Could a 3rd rail shoe be fitted on an AC only unit?

[Sutton in Ant]

I was having a thought as the 379s are struggling to find a new home and the same could be said about the 350/2s which they go off lease from LNWR in the next year or 2.

What I would think would get more rail operators more interested would be to fit the 3rd rail shoe to the current ac only rolling stock of the 379s and the 350/2s.

I would think it would be a good idea.

 

[JonathanH]

What I would think would get more rail operators more interested would be to fit the 3rd rail shoe to the current ac only rolling stock of the 379s and the 350/2s.

The DfT holds the purse strings, not the operators. There is no money to lease additional rolling stock regardless of fitting 3rd rail collection facilities.

I would think it would be a good idea.

Technically, it may well be feasible but it will cost money.

 

[Bill57p9]

There are dual voltage electrostars (375/6 & 378) and Desiros (350/1) so I doubt it would be excessively technically challenging.
As @JonathanH states, the likelihood of financial appetite in the current climate of cost-cutting is low.

 

[WizCastro197]

There are dual voltage electrostars (375/6 & 378) and Desiros (350/1) so I doubt it would be excessively technically challenging.
As @JonathanH states, the likelihood of financial appetite in the current climate of cost-cutting is low.

The dual units were made in mind of always having dual power options. The 350s and 379s, less so. However, in the 379 future thread, before it was locked, there was talk about there being a gap within in the cab of the 379 which potentially could foster another power option. Nothing will happen, as like the 379 thread, I can imagine this one will go around in circles.

 

[D365]

However, in the 379 future thread, before it was locked, there was talk about there being a gap within in the cab of the 379 which potentially could foster another power option. Nothing will happen, as like the 379 thread, I can imagine this one will go around in circles.

Cab desk is the least of the problems.

 

[WizCastro197]

Cab desk is the least of the problems.

I don’t see it as a problem, it is aiding the unlikely conversion of anything. As noted about a million times in the 379 thread, money is the largest problem, as you are probably aware, and the Government won’t supply it.

The 379 cab picture below shows a gap left between the AC power mode option and the screen below.

 

[D365]

No - what I mean is that adding a button is one of the easier parts of a conversion.

 

[edwin_m]

The dual units were made in mind of always having dual power options. The 350s and 379s, less so. However, in the 379 future thread, before it was locked, there was talk about there being a gap within in the cab of the 379 which potentially could foster another power option. Nothing will happen, as like the 379 thread, I can imagine this one will go around in circles.

The 350 and the 450 were basically AC and DC versions of the same design, and the earlier Electrostars were specifically designed to be convertable, although some of necessary equipment wasn't actually fitted. Did the later Electrostars move away from this?

However the bigger problem with this idea is that with reduced commuting after Covid straight after the influx of new fleets in recent years, there is a surplus rather than a shortage of commuter EMUs of either voltage.

 

[zwk500]

The 350 and the 450 were basically AC and DC versions of the same design, and the earlier Electrostars were specifically designed to be convertable, although some of necessary equipment wasn't actually fitted. Did the later Electrostars move away from this?

It's a standard requirement, IIRC, that all DC units are theoretically designed to be convertible to AC, not sure if the inverse applies. However once the production run ends then the AC equipment they were designed to work with may not be available as easily or as cheaply, and you are left either cannibalising units or converting them to work with newer traction equipment.

It's part of the reason Third-rail only 377s are numbered in the 3xx range not 4xx.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a standard requirement, IIRC, that all DC units are theoretically designed to be convertible to AC, not sure if the inverse applies. However once the production run ends then the AC equipment they were designed to work with may not be available as easily or as cheaply, and you are left either cannibalising units or converting them to work with newer traction equipment.

It's part of the reason Third-rail only 377s are numbered in the 3xx range not 4xx.

If I recall correctly neither 444s nor 458s have a pantograph well, so couldn't easily be converted to AC. I don't recall any mention of provision for third rail capability on Class 380 or 385.

 

[WizCastro197]

If I recall correctly neither 444s nor 458s have a pantograph well, so couldn't easily be converted to AC. I don't recall any mention of provision for third rail capability on Class 380 or 385.

The 444's do have a pantograph recess, one per unit. However, you are correct in that the 458s don't have a pantograph recess, but the pre-conversions ones did, although that doesn't really matter.

You can see the pantograph well in this picture of a 444 at Basingstoke to the right of the image.

 

[43096]

However, you are correct in that the 458s don't have a pantograph recess, but the pre-conversions ones did, although that doesn't really matter.

That’s not correct. 458501-530 retain the pantograph wells that they have had from new.

 

[JonathanH]

However, you are correct in that the 458s don't have a pantograph recess, but the pre-conversions ones did, although that doesn't really matter.

No, only the six converted from 460s are without a pantograph recess, 458501 to 458530 retain a pantograph recess.

 

[WizCastro197]

No, only the six converted from 460s are without a pantograph recess, 458501 to 458530 retain a pantograph recess.

Ah, right, I wasn’t completely sure, thanks.

 

[CBlue]

I was having a thought as the 379s are struggling to find a new home and the same could be said about the 350/2s which they go off lease from LNWR in the next year or 2.

What I would think would get more rail operators more interested would be to fit the 3rd rail shoe to the current ac only rolling stock of the 379s and the 350/2s.

I would think it would be a good idea.

You posted exactly this in the now closed 378 thread, too. Sorry but repeating yourself isn't going to make it more likely - no-one is interested in taking the fleet on and it appears won't be for the foreseeable future if their storage is anything to go by.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

You posted exactly this in the now closed 378 thread, too. Sorry but repeating yourself isn't going to make it more likely - no-one is interested in taking the fleet on and it appears won't be for the foreseeable future if their storage is anything to go by.

Yes. Sometimes I do forget. Yes. My bad

 

[WizCastro197]

You posted exactly this in the now closed 378 thread, too. Sorry but repeating yourself isn't going to make it more likely - no-one is interested in taking the fleet on and it appears won't be for the foreseeable future if their storage is anything to go by.

This is a speculative discussion, not what it actually going to happen imminently. The 379 thread was closed a while ago, therefore OP must’ve forgotten and it is interesting to hear the changes and potential setbacks if funding was provided. It is better to have this in separate thread, as it is covering a lot more than just 379s

 

[zwk500]

This is a speculative discussion, not what it actually going to happen imminently. The 379 thread was closed a while ago, therefore OP must’ve forgotten and it is interesting to hear the changes and potential setbacks if funding was provided. It is better to have this in separate thread, as it is covering a lot more than just 379s

But asking the same question without any change in the circumstances is unlikely to deliver a different answer. And the cirucmstances haven't changed for some time.

It's technically possible to do so, but the costs outweigh the benefits at a time when surplus EMUs are being scrapped or converted for DMU/Battery/Bi-mode operation.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

But asking the same question without any change in the circumstances is unlikely to deliver a different answer. And the cirucmstances haven't changed for some time.

It's technically possible to do so, but the costs outweigh the benefits at a time when surplus EMUs are being scrapped or converted for DMU/Battery/Bi-mode operation.

Yes. There are times when I do forget that I have already put it on another forum. It is part of who I am.

 

[zwk500]

Yes. There are times when I do forget that I have already put it on another forum. It is part of who I am.

It's quite alright. Goodness knows I've asked the same question only 10 minutes later sometimes! In future, you can try using the forum's search function to see if anything similar has already come up.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

It's quite alright. Goodness knows I've asked the same question only 10 minutes later sometimes! In future, you can try using the forum's search function to see if anything similar has already come up.

Fair enough