Is a North London Line though service good or bad?

[miklcct]

Currently, West London Line is the only London orbital which has a through service between different sides of London, allowing travelling from South of London to North of London on a not via London ticket on a through train, although the service is just a mere token once per hour, with most service on the line being local metro services.

There is now no through service on North London Line, and worse, there is no obvious connection from the west to the east using National Rail only without paying a huge premium to go through London, and even with a tube connection, it's very circuitous to avoid Central London from the west due to a missing connection between the tube lines from Ealing Broadway and the Richmond branch of North London Line.

So,

1. Is it possible to provide a through passenger service between Ealing Broadway and Stratford?
2. If it is possible, will it affect the reliability of the local metro service too much?
3. If it is not possible, will Old Oak Common provide a convenient connection to avoid Central London to travel between the west and the east?

 

[Nippy]

1 There are no wires on the Poplar Lines between Acton Mainline and Acton Wells Junction so it would have to be a DMU.
2 There is no capacity to turn trains at Ealing Broadway without seriously affecting Elizabeth Line and freight traffic.
3 I don’t know much about the proposals at OOC so can’t answer that one

 

[cle]

Is this all to save 2-3 quid? How much is, say Watford to Croydon - via CJ and via Euston/Vic? Genuinely unsure.

It would be great if Crossrail could do this function, with non-London pricing and tickets reject if folks try to exit prematurely. But maybe it's such an edge case, it doesn't matter.

And yes, OOC - in theory and if funded - would have both WLL and NLL stations (WLO possibly too - to hit the MML and DC lines again, nothing new from Willesden Jn and West Hampstead on WLL/NLL) - and it really should, to maximise its use as a strategic hub for all directions. Especially drawing in HS2/GWML travellers from South London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Non-London pricing is really out of date. There's no longer a need to price people into avoiding central London, because there's now more capacity and a lot less demand. Indeed overcrowding is more likely on the short trains of the Overground than the long ones of the Lizzie. Hub and spoke is an efficient way to run the railway.

 

[miklcct]

Is this all to save 2-3 quid? How much is, say Watford to Croydon - via CJ and via Euston/Vic? Genuinely unsure.

My routine is to cross London if the destination is on the direct opposite side of London, but to avoid London if the destination is on the same side of London. An easy rule of thumb is to measure the angle at Central London connecting the origin and destination on a map, if it is less than 1 radian then go orbital, otherwise go into London.

Looking on a map, going into Euston adds a substantial distance for a Watford - Croydon journey so I will avoid London and use the West London Line.

The off-peak fare between Watford Junction and East Croydon is £8.10 via Euston, £6.20 via West Hampstead Thameslink, and £3.60 avoiding Central London so it's a huge saving.

 

[JonathanH]

Is this all to save 2-3 quid? How much is, say Watford to Croydon - via CJ and via Euston/Vic? Genuinely unsure.

On Oyster / Contactless the fares for Watford Junction to East Croydon are:

£5.60 peak / £3.60 off-peak with no intermediate touch

£9.50 peak / £6.20 off-peak with touch at West Hampstead / West Hampstead Thameslink

£11.20 peak / £8.10 off-peak with touch at Balham, Vauxhall, Elephant & Castle, Blackfriars, London Bridge, Victoria, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Waterloo East, Battersea Power Station / Battersea Park or Battersea Power Station / Queenstown Road.

So avoiding Zone 1 is very useful from a fares perspective (although going Watford Junction - Willesden Junction - Paddington - Farringdon - East Croydon is also possible at the cheapest rate)

Is it possible to provide a through passenger service between Ealing Broadway and Stratford?

There is already one (and another with a simple change at a central London station).

The way to avoid Zone 1 on that journey is currently to change at Shepherds Bush (or Turnham Green and Gunnersbury).

Changing at Shepherds Bush is probably a ten minute time penalty rather than going direct from Ealing Broadway to Willesden Junction (with good connections).

If it is not possible, will Old Oak Common provide a convenient connection to avoid Central London to travel between the west and the east?

OOC is ultimately going to be the answer but I though that plans for stations on either the Richmond or Clapham Junction routes hadn't been included in the plans so far because of the difficulty in finding an appropriate place for a station to be constructed and the unfunded cost.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hrough-services-feasible.232276/#post-5680384
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swml-strategic-study.220415/page-2#post-5254392
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/central-line-ooc.214923/#post-5030736

The business case assessment is available at this link.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/business_case_for_a_new_overgoun#incoming-1427134

Could TfL please provide a copy of the business case on the proposed station at Hythe Road, in order that residents in the area can assess the probability of this station being built, as an addition to local public transport infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it possible to provide a through passenger service between Ealing Broadway and Stratford?

There is already one (and another with a simple change at a central London station).

There’s two!

Spending money to provide a third, that would take longer, to enable lower revenue? Let me think about that.

 

[JonathanH]

There’s two!

One doesn't (yet) have through running from Ealing Broadway to Stratford without a 3 or 4 minute change.

 

[Bald Rick]

One doesn't (yet) have through running from Ealing Broadway to Stratford without a 3 or 4 minute change.

I‘m full of mistakes tonight. Apologies.

4 months to go…

 

[leytongabriel]

What about terminating possible NLL services in the seemingly underused District Railway part of the station.
Getting to Ealing from North London isn't easy.

 

[JonathanH]

What about terminating possible NLL services in the seemingly underused District Railway part of the station.
Getting to Ealing from North London isn't easy.

How are they going to get to the District Line part of the station (as we have discussed before https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ervices-feasible.232276/page-2#post-5698452)?

You change at Shepherds Bush for Ealing Broadway.

Alternatively change at Liverpool Street, Moorgate, Farringdon, Tottenham Court Road, Bond Street or Paddington. They've just opened a whole new railway making travel to Ealing easier with connections to most of north London.

 

[zwk500]

Is it possible to provide a through passenger service between Ealing Broadway and Stratford?

Technically yes. From a practical perspective no.

If it is possible, will it affect the reliability of the local metro service too much?

Yes. And it'll also have knock on effects to freight.

If it is not possible, will Old Oak Common provide a convenient connection to avoid Central London to travel between the west and the east?

Probably not, although you might find a few more overground stations in the area that do.

My routine is to cross London if the destination is on the direct opposite side of London, but to avoid London if the destination is on the same side of London. An easy rule of thumb is to measure the angle at Central London connecting the origin and destination on a map, if it is less than 1 radian then go orbital, otherwise go into London.

If you insist on making your life much harder by such strict and abstract cartographical restrictions (you have a similar reluctance to double-back, I seem to remember) then it is unreasonable to expect public transport to adapt to you, and instead should accept the inconvenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While talk of radians and being absolute is a bit techie, he does have a point - going into the city and back out probably does become useless (in favour of car, taxi or even bicycle) if it is less than a third of the way round the city, or perhaps a quarter on a particularly fast route like the WCML. (There are approximately 3 radians in a circle).

For instance if going from Oxford to Southend, going via London is not a great penalty. But if going from Oxford to High Wycombe, it would be rather silly, you could almost walk in that time and the direct train is definitely quicker.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The fact Crossrail now exists means Ealing to Stratford is well-served, as are Slough and Reading to Stratford (albeit it’s not a great idea to be sat on a 345 for all that time). When Old Oak interchange opens and long-distance trains start stopping there, as well as, you hope, the Chiltern service to Old Oak Common, then you’ll be fine.

Attempting to build a service such as an Ealing - Willesden - Camden - Stratford is pointless at this time.

 

[JonathanH]

Attempting to build a service such as an Ealing - Willesden - Camden - Stratford is pointless at this time.

For end to end journeys it is indeed pointless.

For making fares cheaper on intermediate journeys it is hard to see why the money would be spent.

If you want to get from Ealing to Willesden Junction, you get a bus or go via Shepherds Bush. Having a direct link to the North London Line isn't worth the upheaval to the current operation of the railway.

Building the Overground Station at Shepherds Bush in 2008 was the thing that opened up the connections in the area.