Sometimes I despair of the current railway. I purchased a ticket from Leamington to a West Midland station at 7.30 a few days ago. As this is an anytime any permitted route ticket it seems ridiculous that you have to go through the process of selecting outward and return times. Even worse is the fact that it informed me that my planned journey via Coventry was not possible as reservations were unavailable. This refers to the 10 minute leg of the journey from Coventry to Birmingham international with Avanti, when clearly there is no way reservations could be enforced, Obviously I simply selected a train I had no intention of using, but someone unfamiliar with the railway would have assumed they had to wait half an hour for the first available train. And just in case anyone might think this helps spread peak loadings the next train is the only Cross Country peak hour train to New Street and as a single voyager is always very overcrowded- the reason I planned to go earlier in the first place. Adrian Shooter mentions in his book that he thought it was important to design ticket machines that were quick and easy to use- what would he have made of this?
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TVMs and compulsory reservations
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I'd bet that the large numbers of people who commute from Coventry to Birmingham New Street didn't take any notice of the lack of reservations either. I would, in the past, take the CrossCountry train that arrives in BHM at about 07.50. It was always full from Leamington and crammed from Coventry.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Hers a tip for Flowbird machines , when you get to the screen with times and fares on just select the fare it bypasses the mandatory reservation
WTF is a Flowbird? If I need to learn about brands of ticket machine I'll just jump in the car instead.
Flowbird is a manufacturer of ticket machines, formerly known as Parkeon. LNER use Flowbird machines, not sure about other operators though.
Chiltern and Northern also use Flowbird TVMs.
Baxenden Bank
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Yes, it is an annoying, time-consuming, unnecessary feature.
If I roll up at xx01 to catch the xx10 train from Uttoxeter, buying a single to the next station, I do not need to book a seat, to be told there are no reservations, nor to then be advised that as the train is quite soon I might miss it! Then again the whole selecting and buying process on these new EMR machines is not all all easy.
If I roll up at xx01 to catch the xx10 train from Uttoxeter, buying a single to the next station, I do not need to book a seat, to be told there are no reservations, nor to then be advised that as the train is quite soon I might miss it! Then again the whole selecting and buying process on these new EMR machines is not all all easy.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
A friend tried to save waiting in a ticket office queue (at St Pancras I think it was) by using a ticket machine; but the machine kept asking for the time she wanted to travel. Since she wanted a non-train-specific ticket, valid on the route concerned all day (subject to peak restrictions perhaps), she went to the ticket office anyway, assuming the machine only sold Advance, train specific tickets. Why on earth does a ticket machine ask what time you're travelling if you're buying a ticket for which that's irrelevant? It's a good way of deterring people from using the machines - a significant proportion of tickets must be ones which aren't intended as time-specific.
Machines I use just ask if you want peak or off-peak, if it's relevant for the journey concerned.
Is it the case with all machines which ask time of travel, as well as date, that you can ignore that if you want and the machine will still work?
There were complaints that TVMs didn't sell time-restricted tickets for future travel at times they weren't valid (amongst other things.)
The industry/TVM supplier response to this was to introduce a journey planner interface, taking three times longer to buy a ticket.
Depending on the supplier, you may also still be able to use the "traditional" immediate travel purchase flow.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If we are to persist with this compulsory reservation nonsense, and indeed due to the evacuation plans and OOC station HS2 is likely to be fully compulsory reservation, then I think planners need to change their functionality a bit. At present they search journey possibilities then check the fares, they probably need to move to search journey possibilities, then check fares, then if one of them includes a full CR train then refine that one to show the next connections that have capacity on sale.
Plus they need to know the difference between "not on sale yet" and "sold out".
At the moment this Avanti nonsense can cause you to see no options all day, when there are other connections, they just don't come up as normally they aren't fastest.
Plus they need to know the difference between "not on sale yet" and "sold out".
At the moment this Avanti nonsense can cause you to see no options all day, when there are other connections, they just don't come up as normally they aren't fastest.
Baxenden Bank
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Taking London to Birmingham as an example. If, due to Avanti not having released tickets for sale yet, the TVM were to sell you an LMR only ticket on an LMR slower service would you then be miffed if Avanti subsequently released cheaper Avanti only tickets, or faster journey opportunities became available but requiring an any operator ticket?
Is it worth the problems that are created by: Advance tickets; operator specific tickets; Compulsory Reservations which are no such thing in practice (except say gatelines at Euston pre-Christmas but not elsewhere along the route); denying to sell 'open' tickets when there will be a service of some kind but it has not yet been fully decided what?
There are plenty of faults with TVM's but some of it is the underlying processes of trying to pigeonhole wide and varied travel choices into something a computer programme can deal with and present to the public, all at the push of a few buttons for even the dimmest of purchasers. In the good old days you bought your ticket from a person who could ask the relevent questions or from a simple machine with lots of buttons and you made the decision yourself whether your ticket was valid or not (peak or off-peak), now the technology has to do our thinking for us!
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Thats nothing to do with a TVM though that would happen on any channel.
Baxenden Bank
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A ticket office, and therefore possibly all electronic channels, ought to be able to simply sell a non reserved open ticket regardless of the not-yet-published timetable, the unavailability of reservations or even out-of-turn running on the day itself. Alongside which would come the caveat 'Avanti haven't confirmed their timetable yet' or 'reservations aren't available yet' or 'are you aware trains are disrupted today'. A bit like pulling an Edmonson ticket from the rack, regardless. The tickets are always there even if the train might not be.
Having said that you then get the 'I was sold a ticket and the train I expected to run didn't. NOTE expected not advertised!
Ticket purchase, detailed journey planning and specific seat reservation are linked but different processes. I can buy a loaf of bread (or an expensive motor car) without telling the baker (or car dealership) when I am going to use it and what for. Just let me buy it!
Haywain
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Once you have bought those items you don't expect any further input from the supplier to complete the transaction though, that's a big difference. When you buy a train ticket you expect the railway to provide the service you've paid for.
Well, unless it's Avanti of course. In which case I expect very little....
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not suggesting not showing these at all (as per SNCF), but saying basically "this is what I can sell you now, there's also that but it's not confirmed or open for booking yet".
Without quoting half of the above posts the customer / passenger should not be expected to know workarounds for TVM's.
While the system must allow for buying ahead the default needs to be a 'Quick Fare' starting page for travel the same day. Once the destination is entered if the next train requires an Anytime ticket the first off-peak train and where available that day the first super off-peak will be displayed. The off-peak & super off-peak time restrictions will be clearly stated and for purchase must be accepted. For a return again the time restrictions shown as the customer / passenger may require an Anytime ticket. Where two routes with two different fares this should be on the screen as options to select from clearly showing crucially for each the next departure time and the arrival time.
Directly OT as the failure to reform fares but the customer / passenger should not be expected to know workarounds for a cheaper fare either e.g. split tickets or a ticket with the destination beyond where they are travelling to. All single tickets would remove buying a more expensive ticket for both legs e.g. Anytime return when outward is off-peak but return is peak. Same day advances should should either be completely removed or only offered at least say at least 6 hours ahead.
While the system must allow for buying ahead the default needs to be a 'Quick Fare' starting page for travel the same day. Once the destination is entered if the next train requires an Anytime ticket the first off-peak train and where available that day the first super off-peak will be displayed. The off-peak & super off-peak time restrictions will be clearly stated and for purchase must be accepted. For a return again the time restrictions shown as the customer / passenger may require an Anytime ticket. Where two routes with two different fares this should be on the screen as options to select from clearly showing crucially for each the next departure time and the arrival time.
Directly OT as the failure to reform fares but the customer / passenger should not be expected to know workarounds for a cheaper fare either e.g. split tickets or a ticket with the destination beyond where they are travelling to. All single tickets would remove buying a more expensive ticket for both legs e.g. Anytime return when outward is off-peak but return is peak. Same day advances should should either be completely removed or only offered at least say at least 6 hours ahead.
Baxenden Bank
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You don't. We know that but the general public often seems to think that once they have selected the 0945 out and 1645 return that those are the trains they have to use. In some cases it is the case because they have been sold an Advance, in many cases it isn't because they have been sold a flexible ticket. In other cases of course they know it's an Advance but try it on on a different train.
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