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New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

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Bantamzen

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With respect, staff don’t want their weekends taken from them at a whim, and to see their work life balance trashed. I don’t really care about the UK’s “reputation”, whatever that means. Spending time with my family on my weekends off is rather higher a priority. Also, what wage price spiral? That would require wages rising faster then inflation. 9% is still a real terms pay cut. So far we have yet to see wage driven inflation.
Wage rises have to be paid for somehow, regardless of whether or not they are in excess of current inflation rates. In the private sector increased costs are generally passed onto to the customer, therefore inflating prices. In the public sector costs need to be raised, often with taxation which in turn can cause companies to pass on additional costs to the company, therefore inflating prices.

Or even better, call a general election and get a new government in place, a fresh start with a governemnt who actually want to resolve this, as opposed to the current lot who are merely kicking the can down the road and hoping the small remaining support they have will continue to be enraged by rail staff.
Gosh, who knew it was so simple? OK off you go, call a general election... :rolleyes:
 
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gazzaa2

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It just blows my mind that the Government can say with a straight face that these changes to T&Cs are "modernisations". In all other sectors I'm aware of the movement is towards better work-life balance. Certainly in my (non-rail) job a regular subject in meetings with management is how we can make the job more attractive, pay aside, to attract and retain the best talent.

Some years ago, before I started a family, I applied for and got very far in the selection process for a CSA job with a TOC. I'm 100% sure now I dodged a bullet. How could anyone plan for childcare, transport for kids to activities and social events, etc with their shifts and rest days being buggered around with like that outside their control? Madness.

Especially as so many employers are struggling to retain staff/recruit good ones. And this very much applies to the railways.
 

Philip

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Wage rises have to be paid for somehow, regardless of whether or not they are in excess of current inflation rates. In the private sector increased costs are generally passed onto to the customer, therefore inflating prices. In the public sector costs need to be raised, often with taxation which in turn can cause companies to pass on additional costs to the company, therefore inflating prices.

This doesn't mean they should start interfering with things like people's rest days and AL entitlement in the way they seem to be doing; it seems like the much-emphasized improved work-life balance has been put to one side here in favour of the modernizations, or more cynically to make the job less attractive in the hope that more staff will leave. A lot of staff would accept a lower pay wise if it meant their T&Cs weren't interfered with so badly.
 

KM1991

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Sunday's in your week, how does that work. We have one in two so a 35 hr week one week, 43 the next.

If I'm on leave or sick I don't get paid for Sundays currently

Will I on these new arrangements?

Will the Sundays form part of my week in which case I lose 26 Sundays which had I worked them as rostered overtime is worth £4k pa. Will I now have a weekly roster of 39 hours
Sunday premium rate remains the same for both existing and new starters. If Sundays are not inside your working week at the moment, that will remain the same. It will be mandatory overtime.
I currently earn £33k prior to Sundays as I can do any station role. A true multi skilled person on the new framework gets £29k.

Is this pay structure the same across all companies? You get the same money if you work at a 2 platform station or Birmingham New St. Who has the busier workload?
Your pay is protected for 5 years. After this time, any future pay awards will see you get 50% of it in consolidated basic pay and the other 50% a taxable lump sum - this will continue until eventually those on the new CSA level 1-5 eventually catch up and align (which could literally take forever).

Depending on where you work and what duties you cover will depend where people are placed on the CSA level 1-5. Anyone with retail duties or dispatch duties will be looking at level 4A (Retail) and 4B (Dispatch) respectively - no idea of the starting salary of these levels, but as your pay is already higher, you have some protection there.

I believe these new CSA levels will only be in place where ticket offices have closed, and therefore a station reorganisation is then done. Ticket office closures will be subject to public consultations, after this time it will down to the TOCs (probably the DFT in all honesty) to decide which closures to push ahead with.
 

Bantamzen

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This doesn't mean they should start interfering with things like people's rest days and AL entitlement in the way they seem to be doing; it seems like the much-emphasized improved work-life balance has been put to one side here in favour of the modernizations, or more cynically to make the job less attractive in the hope that more staff will leave. A lot of staff would accept a lower pay wise if it meant their T&Cs weren't interfered with so badly.
I don't know enough about how these things work to make an informed comment. However what I do know is that the railways are not making the money they once did, that they are at least partly publicly funded, and that there is huge economic pressure on the Treasury right now. So any deals for any publicly funded sector is going to require more funding at a time when the bean counters are trying bring costs down. I have said right from the beginning that you should choose your fights well. Its entirely possible that the DfT's thinking is that in order to fund increased pay demands, T&Cs will have to change. In fact I guarantee it because this has happened right across the public sector.

I have also always said that if the industry wants out of public funding, and therefore public interference then it needs to woo back the private sector. But that will only happen if the industry demonstrates it's ability to adapt to changing needs & demands, and that it can turn a profit. Which in turn will require changes to how the industry works, and therefore T&Cs may well need to change. That's the bottom line, the industry is where it is because it couldn't make the cut for private investors. We may well have a cluster-you-know-what of a government, but that doesn't change the fact that under the franchise model the industry was failing badly. And if all sides, including the unions, don't figure out a way to make things work again, the proposed changes will seem like a god send compared to what could happen.
 

eldomtom2

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I have also always said that if the industry wants out of public funding, and therefore public interference then it needs to woo back the private sector. But that will only happen if the industry demonstrates it's ability to adapt to changing needs & demands, and that it can turn a profit. Which in turn will require changes to how the industry works, and therefore T&Cs may well need to change. That's the bottom line, the industry is where it is because it couldn't make the cut for private investors. We may well have a cluster-you-know-what of a government, but that doesn't change the fact that under the franchise model the industry was failing badly. And if all sides, including the unions, don't figure out a way to make things work again, the proposed changes will seem like a god send compared to what could happen.
Expecting the railway to turn a profit is delusional.
 

dk1

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Then it shall forever have to live within the constraints of a publicly funded sector.

Just need to get back to more private control & subsidy as before. That way the DfT get less chance to meddle & the status quo goes back to semi-happiness.
 

Bantamzen

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Just need to get back to more private control & subsidy as before. That way the DfT get less chance to meddle & the status quo goes back to semi-happiness.
But before wasn't working was it? That's why the industry is where it is.
 

dk1

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But before wasn't working was it? That's why the industry is where it is.

Depends very much on a TOC by TOC basis. Can’t remember many that didn’t have a FDW agreement for drivers & most pay deals were sorted within a couple of months of their respective anniversaries. Oh, how the old structure is missed now.
 

Bantamzen

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Depends very much on a TOC by TOC basis. Can’t remember many that didn’t have a FDW agreement for drivers & most pay deals were sorted within a couple of months of their respective anniversaries. Oh, how the old structure is missed now.
I think its fair to say that the old structure is never coming back.
 

Halwynd

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Wow, station staff stitched up on this big style

I'm more bothered that the RMT worked on these changes and the only win is the mandatory requirement for DOO.

The government threw in DOO as nothing more than a negotiating tactic. They knew it would never pass, but the ability to thow it back as a bone during negotiations would let RMT members think they had won something.

Removing ticket offices will be just the very start of a longer cost-cutting period - and both staff and passengers alike will be the losers.

Its for RMT members to decide whether they think all that is worth it for 9% over two years, but at the moment the government probably feels as if it has them trussed, basted, and ready for the oven.
 
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43066

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Wage rises have to be paid for somehow, regardless of whether or not they are in excess of current inflation rates. In the private sector increased costs are generally passed onto to the customer, therefore inflating prices. In the public sector costs need to be raised, often with taxation which in turn can cause companies to pass on additional costs to the company, therefore inflating prices.

Very simplistic. The railway (TOCs at least) are private sector businesses. GPs are (generally) employed by privately owned partnerships that are entirely funded by the NHS - yet nobody is examining their pay and ripping up their Ts and Cs.

I don't know enough about how these things work to make an informed comment.

Evidently. So why do you keep wading in, then?

Its entirely possible that the DfT's thinking is that in order to fund increased pay demands, T&Cs will have to change.

Except nobody has pointed to how much the “savings” are. Funny how DOO was added in and then taken away yet the pay order has increased - this is purely ideological.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think its fair to say that the old structure is never coming back.

I wouldn’t be so sure. The old structure remains in place and new structure isn’t being progressed.
 

142blue

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It just blows my mind that the Government can say with a straight face that these changes to T&Cs are "modernisations". In all other sectors I'm aware of the movement is towards better work-life balance. Certainly in my (non-rail) job a regular subject in meetings with management is how we can make the job more attractive, pay aside, to attract and retain the best talent.

Some years ago, before I started a family, I applied for and got very far in the selection process for a CSA job with a TOC. I'm 100% sure now I dodged a bullet. How could anyone plan for childcare, transport for kids to activities and social events, etc with their shifts and rest days being buggered around with like that outside their control? Madness.
Go accommodated

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The government threw in DOO as nothing more than a negotiating tactic. They knew it would never pass, but the ability to thow it back as a bone during negotiations would let RMT members think they had won something.

Removing ticket offices will be just the very start of a longer cost-cutting period - and both staff and passengers alike will be the losers.

Its for RMT members to decide whether they think all that is worth it for 9% over two years, but at the moment the government probably feels as if it has them trussed, basted, and ready for the oven.
9% is about £100 a month more, minus deductions that's about the cost of a coffee every day in an increase to basically be unable to have a life away from work
 

Sleepy

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Especially as so many employers are struggling to retain staff/recruit good ones. And this very much applies to the railways.
If I was a couple of years older I would certainly being looking for new employment with more fixed hours of work if this offer is implemented !!!
 

Bantamzen

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Very simplistic. The railway (TOCs at least) are private sector businesses. GPs are (generally) employed by privately owned partnerships that are entirely funded by the NHS - yet nobody is examining their pay and ripping up their Ts and Cs.
Nobody that you know of....

Evidently. So why do you keep wading in, then?
Why? Because I'm a user of this shoddy industry. Well that's when it can be bothered to operate. So I have an opinion.

Except nobody has pointed to how much the “savings” are. Funny how DOO was added in and then taken away yet the pay order has increased - this is purely ideological.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Ideology will certainly be part of it. But take a long, hard look at the industry. Is it delivering? Is it providing value to the punters?

I wouldn’t be so sure. The old structure remains in place and new structure isn’t being progressed.
Then frankly I would advise anyone eying up the industry as a career to look elsewhere, unless they enjoy losing money through strike after strike.
 

geoffk

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Expecting the railway to turn a profit is delusional.
Does any passenger railway anywhere in the world make a profit? I know that's difficult one to answer as it depends on many factors, e.g. how many of the fixed assets are shared by freight, whether pension liabilities are fully funded etc. Sorry this is digressing from the main subject.
 

g492p

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Wage rises have to be paid for somehow, regardless of whether or not they are in excess of current inflation rates. In the private sector increased costs are generally passed onto to the customer, therefore inflating prices. In the public sector costs need to be raised, often with taxation which in turn can cause companies to pass on additional costs to the company, therefore inflating prices.


Gosh, who knew it was so simple? OK off you go, call a general election... :rolleyes:
Wage rises have to be paid for somehow, regardless of whether or not they are in excess of current inflation rates. In the private sector increased costs are generally passed onto to the customer, therefore inflating prices. In the public sector costs need to be raised, often with taxation which in turn can cause companies to pass on additional costs to the company, therefore inflating prices.


Gosh, who knew it was so simple? OK off you go, call a general election... :rolleyes:
I don’t want to get too off topic, but wage increases have not been the cause of inflation, that has been caused by a combination of energy costs soaring along with corporate profiteering. As inflation is outstripping wage growth at the moment, Labour is becoming cheaper not more expensive.

Anyway, more on topic, the decimation of our work life balance has little to do with inflation.
 

Bantamzen

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I don’t want to get too off topic, but wage increases have not been the cause of inflation, that has been caused by a combination of energy costs soaring along with corporate profiteering. As inflation is outstripping wage growth at the moment, Labour is becoming cheaper not more expensive.

Anyway, more on topic, the decimation of our work life balance has little to do with inflation.
I've never argued that wages were the cause, so I'm not sure what point you are making. All I am saying is that wages add to the inflationary pressure. Its an unavoidable one of course, but it does means that there will always be limits as to how much they can rise.
 

43066

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Why? Because I'm a user of this shoddy industry. Well that's when it can be bothered to operate. So I have an opinion.

But you’ve said you don’t know enough to have an opinion on these changes being proposed, so what does that opinion really count for? You’d be fine with not knowing which days and what times you’d be working next week until near the end of this week, would you?

You seem to keep determined justifying the government’s approach and trotting out the spurious “wage price spiral” nonsense when this isn’t about wages. One comment I’ve heard more than once is “I’d rather no pay rise than this”.

Do you seriously for one second think this government cares about you as a passenger?

Ideology will certainly be part of it. But take a long, hard look at the industry. Is it delivering? Is it providing value to the punters?

Most of it was going a better job before this dispute. Do you think it’s delivering and providing for the punters at the moment?

Then frankly I would advise anyone eying up the industry as a career to look elsewhere, unless they enjoy losing money through strike after strike.

For those of us already here it’s too late. I’d be quite happy to go on strike if my union gets offered this. In fact I’ll be furious if we don’t…
 

dk1

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Does any passenger railway anywhere in the world make a profit? I know that's difficult one to answer as it depends on many factors, e.g. how many of the fixed assets are shared by freight, whether pension liabilities are fully funded etc. Sorry this is digressing from the main subject.
No it's all fundamental. Very few railways particularly regional and rural ones nowhere near cover their costs and never would be expected to. That's just how it is.
 

Bantamzen

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But you’ve said you don’t know enough to have an opinion on these changes being proposed, so what does that opinion really count for? You’d be fine with not knowing which days and what times you’d be working next week until near the end of this week, would you?
What does it count for? (Hurg!) Absolutely nothing! Its just the opinion of one of the plebs that fork out our hard earned to use the railways. But if enough people think like me, maybe fewer will use them in future. And fewer passengers = fewer staff needed. I know, I know, the plebs will return you say. Well I say let's wait and see.

You seem to keep determined justifying the government’s approach and trotting out the spurious “wage price spiral” nonsense when this isn’t about wages. One comment I’ve heard more than once is “I’d rather no pay rise than this”.
Nope.

Do you seriously for one second think this government cares about you as a passenger?
Nope.

Most of it was going a better job before this dispute. Do you think it’s delivering and providing for the punters at the moment?
It hasn't been providing a value service for years, long before this dispute. And its evidenced by the various franchise collapses.

For those of us already here it’s too late. I’d be quite happy to go on strike if my union gets offered this. In fact I’ll be furious if we don’t…
Well it looks like you're going to keep losing money then.
 

InOban

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No it's all fundamental. Very few railways particularly regional and rural ones nowhere near cover their costs and never would be expected to. That's just how it is.
And how it should be. Believe it or not, the major beneficiaries of investment in public transport are those who don't use it, as they and their business can operate more efficiently.
 

PupCuff

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What I'm not sure has been touched on yet is how the RDG proposal throws catering grades under the bus, possibly even more so than station staff.

Early on in the document, there's plenty of spin on "On board train crew roles" with a minor direction to an appendix, which clarifies that "onboard hosts" and "catering staff" are not within this scope.

The heavy implication from the section in which it discusses catering is that the:

...review of the catering proposition that is affordable and valued by passengers by being more closely aligned to passenger needs [which is] to include a review of:
  • 1st class catering provision on longer distance service
  • Standard class catering provision on services where there is sufficient passenger demand

will likely result in a reduction of the headcount, as the section then goes to discuss arrangements for what will happen for displaced staff. Said arrangements are particularly vague and have unhelpful expectations such as:

Displaced employees will be expected to be flexible on what role they are mapped into

Which is of course particularly difficult for on-board grades, to use an example, what options realistically are there for a Service Manager for Avanti based in Liverpool? The likelihood of there being vacant on-board or station roles at their location will be minimal unless there is a sudden increase in services or sudden glut of retirements. Say the only role available is a Dispatch CSA at Crewe; or something in the office in Preston. It adds an extra 45 minutes onto their commute each morning and is a different type of work from the one they are doing. Is it reasonable? Because...

If an employee unreasonably declines an offer of a suitable alternative role, then their employment could be terminated.

I started out in catering grades, however many years ago, as did many of the colleagues I work with now who have progressed and grown through the industry. The above reference to "catering proposition that is affordable and valued by passengers" is only half the story, it puts the focus on the tea trolley not the person, actually the other half of the story is that you have an additional trained member of staff on the train (in some cases where units are non-walkthrough they may be the only member of customer facing staff in that unit) so when it all goes wrong you have someone with the training and experience to deal with it. It's akin to saying that revenue protection is just penalty faring folk without tickets; yes, but you also have a trained member of rail staff carrying the ticket machine who if there's a fire or security incident or whatnot will know what to do.

If I was still in catering grades I would want to see some more firm assurance of what the arrangements for alternative employment would be if the review determined that there were too few brews sold. Something along the lines of:
  1. Option of voluntary redundancy with a suitable package, then
  2. Staff who cannot do safety critical roles for eg medical reasons should be first in the queue for suitable non-safety critical employment, then
  3. All vacancies first being advertised to staff 'at risk', if not successful then
  4. A fair one-to-one process of looking at what jobs are available and could be allocated, then
  5. Re-allocation to some form of revenue & customer service role at current location on existing salary (unless the role salary is higher), even if this means expanding or indeed creating said revenue team.
This would protect the on-train customer service presence, give folk an out who would prefer to leave the business, support colleagues with medical restrictions and give some clarity to staff who may be displaced as to what their role will eventually be and indeed an assurance that there will still be a role for them in the industry and it isn't an attempt at cutting staff numbers by the back door.
 

jon0844

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No railway can ever make a profit in the true sense, as it will always need a subsidy unless we want fares through the roof.

Most countries see public transport as a necessity for the economic benefits, just as we dump fortunes into maintaining roads that aren't profitable either (unless perhaps we made every road a toll road). This is done because people need to get around to work and spend money. There are also climate related benefits for subsidising green transport options, which also isn't free.

If we didn't subsidise things, why have schools or hospitals? Why save the lives of people who get sick? Why educate kids who likely only going to need to do simple jobs for low pay, where they can be given a few days training. We'll have automated a lot of those jobs anyway.

Want your kids to have a better chance in life? Well, go private.

(I realise that this Government would likely very much want to do many of these things, hence why this is indeed an ideological battle).
 

Annetts key

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Over on the Network Rail side:

Our Ref: BR6/14/2

21st January 2023

TO ALL NETWORK RAIL MEMBERS

Dear Colleague,

DEFEND JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - NETWORK RAIL

Since your rejection by almost 2 to 1 in a referendum of the most recent company offer, RMT has met with Network Rail in a series of meetings, which commenced with an initial meeting in the presence of the Minister for Rail.

Both in writing to the Union, and publicly in the media, Network Rail demanded that we put the previous offer to you in a referendum. Now they need to respect your democratic vote and table a fresh and improved offer.

RMT has made it clear directly to the company and in the presence of the Minister that while we are prepared to hear any clarifications the company wishes to make; we are seeking a fresh and improved offer for you to consider.

This dispute cannot be settled by the company simply demanding that you vote again and again on the same offer until they get the answer they want. Network Rail needs to listen and acknowledge that they need to do better to gain your support for a settlement.

Finally, the meeting which was cancelled yesterday was an informal catch-up between parties before formal meetings resume next week.

I will of course keep you advised of all developments.
Yours sincerely,

Michael Lynch
General Secretary
(I cannot link to to the source, as this was sent out by email)
 

Robertj21a

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Surely, aren't these various proposed changes to RDW etc just a means to allow the government to then withdraw them (in due course.....) in exchange for a low-ish pay rise ?

Then, if comments on this thread are accurate, many rail staff will breath a sigh of relief, despite only a small pay rise?

Quite a clever ploy I guess.
 

RPI

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What I'm not sure has been touched on yet is how the RDG proposal throws catering grades under the bus, possibly even more so than station staff.

Early on in the document, there's plenty of spin on "On board train crew roles" with a minor direction to an appendix, which clarifies that "onboard hosts" and "catering staff" are not within this scope.

The heavy implication from the section in which it discusses catering is that the:



will likely result in a reduction of the headcount, as the section then goes to discuss arrangements for what will happen for displaced staff. Said arrangements are particularly vague and have unhelpful expectations such as:



Which is of course particularly difficult for on-board grades, to use an example, what options realistically are there for a Service Manager for Avanti based in Liverpool? The likelihood of there being vacant on-board or station roles at their location will be minimal unless there is a sudden increase in services or sudden glut of retirements. Say the only role available is a Dispatch CSA at Crewe; or something in the office in Preston. It adds an extra 45 minutes onto their commute each morning and is a different type of work from the one they are doing. Is it reasonable? Because...



I started out in catering grades, however many years ago, as did many of the colleagues I work with now who have progressed and grown through the industry. The above reference to "catering proposition that is affordable and valued by passengers" is only half the story, it puts the focus on the tea trolley not the person, actually the other half of the story is that you have an additional trained member of staff on the train (in some cases where units are non-walkthrough they may be the only member of customer facing staff in that unit) so when it all goes wrong you have someone with the training and experience to deal with it. It's akin to saying that revenue protection is just penalty faring folk without tickets; yes, but you also have a trained member of rail staff carrying the ticket machine who if there's a fire or security incident or whatnot will know what to do.

If I was still in catering grades I would want to see some more firm assurance of what the arrangements for alternative employment would be if the review determined that there were too few brews sold. Something along the lines of:
  1. Option of voluntary redundancy with a suitable package, then
  2. Staff who cannot do safety critical roles for eg medical reasons should be first in the queue for suitable non-safety critical employment, then
  3. All vacancies first being advertised to staff 'at risk', if not successful then
  4. A fair one-to-one process of looking at what jobs are available and could be allocated, then
  5. Re-allocation to some form of revenue & customer service role at current location on existing salary (unless the role salary is higher), even if this means expanding or indeed creating said revenue team.
This would protect the on-train customer service presence, give folk an out who would prefer to leave the business, support colleagues with medical restrictions and give some clarity to staff who may be displaced as to what their role will eventually be and indeed an assurance that there will still be a role for them in the industry and it isn't an attempt at cutting staff numbers by the back door.
A lot of the catering grades in GWR are also front set leads (as known in GWR) and are required to be in the opposite set to the guard on 10 car IET's so they do a function that is relevant to the operation of the train. (I appreciate thats something they may try to get rid of, but they do more than merely serve tea)
 

KM1991

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No railway can ever make a profit in the true sense, as it will always need a subsidy unless we want fares through the roof.

Most countries see public transport as a necessity for the economic benefits, just as we dump fortunes into maintaining roads that aren't profitable either (unless perhaps we made every road a toll road). This is done because people need to get around to work and spend money. There are also climate related benefits for subsidising green transport options, which also isn't free.

If we didn't subsidise things, why have schools or hospitals? Why save the lives of people who get sick? Why educate kids who likely only going to need to do simple jobs for low pay, where they can be given a few days training. We'll have automated a lot of those jobs anyway.

Want your kids to have a better chance in life? Well, go private.

(I realise that this Government would likely very much want to do many of these things, hence why this is indeed an ideological battle).
Excellent post.
 
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