231s are only a stop-gap solution in the Core Valleys. The 231s are of course intended for services out to Cheltenham Spa, more outer-suburban than Metro.

They aren't very efficient are they only 170 seats in 80m you'd get 294 on a 4 car 150.

I think a pair of TfW 150s would give you 222 seats, not 294. Are you talking about the Northern class 150s with 2+3 seating?

Still, the TfW 150s would give you two toilets, so that is still more space-efficient but should we really be comparing them as 80 metres or should we consider the FLIRTs to be 73.5 metres in this case (since the FLIRTs have the unfurnishable diesel power module adding the remaining 7 metres). One thing we don't have here is seat spacing measurements - the legroom on 150s is certainly dire, what's it like on the 231s?

 

[Jez]

A quick look at RTT and can't see any 231s out today. Happy that I went on one yesterday now as originally i was planning Saturday!

 

[AdamWW]

Yes. The specifications are surprisingly different - see the Suburban Rolling Stock Specifications (table 2c) and Core Valley Lines Rolling Stock Specifications (table 2d) for more details. For example, the tri-modes are only spec'ed for 75mph while the DEMUs are listed as 100mph units.

Interesting documents.

Nice to see "seats aligned with windows" as a criterion. Though I'm not sure how they apply it since 150's apparently meet it. And 142's don't. I know which of the two I found easier to see out of and it wasn't the 150's.

 

[el_lnrd]

Hello,

It doesn't seem like there are any class 231 running today, am I right?

 

[Jez]

Hello,

It doesn't seem like there are any class 231 running today, am I right?

Didnt seem to be when I checked RTT earlier this morning. Appears there is a 150 on the diagram the 231 was used on this week.

I wonder what the reason is the 231 isnt used after 4pm and at weekends. I noticed quite a few train crew on it yesterday so perhaps as its a new train more need to be on it and there isnt enough to cover weekends.

 

[AlexNL]

I wonder what the reason is the 231 isnt used after 4pm and at weekends.

Availability of a Stadler fitter perhaps?

 

[Jez]

I saw TFW replied to someone on twitter that the 231 is only booked for Monday-Friday at the moment.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Interesting documents.

Nice to see "seats aligned with windows" as a criterion. Though I'm not sure how they apply it since 150's apparently meet it. And 142's don't. I know which of the two I found easier to see out of and it wasn't the 150's.

I agree, their idea of "seats aligned with windows" doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Alfie1014]

I do 'take issue' with the 398s being used north of Taffs Well and, less vocally, with the lack of toilets on Crossrail Aventras.

The class 197s have been ordered to serve a very different role to the TfW FLIRTs - the FLIRTs will run inner-suburban and outer-suburban services where the provision of toilets is less important. This is reflected in the Rail Delivery Group's best practice (the Key Train Requirements) which specifies 85 seats per toilet (or better) for intercity or inter-urban services, but allows up to 125 seats per toilet for short distance / commuter services. Here's how the specification of TfW 150s and FLIRTs (as well as the Thameslink class 700s) compares to that target:

• TfW class 150= 111 seats per toilet
• 4-car class 231 = 171 seats per toilet
• 3-car class 756 = 119 seats per toilet
• 4-car class 756 = 159 seats per toilet
• 8-car class 700 = 142 seats per toilet
• 12-car class 700 = 133 seats per toilet

GA’s 720s have 1 toilet per 270 seats and even the well liked 745s only have 1 toilet per 142-144 seats.

 

[Jez]

231007 appears to be back in service today on the same diagram.

 

[AdamWW]

They seem to be confident enough now about passenger running to try a little low key publicity:

 

[MikePJ]

231007 appears to be back in service today on the same diagram.

And running to time, as of 1053 today...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They seem to be confident enough now about passenger running

Well, they have been operational four working days in a row!
Ironically, that’s a 398 in the picture.

 

[Kyle2]

Any chance of more 231 units starting to enter service anytime soon?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well, they have been operational four working days in a row!
Ironically, that’s a 398 in the picture.

Well that is a healthy sign (I find myself scared I am tempting fate) better than most new fleet introductions ?.

Any chance of more 231 units starting to enter service anytime soon?

More likely than with other fleets as some of those four days there have been two (or three ?) also out on test/training. Four out of 11 is 36% !.

 

[Com166]

Being delivered by postman round Cardiff

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

231001 on today’s FLIRT diagram, while 007 has a rest.

 

[AgeoftheTrain7]

Being delivered by postman round Cardiff

Seems like most people up the Rhymney line have had these as well!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A very tired-sounding Ruth is announcing that more trains than usual require repairs at the same time. There’s a fair few Sprinters on the Rhymney route whereas often it’s 90% 769s, so I’m wondering if the FLEXs aren’t very well this week. All the more reason to get these nice (and they are very nice) FLIRTS in mass operation (Single 153 on Radyr Barry Island via Cathays today too)


001 materialised as booked

Images show 231001 first at Cardiff Queen Street and then at Heath High Level.

 

[56xx]

231 001 now 44 late at Grangetown. 30 minute turnaround at Penarth

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

231 001 now 44 late at Grangetown. 30 minute turnaround at Penarth

I don’t blame the 231 for that. Almost everything on both Caerphilly, would-be Pontypridd (Radyr today) and Coryton were all delayed massively when I travelled two hours earlier.

 

[Dai Corner]

I don’t blame the 231 for that. Almost everything on both Caerphilly, would-be Pontypridd (Radyr today) and Coryton were all delayed massively when I travelled two hours earlier.

Journeycheck reported an 'operational incident' at Cardiff Central.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Journeycheck reported an 'operational incident' at Cardiff Central.

Ruth was blaming both “a signalling failure at Cardiff Central” and “more trains than usual requiring repairs.”

 

[Jez]

A very tired-sounding Ruth is announcing that more trains than usual require repairs at the same time. There’s a fair few Sprinters on the Rhymney route whereas often it’s 90% 769s, so I’m wondering if the FLEXs aren’t very well this week. All the more reason to get these nice (and they are very nice) FLIRTS in mass operation (Single 153 on Radyr Barry Island via Cathays today too)


001 materialised as booked

Images show 231001 first at Cardiff Queen Street and then at Heath High Level.

Good to see another 231 is in service. Fingers crossed it wont be too long before more than 1 can be in service each day and also get rid of the awful 769s and 150s on the route.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Good to see another 231 is in service. Fingers crossed it wont be too long before more than 1 can be in service each day and also get rid of the awful 769s and 150s on the route.

231004 was also on test, as spotted from a 769.

I’ve come to prefer the 769s to 150s, as much as I value armrests and tables, I often travel in the morning and the 150s are exceptionally bright, which isn’t pleasant. The 769s are darker inside and less noisy.

Two Rhymney diagrams were neither 150 or 769 today, as they came in the form of two 153 pairs. Dogbox spotters would have had a field day at Cardiff Queen Street earlier, with no less than EIGHT 153s seen at the station in the space of an hour - three singles on Radyr Coryton, a single on the Bay, a single on Radyr Barry Island, and two pairs on Rhymney/Bargoed Penarth.

Image shows 231004 leaving Cardiff Central on test.