Potential Great Western Intercity service pattern

[FGWHST43009]

Here's the revised plan:
2 tph to Bristol (1 fast, 1 semi-fast)
2 tph to Swansea (1 fast, 1 semi-fast)
2 tph to the Cotswolds (skip-stop between Oxford and Worcester)
2 tph to South West England (1 faster to Penzance, 1 semi-fast to Exeter/Plymouth/Paignton)
1 tph to Cheltenham Spa
2 tph Bristol - Oxford
1 tph Swansea - Exeter (extending every 2 hours to Penzance)

 

[tiptoptaff]

Via the vog once an hour? Get real mate. I didn't read beyond that because that alone is far from "ideal"

 

[FGWHST43009]

Via the vog once an hour? Get real mate. I didn't read beyond that because that alone is far from "ideal"

Maybe only the Exeter service will go via VoG then

 

[tiptoptaff]

I will add, infrastructure upgrades etc will be required in some places to enable these services to run, mostly on the South Wales and Cotswold lines.

You can upgrade all you like but you won't speed up the VoG much. Where does it fit in the 4tph between Barry and Cardiff

 

[FGWHST43009]

You can upgrade all you like but you won't speed up the VoG much. Where does it fit in the 4tph between Barry and Cardiff

To be fair, the VoG is quite busy between Barry and Cardiff, but ever since the line has been reopened there's only 1tph to Bridgend, so at some point more services will be needed

 

[class ep-09]

I think Slough as a station stop for Inter City services will end soon ( possibly from May TT) .
387’s semi fast Didcot trains will be stopping instead .

I stand to be corrected but that is what I was made believe.

 

[tiptoptaff]

To be fair, the VoG is quite busy between Barry and Cardiff, but ever since the line has been reopened there's only 1tph to Bridgend, so at some point more services will be needed

Which you don't fill with a 1Bravo or 1Lima. You get TfW to run a stopper or you extend the GWR regional service.

Don't force the HSS service in to a local one where you don't need to.

Run 2tph to Swansea yes, with 1tph fast West of Cardiff. But don't run one London via the VoG every hour

 

[Sleepy]

Cornwall needs hourly through services to Paddington given the extended tourism season, it's no longer a May to September affair.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Which you don't fill with a 1Bravo or 1Lima. You get TfW to run a stopper or you extend the GWR regional service.

Don't force the HSS service in to a local one where you don't need to.

Run 2tph to Swansea yes, with 1tph fast West of Cardiff. But don't run one London via the VoG every hour

Only the GWR regional will stop at Barry. I mean, it's only speculative, so not all of it would be implemented

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Which you don't fill with a 1Bravo or 1Lima. You get TfW to run a stopper or you extend the GWR regional service.

Don't force the HSS service in to a local one where you don't need to.

Run 2tph to Swansea yes, with 1tph fast West of Cardiff. But don't run one London via the VoG every hour

Having read that suggestion of I/C via the VoG , I just move on.

Agreed - 2 tph of a local service - no more than that. Diverted and extend a Barry Train. Some years ago , there was a suggestion of a "costed option" of extending an ex Portsmouth service beyond Cardiff via the VoG , it did not stack up , so it never happened.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Cornwall needs hourly through services to Paddington given the extended tourism season, it's no longer a May to September affair.

If that's the case then the hourly Plymouth fast can become an hourly Penzance service

 

[tiptoptaff]

Having read that suggestion of I/C via the VoG , I just move on.

Agreed - 2 tph of a local service - no more than that. Diverted and extend a Barry Train. Some years ago , there was a suggestion of a "costed option" of extending an ex Portsmouth service beyond Cardiff via the VoG , it did not stack up , so it never happened.

Wasn't that due to the Hybriding of the 158s? Was to do with Cardiff Airport traffic IIRC.

A 2nd Swansea per hour via the Mainline is a good idea, but I envisage that would be an extension of the Taunton/Penzance or Portsmouth services.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Wasn't that due to the Hybriding of the 158s? Was to do with Cardiff Airport traffic IIRC.

A 2nd Swansea per hour via the Mainline is a good idea, but I envisage that would be an extension of the Taunton/Penzance or Portsmouth services.

I don't think there's really much point calling Rhoose as a stop for Cardiff Airport, there are barely any flights going to or from Cardiff.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don't think there's really much point calling Rhoose as a stop for Cardiff Airport, there are barely any flights going to or from Cardiff.

Even less flights now that Whizzair has withdrawn. Cardiff Airport is not thriving.

Some pressure / ideas of extending a South Wales regional - via the main line , not the VoG towards the major destination of Temple Meads and the West Country.

 

[lachlan]

Via the vog once an hour? Get real mate. I didn't read beyond that because that alone is far from "ideal"

Vog?

 

[43096]

Vog?

Vale of Glamorgan.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I agree with this.

You should be hourly London to Cornwall, and have no London to Paignton as a result. Quite honestly, the half-hourly Paignton to Exeter is more than adequate.

If it can be made to work…
- Hourly London to Cornwall
- Hourly Newquay to Falmouth (fullness of time)
- Hourly Exeter to Penzance overlay stopper (probably using a 5/802)
- Hourly Cardiff to Exeter (this is probably 4/158 territory)
- Hourly Cross Country to Plymouth, with some extensions to Newquay when suitable given the potential glut of Voyagers coming online.
- Extend the Manchester to Bristol hourly (which should come back) to Paignton every two hours.
- Half-hourly Paignton slow, honestly don’t care where they come from.

Makes sense to me, at least.

Cornwall needs hourly through services to Paddington given the extended tourism season, it's no longer a May to September affair.

 

[FGWHST43009]

I agree with this.

You should be hourly London to Cornwall, and have no London to Paignton as a result. Quite honestly, the half-hourly Paignton to Exeter is more than adequate.

If it can be made to work…
- Hourly London to Cornwall
- Hourly Newquay to Falmouth (fullness of time)
- Hourly Exeter to Penzance overlay stopper (probably using a 5/802)
- Hourly Cardiff to Exeter (this is probably 4/158 territory)
- Hourly Cross Country to Plymouth, with some extensions to Newquay when suitable given the potential glut of Voyagers coming online.
- Extend the Manchester to Bristol hourly (which should come back) to Paignton every two hours.
- Half-hourly Paignton slow, honestly don’t care where they come from.

Makes sense to me, at least.

The semi-fast London service terminate at Exeter St David's and the Paignton slow services could either come from Barnstaple, Okehampton or Taunton

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Would the semi-fast terminate at Exeter St David's or Plymouth instead? I'd say the Paignton slow services could either come from Barnstaple, Okehampton or Taunton (to serve Wellington and Cullompton), primarily to avoid having to reverse at St David's. Exmouth services could either terminate at St David's or continue to Barnstaple or Okehampton

Can’t say I thought about it that much…

 

[bitzer]

The services to Paignton which also serve Torquay are vitally important for attracting tourism into the area. Having to change at Exeter instead of a non-stop route would put many people off from going.

 

[JonathanH]

The services to Paignton which also serve Torquay are vitally important for attracting tourism into the area. Having to change at Exeter instead of a non-stop route would put many people off from going.

Is that any different to Falmouth or St Ives? Why do people need through trains to Paignton and Torbay but can manage with a change if they are going to places that need a change?

 

[30907]

Is that any different to Falmouth or St Ives? Why do people need through trains to Paignton and Torbay but can manage with a change if they are going to places that need a change?

The obvious difference is that Torbay is 6 times the size of Falmouth or Newquay, which are both twice the size of St Ives. It needs some through services all year both GW and XC - though not necessarily frequent, just to pick up the main holiday/short break/(?)conference markets. Local residents will I imagine still use Newton A as a railhead

 

[Topological]

Increasing Swansea to 2 trains per hour sounds nice, especially given it is during the peaks and there is a long turnaround of approximately 45 minutes on the current schedule. However, it also feels like the only thing keeping the London to Cardiff as an 80x is that there are insufficient electrified destinations to warrant GWR having more EMUs (387s presumably).

Likewise bringing the South West trains from Cardiff to Swansea would be nice, but then that risks interworking with the London and all London-Swansea becoming 5 car (which again would be enough for most trains west of Cardiff). That works if the diagrams fit for interworking. Perhaps not one to float in front of the DfT.

Having 3 trains per hour between Cardiff and London where 2 were 387s and 1 was the 5 car 80x from Swansea would work from a capacity perspective (though paths might be harder). 1 of the Cardiff trains could be an 80x using the fast Bristol path that isn't coming back. It may even be the case that a 5 car 80x and one 387 per hour is enough from Cardiff and the additional capacity afforded by having a longer 80x on Swansea trains is only needed between Bristol Parkway and London, in which case there are many more options.

Very easy to speculate on South Wales, but it always strikes me that the present Swansea operation is inefficient use of resource.

 

[JonathanH]

However, it also feels like the only thing keeping the London to Cardiff as an 80x is that there are insufficient electrified destinations to warrant GWR having more EMUs (387s presumably).

No, the Cardiff trains have to be 80x because they interwork with other routes, and the end of the day workings go to Swansea, where there is a depot.

Very easy to speculate on South Wales, but it always strikes me that the present Swansea operation is inefficient use of resource.

How? It is where the depot is. Would you rather that Swansea was just the front five coaches from Cardiff?

 

[Topological]

No, the Cardiff trains have to be 80x because they interwork with other routes, and the end of the day workings go to Swansea, where there is a depot.


How? It is where the depot is. Would you rather that Swansea was just the front five coaches from Cardiff?

I have a vested interest, as I suspect the OP had with so many suggested Swansea services.

However, there cannot be any claim that it is efficient to have 2 5-car 80x running between Cardiff and Swansea and then spending 50 minutes sitting in the platform at Swansea.

I am though very grateful that they did put a depot at Swansea as it gives many early morning options and likewise keeps a late night service running when other similar sized cities would not be receiving any service.

I am not sure about GWR diagramming, but once Oxford is wired there must be suitable options for a 387 based operation.

This is just a speculation thread though so a bit of licence to assume it could be done remains. If the DfT are happy funding all the spare capacity in South Wales then i will certainly not be complaining.

 

[JonathanH]

I am not sure about GWR diagramming, but once Oxford is wired there must be suitable options for a 387 based operation.

Half the Oxford trains run through to the Cotswolds. Half the Cardiff trains run through to Swansea.

GWR have 33 387s and essentially one depot in Reading for them. GWR have a 80x fleet that it needs to use.

What are we speculating about? Trying to run more 387s to Cardiff? I dont see why it makes sense to try and make sufficient diagrams self contained when the peak services have to run through to Swansea.

 

[Topological]

In the context of this thread it frees 80x to provide more services from Wales to the South West and provide strengthening between the South West and Bristol, both of which appear to be in demand now the HSTs are retiring. Might even allow some flexibility for easing overcrowding on CrossCountry if GWR were able to provide more of the service South West of Bristol and leave CrossCountry to use their resources from Bristol north.

I see mention of 158s for South Wales to South West, but they could definitely be put to better use.

Question is whether there is a desire to use existing resource, or whether there is genuinely going to be a big replacement of the Turbos/150s.

To stress again, I would prefer they just keep nice empty 80x on the Swansea run.

 

[cactustwirly]

Here's the revised plan:
2 tph to Bristol (1 fast, 1 semi-fast)
2 tph to Swansea (1 fast, 1 semi-fast)
2 tph to the Cotswolds (skip-stop between Oxford and Worcester)
2 tph to South West England (1 faster to Penzance, 1 semi-fast to Exeter/Plymouth/Paignton)
1 tph to Cheltenham Spa
2 tph Bristol - Oxford
1 tph Swansea - Exeter (extending every 2 hours to Penzance)

What do you mean by fast and semi fast?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

In the context of this thread it frees 80x to provide more services from Wales to the South West and provide strengthening between the South West and Bristol, both of which appear to be in demand now the HSTs are retiring. Might even allow some flexibility for easing overcrowding on CrossCountry if GWR were able to provide more of the service South West of Bristol and leave CrossCountry to use their resources from Bristol north.

I see mention of 158s for South Wales to South West, but they could definitely be put to better use.

Question is whether there is a desire to use existing resource, or whether there is genuinely going to be a big replacement of the Turbos/150s.

To stress again, I would prefer they just keep nice empty 80x on the Swansea run.

Why do services to the South West matter more than London?

The capacity of the 800s is needed between Swindon and Paddington a 387 doesn't cut it.
There aren't enough 387s anyway and it would be a logistical nightmare for very little gain.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In the context of this thread it frees 80x to provide more services from Wales to the South West and provide strengthening between the South West and Bristol, both of which appear to be in demand now the HSTs are retiring

No need to free up extra 80x as the units needed to replace the HSTs have already been replaced by post Covid reductions.

I see mention of 158s for South Wales to South West, but they could definitely be put to better use.

Is this speculation you have seen? As you will see on the GWR Metro West thread actually the opposite is happening with a 158 moving from the South Wales to South West route to Portsmouth - Cardiff in May 2023.

 

[Topological]

To be fair I would not call Portsmouth South West, though it is in railway terms. I was merely trying to bring together the fact that some are Cardiff-Taunton, some are Cardiff-Exeter and some are Cardiff-Penzance under one term. Sorry for the confusion on that one. For clarity perhaps I should refer to the fact they pass through Bedminster but the ones going to Portsmouth do not.

The mention of using 158s on the Cardiff routes passing through Bedminster was from @4-SUB 4732 earlier in this thread. My point was that 80x can run that route given it passes 80x depot(s) and that the 158 may be more use for other places (like Portsmouth) where the Turbo is not popular.

The option to take over more of the CrossCountry between Bristol and Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance would seem worth exploring when it is for the want of an EMU that can run at 100 between Cardiff/Swindon/Oxford/Newbury and London.