New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[winks]

The document(s) don’t actually say what the competent rate for a guard is - the training salary is £24,000 but nobody knows what the actual salary is and this will no doubt create some animosity between current staff and new entrants. The interesting thing is guards being recruited right now - on the old terms and conditions (in respect of SWR) I guess the answer is to get into the industry now to get the 30 days A/L and £40K salary !

 

[Llandudno]

While I think it's silly to have to pay people twice to do their job, this is a small incentive (couple of pints a day's worth) at small cost, so it is probably pragmatically a good idea.

From my experience I reckon ticket checks on board Northern trains have increased considerably, so I would hazard a guess that the reduction in ticketless travel will have more than covered the extra 2p’s!

 

[dk1]

And how it should be. Believe it or not, the major beneficiaries of investment in public transport are those who don't use it, as they and their business can operate more efficiently.

Very true. Trouble with many politicians is that they know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

 

[PupCuff]

A lot of the catering grades in GWR are also front set leads (as known in GWR) and are required to be in the opposite set to the guard on 10 car IET's so they do a function that is relevant to the operation of the train. (I appreciate thats something they may try to get rid of, but they do more than merely serve tea)

Yup - fairly standard arrangement across most TOCs who employ catering staff which works well.

Removing that would of course reduce the staff presence which is hardly good customer service, but if you accept the proposal which bases the review of provision of catering staff based on customers perceived need of the catering service without consideration of the wider context then there's a likelihood that's what you'll get.

 

[12LDA28C]

the proposed changes will seem like a god send compared to what could happen.

Easy to say that when the proposed changes don't affect you in any way. Are you able to see the point of view of the thousands of staff that this will have a huge negative effect on? Apparently not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2023 ==

But before wasn't working was it? That's why the industry is where it is.

It was working perfectly well until the Government told people not to travel, and to work from home. That is why the industry is where it is.

 

[LowLevel]

The document(s) don’t actually say what the competent rate for a guard is - the training salary is £24,000 but nobody knows what the actual salary is and this will no doubt create some animosity between current staff and new entrants. The interesting thing is guards being recruited right now - on the old terms and conditions (in respect of SWR) I guess the answer is to get into the industry now to get the 30 days A/L and £40K salary !

I'll give you one as a worked example.

£31102.29 per annum for EMR Senior Conductors, 35 hour week with Sundays already inclusive for Senior Conductors.

Current terms are training wage of £23,334 until being declared competent to take charge, and then up to full salary. That can take up to around 3-5/6 months depending on depot and route knowledge. To assume maximum length training of 6 months and disregarding possible future pay rises, assume that in the first 4 years of their career, current salary for a new starter would be £120,525.02.

To achieve this took significant negotiations and concessions of terms to the TOC and DfT, but they allowed including the retention of a fixed rest day pattern.

With the proposed uplift of £1750 and 4%, the full salary will become £34,166.38 in the May 2023 pay anniversary.

Year 1 70% = £24,000 minimum
Year 2 80% = £27,333.10
Year 3 90% = £30,749.74
Year 4 100% = £34, 166.38

£116,249.22 total.

However if you assume they pass out 2 months earlier, which is quite possible for guards at Boston, Lincoln, Derby and Norwich who have less route learning to do than at Nottingham, you could add around an extra £1,200 to their earnings which would open the gap.

Less than I thought it would be, but still a gap considering the further loss of terms and conditions.

After we've agreed these changes less than 12 months ago I think this will never be acceptable locally and has caused a lot of anger.

National principles that do not recognise any efficiency work already done are no use to resolving the dispute.

 

[Master29]

But before wasn't working was it? That's why the industry is where it is.

You miss out the rest of your sentence which should read. "because successive UK governments have mismanaged the railways in the UK since the start of the BR era". That's why "we are where we are". Constantly touting buzzwords and spin changes nothing.

 

[12LDA28C]

Given the damage these continual strikes are doing to the UK's reputation, it's about time the union membership and its leaders accepted the offer.

Have you examined the details of the 'offer'? Would you accept it?

 

[Bantamzen]

Easy to say that when the proposed changes don't affect you in any way. Are you able to see the point of view of the thousands of staff that this will have a huge negative effect on? Apparently not.

I hate to disappoint you but large swathes of the public sector (including me) have had to swallow changes to T&C's, pay and even job security. And then there's the private sector....

t was working perfectly well until the Government told people not to travel, and to work from home. That is why the industry is where it is.

No it wasn't. It was rattling itself apart. Once again I cite the franchises collapsing.

You miss out the rest of your sentence which should read. "because successive UK governments have mismanaged the railways in the UK since the start of the BR era". That's why "we are where we are". Constantly touting buzzwords and spin changes nothing.

Yes, successive governments have mismanaged all sorts of things. However until fairly recently the railways worked mainly as a government contracted service, and yet still couldn't get things right. Its always so very easy to point the finger and blame the other guy, but clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with how the railway industry works. People of all grades within it can accept or deny this, but it is only by accepting it will positive change be possible. Its not the 1980s anymore.

 

[Annetts key]

Given the damage these continual strikes are doing to the UK's reputation, it's about time the union membership and its leaders accepted the offer.

Or do staff want to be locked in a wage-price spiral where inflation will only worsen, and eventually the government of the day embarks upon wholesale closures of many rail lines to passenger traffic and replacement with road coaches/buses to save money?

The latter occurred in my state of Victoria, Australia in the late 1970s to save money and in NSW somewhat later. It may be harder to implement in the UK given your much greater population (in England), but could still occur.

I think you are deliberately stirring the pot because you talk absolute twaddle. Industrial action is about employees withdrawing their labour due to serious concerns, the reputation of the U.K. is irrelevant here. Oh, and it’s the actions or inactions of the government in London that has the most significant effect on the reputation of the U.K.

Tell me, how much percentage rise has the government already announced, that regulated fares (for railway tickets) will go up by this year? And how much was in in previous normal years?
Tell you what, why don’t you read this that shows how much fares were rising before anyone had even heard of COVID19:

Rail fares have risen twice as fast as wages in past 10 years, finds TUC

Issue date 14 Aug 2019
Rail fares have increased at twice the speed of wages since 2009, according to new analysis released today (Wednesday) by the TUC.
The figures show that rail fares have risen by 46% over the past 10 years, while nominal weekly earnings have only grown by 23%.
The TUC’s findings come as the government is set to announce another year of hefty increases for season ticket holders.
TUC analysis published in January showed that UK commuters spend up to five times more of their salary on rail fares than other European passengers.
Despite months of cancellations and delays, private train companies paid out £200 million in dividends to their shareholders in 2017/18; an increase of 6.5% over the last five years.
Last year, the taxpayer handed £3.8bn to these companies, an increase of 8%.
TUC General Secretary Frances O’Grady said:
“The last thing UK commuters need is another hefty fare increase. We’re already paying the highest ticket prices in Europe to travel on overcrowded and understaffed trains.
“It’s time to take the railways back into public hands. Every single penny from every single fare should be invested into our railways. This would free up money for much-needed upgrades and lower ticket prices.
“The number one priority should be running a world-class railway service, not subsidising private train companies.”

Source is the TUC, click here

The current Conservative government is peddling almost as much disinformation as the Russian government. If they really believed that increasing the costs of railway fares affected inflation, why would they have allowed the cost of regulated fares to go up by RPI or nearly RPI for all those years? If the railways produce a pay offer at (or below) the rise in ticket prices, and if the government do not increase direct funding at more than RPI, then how can railway employees getting a wage rise equal (or less than) RPI cause a “wage-price spiral where inflation will only worsen”?

The current inflation is being driven by a number of things, by far the biggest of which, is Russia going to war with Ukraine.

I don't know enough about how these things work to make an informed comment.

Really? You say this after how many posts?

However what I do know is that the railways are not making the money they once did, that they are at least partly publicly funded, and that there is huge economic pressure on the Treasury right now.

Overall, the U.K. mainland railways have never ever made any significant profits, EVER. Not even in the railway boom did they make any significant profits. It turns out carrying salty bags of water around that complain when asked to hand over money is not actually a very good business.

We have ended up with the railway system we have because ‘lines of communication’ (as the military call it) are essential to a functioning economy and society. The railways are part of our transport infrastructure.

There is huge economic pressure on the Treasury due to a number of reasons, which includes economic mismanagement (both short term = Truss and long term = not enough tax income to fund public services and repay debt), the costs of the COVID19 measures, the lack of investment in this country, the costs of brexit and the increased costs due to Russia going to war with Ukraine. The ordinary working person in this country were not responsible for any of this.

So any deals for any publicly funded sector is going to require more funding at a time when the bean counters are trying bring costs down. I have said right from the beginning that you should choose your fights well. Its entirely possible that the DfT's thinking is that in order to fund increased pay demands, T&Cs will have to change. In fact I guarantee it because this has happened right across the public sector.

The bean counters really need to tackle the very large debt, servicing this debt is the biggest cost. But unfortunately the Conservative government would rather attack the ordinary worker. That’s what this is really about. They don’t want employees to have good T&C or a reasonable rate of pay, because they don’t care about people who (they think) don’t vote for them.

I have also always said that if the industry wants out of public funding, and therefore public interference then it needs to woo back the private sector.

The private companies only got involved when they saw a mechanism where they could make a profit. Hence why the government under John Major made sure that the mechanism was funded by the government to ensure that the privatisation was successful. As soon as the source of the money (that is, the government funding reduced) for making a profit dried up the private companies terminated their contracts.

Why? Because I'm a user of this shoddy industry. Well that's when it can be bothered to operate. So I have an opinion.

So tell me, as a customer, do you want a frequent train service?
Do you want trains to be clean? Do you want them to be safe? Do you want them to be reliable? Do you want the trains, stations and infrastructure to be kept in good condition? Do you want good customer service and to be looked after?

Or do you want the chaos like what happened when Railtrack had to impose network wide speed restrictions due to not maintaining the infrastructure properly?

Or do you want derailments and crashes, with no staff around to help you?

Ideology will certainly be part of it. But take a long, hard look at the industry. Is it delivering? Is it providing value to the punters?

Value is relative. It’s possible to close all the railways in this country. Then the government would no longer need to pour money into the railway pit. But would that be good value to the country?

I've never argued that wages were the cause, so I'm not sure what point you are making. All I am saying is that wages add to the inflationary pressure. Its an unavoidable one of course, but it does means that there will always be limits as to how much they can rise.

So if any wage rise adds to inflation, why are any wage rises allowed? Surely the government should pass a law banning anyone from having a wage rise?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2023 ==

Very true. Trouble with many politicians is that they know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

I concur.

 

[43096]

Yup - fairly standard arrangement across most TOCs who employ catering staff which works well.

Removing that would of course reduce the staff presence which is hardly good customer service, but if you accept the proposal which bases the review of provision of catering staff based on customers perceived need of the catering service without consideration of the wider context then there's a likelihood that's what you'll get.

It is even worse customer service to lock out half the train purely because there’s not a suitably qualified tea dispenser.

 

[66701GBRF]

I hate to disappoint you but large swathes of the public sector (including me) have had to swallow changes to T&C's, pay and even job security. And then there's the private sector....

Presumably you had the same rights and options as other public sector workers...ie industrial action? Why does it follow just because you apparently "had to swallow changes" everyone else should? If you were traincrew or station staff, knowing you had some recourse, would YOU accept those new conditions?

 

[43066]

What does it count for? (Hurg!) Absolutely nothing! Its just the opinion of one of the plebs that fork out our hard earned to use the railways. But if enough people think like me, maybe fewer will use them in future. And fewer passengers = fewer staff needed. I know, I know, the plebs will return you say. Well I say let's wait and see.

Yes you say the same things in every thread. Clearly those who work on the railway are prepared to take the risk? Who exactly are you hoping to convince?

Nope.

Nope.

So what is your point?

It hasn't been providing a value service for years, long before this dispute. And its evidenced by the various franchise collapses.

And you think this attack on staff Ts and Cs and making their lives worse will make your tickets cheaper? I’m at a loss as to what your point actually is in this thread.

Well it looks like you're going to keep losing money then.

Who is losing money?

I’m not going to respond anymore because it’s a pointless argument and taking away from the main discussion on the thread.

 

[Annetts key]

It was working perfectly well until the Government told people not to travel, and to work from home. That is why the industry is where it is.

Except that most railway staff (those that actually run it in the real world) were told that it was an essential service therefore they had to come in to work to keep it going no matter what.

 

[mandub]

Zero hours contract on a good hourly rate.

No thanks.
I'll take no pay rise at all and wait for a better offer/a change of govt.

 

[baz962]

Yes you say the same things in every thread. Clearly those who work on the railway are prepared to take the risk? Who exactly are you hoping to convince?





So what is your point?



And you think this attack on staff Ts and Cs and making their lives worse will make your tickets cheaper? I’m at a loss as to what your point actually is in this thread.



Who is losing money?

I’m not going to respond anymore because it’s a pointless argument and taking away from the main discussion on the thread.

I think on your very last point they meant losing money on strike days.

 

[Bantamzen]

Who is losing money?

Do I really have to explain it? <Sigh>

You are. If you strike, you don't get paid. Now I know what your counter argument will be, you'll just work overtime to make it back. Except you are not, unless of course your TOC runs all those services cancelled on strike days on non-strike days in addition to planned ones.

I seriously hope you get my point.

’m not going to respond anymore because it’s a pointless argument and taking away from the main discussion on the thread.

Ha ha, good one

Oh you were serious?

Look, I am not anti-union, I am a union member. And I am not anti-rail, I am a regular user of the railways. But this strike is doing exactly what the government, actually no the Tories probably hoped for, undermining the value of the railways. You said earlier that this was an ideological matter, and on that I agree. There are serious financial constraints for sure, and as a result pay rises in any publicly funded sectors will seriously hampered and caveated. That's where we are with this.

But the longer this dispute goes on, the easier it will be for the Tories to push through even more cutbacks, anti-union legislation, and convince Joe Public that those workers in dispute are the real reason for all the country's ills. This dispute, along with all the others are doing more harm than good.

 

[jon0844]

I hate to disappoint you but large swathes of the public sector (including me) have had to swallow changes to T&C's, pay and even job security. And then there's the private sector....

So what are you going to do about it? Sounds like you're happy to just take it. That's fine (and what this Government wants you to do), but maybe don't moan when other people are prepared to fight (even if losing money) to protect their T&Cs.

 

[LowLevel]

Do I really have to explain it? <Sigh>

You are. If you strike, you don't get paid. Now I know what your counter argument will be, you'll just work overtime to make it back. Except you are not, unless of course your TOC runs all those services cancelled on strike days on non-strike days in addition to planned ones.

I seriously hope you get my point.


Ha ha, good one

Oh you were serious?

Look, I am not anti-union, I am a union member. And I am not anti-rail, I am a regular user of the railways. But this strike is doing exactly what the government, actually no the Tories probably hoped for, undermining the value of the railways. You said earlier that this was an ideological matter, and on that I agree. There are serious financial constraints for sure, and as a result pay rises in any publicly funded sectors will seriously hampered and caveated. That's where we are with this.

But the longer this dispute goes on, the easier it will be for the Tories to push through even more cutbacks, anti-union legislation, and convince Joe Public that those workers in dispute are the real reason for all the country's ills. This dispute, along with all the others are doing more harm than good.

So the result is that we should accept losing everything we have and just say "oh well, never mind, it was nice now it lasted and now we've lost because the Government wants to knock a lump out of us while it has the chance" and move on, whilst accepting a pay rise that will still leave people worse off?

 

[Bantamzen]

So what are you going to do about it? Sounds like you're happy to just take it. That's fine (and what this Government wants you to do), but maybe don't moan when other people are prepared to fight (even if losing money) to protect their T&Cs.

I do love it when people dive in an make daft assumptions. No I am not happy about it. And what am I going to do about it? About rampant inflation, soaring fuel prices, a rapidly growing budget deficit? I don't know, what are you going to do about it?

So the result is that we should accept losing everything we have and just say "oh well, never mind, it was nice now it lasted and now we've lost because the Government wants to knock a lump out of us while it has the chance" and move on, whilst accepting a pay rise that will still leave people worse off?

How about, oh I don't know, work towards making the industry more efficient and remove the threat of cuts....??

 

[Confused52]

..

Tell me, how much percentage rise has the government already announced, that regulated fares (for railway tickets) will go up by this year? And how much was in in previous normal years?
Tell you what, why don’t you read this that shows how much fares were rising before anyone had even heard of COVID19:


The current Conservative government is peddling almost as much disinformation as the Russian government. If they really believed that increasing the costs of railway fares affected inflation, why would they have allowed the cost of regulated fares to go up by RPI or nearly RPI for all those years? If the railways produce a pay offer at (or below) the rise in ticket prices, and if the government do not increase direct funding at more than RPI, then how can railway employees getting a wage rise equal (or less than) RPI cause a “wage-price spiral where inflation will only worsen”?

The current inflation is being driven by a number of things, by far the biggest of which, is Russia going to war with Ukraine.

The announced increase for next year was announced at 5.9%, but delayed by 3 months which reduces its effect even further. However the majority of the costs are, as you are well aware, currently borne out general taxation. When I heard about this I took it as a massive signal that the maximum pay increase the rail industry could expect was low. That was because the control totals set for the DFT were already fixed and there is no way of retrospectively taxing the public to make up the back-pay that would be needed for a higher rise. Why have prices risen by 1% more than RPI before covid you ask : well the reason was stated often as rebalancing the burden from those who do not actually use the service to those who do. That was seen as reasonable but a high RPI (July 22 was 12.3%, so a normal rail fare increase would have been 13.3% and the normal government cost index, CPI was 10.1%. Given that the customer base has lost business travel (to keep in budget most travellers need to book advance tickets and get early rooms, so the RDW bans have made that impossible most of the time) the non-business travellers could not be expected to pay 13.3% increase.That fare increase would have added to next years inflation figure.

Your argument about the source of inflation is too simplistic. Yes the root cause is oil prices but the way in which rail wages add to inflation would happen next year. Accepting that the cost of DfT supported rail comes from department control totals and is effectively public sector the settlement would affect other public sector pay expectations for settlements (as opposed to initial demands). Now the railway costs have significant non-wage elements which could reduce the feed through to next year's inflation but the effect on the rest of the public sector would be mostly paybill and that would increase the need to taxation which in turn would cause demands for extra pay all over the ecomomy. That is how the railway way dispute feed into inflation. It is self delusion to consider current inflation as being relevant to causation, as you say that is down to Russian action.

Like the government itself the rail industry is suffering because of bad timing. I have been involved in T&Cs being shredded because of harmonisation in large mergers. It is unpleasant and painful but the fragmentation has caused a great deal of disruption in the last few years. It may be that rationalisation of T&Cs is an inevitable change before GBR, taking the industry back to full re-nationalisation and the present strife will not go away any time soon. A single set of T&Cs means change for everybody in the end and I don't envy any of you in the industry.

 

[KM1991]

The announced increase for next year was announced at 3.8%

Wrong

 

[station_road]

The announced increase for next year was announced at 3.8%

5.9% actually

 

[LowLevel]

I do love it when people dive in an make daft assumptions. No I am not happy about it. And what am I going to do about it? About rampant inflation, soaring fuel prices, a rapidly growing budget deficit? I don't know, what are you going to do about it?


How about, oh I don't know, work towards making the industry more efficient and remove the threat of cuts....??

Where is the "work towards" in a predetermined set of national principles? There's no working towards involved, it is the Government's grab list.

 

[SynthD]

How about, oh I don't know, work towards making the industry more efficient and remove the threat of cuts....??

The front line workers may have ideas but if the people in charge don’t want to listen it’s a dead end. Even if the middle management (including TOC heads) did enact successful changes, would it really remove the threat of cuts?

 

[Master29]

I hate to disappoint you but large swathes of the public sector (including me) have had to swallow changes to T&C's, pay and even job security. And then there's the private sector....


No it wasn't. It was rattling itself apart. Once again I cite the franchises collapsing.


Yes, successive governments have mismanaged all sorts of things. However until fairly recently the railways worked mainly as a government contracted service, and yet still couldn't get things right. Its always so very easy to point the finger and blame the other guy, but clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with how the railway industry works. People of all grades within it can accept or deny this, but it is only by accepting it will positive change be possible. Its not the 1980s anymore.

Yes but "blame the other guy" is exactly what the government is doing. Most of Europe manages it better than we do. We can't get it right because of the daft American model this country seems to like operating under. Well, witness the results and not just with the railways. What would you say is "positive change"?

 

[Robcuk]

According to the last page of the appendix posted - no more comp days if you work a public holiday

 

[Bantamzen]

Where is the "work towards" in a predetermined set of national principles? There's no working towards involved, it is the Government's grab list.

So instead the industry should just stand still and not try to improve, is that what you are suggesting?

The front line workers may have ideas but if the people in charge don’t want to listen it’s a dead end. Even if the middle management (including TOC heads) did enact successful changes, would it really remove the threat of cuts?

Is it a dead end though? I work in a sector that for 20 odd years I thought was as such, until I found out I could have an impact.

Yes but "blame the other guy" is exactly what the government is doing. Most of Europe manages it better than we do. We can't get it right because of the daft American model this country seems to like operating under. Well, witness the results and not just with the railways. What would you say is "positive change"?

That would be the Europe that the RMT were happy for us to leave? I know that this isn't anything to do with this dispute, but maybe you see why citing Europe might not be the best idea.

 

[66701GBRF]

I do love it when people dive in an make daft assumptions. No I am not happy about it. And what am I going to do about it? About rampant inflation, soaring fuel prices, a rapidly growing budget deficit? I don't know, what are you going to do about it?


How about, oh I don't know, work towards making the industry more efficient and remove the threat of cuts....??

The question was about eroding of T&Cs, not inflation.

 

[Bantamzen]

The question was about eroding of T&Cs, not inflation.

And my point was that in order to offer substantial pay rises, efficiencies are often sought. Especially when public finances are involved.