New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[Bletchleyite]

Northern conductors get 2p which is one of the highest a scan but that will probably because it’s DFT controlled

While I think it's silly to have to pay people twice to do their job, this is a small incentive (couple of pints a day's worth) at small cost, so it is probably pragmatically a good idea.

 

[74A]

At Kemble and Stroud ticket office staff also dispatch trains. They close the ticket window to do so. TVM are also available.

 

[Bald Rick]

What about the RMT and Network Rail, as a Signaller here in Glasgow we have continually felt left in the dark regarding negotiations. Think this is now 14 days without info other than last night email about no offer in writing yet ( my arse).

You should have had a brief from your LOM last Friday or early this week; if not ask them for the latest.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It just wouldn’t work they can’t do away with safety critical guards who are fully trained in emergencies especially on 11 carriage trains. That will never ever happen unless the Tories force it through illegally

You raise an interesting point in the last part of your posting. Can someone say when was the last time that a Government attempted to force through any measure illegally and what was the outcome?

 

[Horizon22]

That would be very difficult for the RMT. No doubt they will try to avoid that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==



Difficult to say. The pay offer has much more impact on station staff, as they are paid less.

This would be interesting, especially if there's a split for those TOCs that don't have a huge ticket office operation, nor many guards and most of the RMT is made up of station staff (gateline, dispatch, supervisors, local control) as on some primarily metro TOCs. Even then, guards probably make up a sizable %.

 

[43066]

The line above struck me as I may be misunderstanding - but why would the introduction of a new piece of technology (say for instance a new handheld device for printing tickets/taking payment or provide a quicker method to get access to updated train/running information) necessitate additional payment? Would this be because of the daily usage or to assist with training and therefore unable to perform your normal duties that day, etc.? The latter (training) I completely agree with, as without training it's just another piece of technology that nobody understands, but the former I don't understand as if it makes life easier or assists with your duties, surely that's the payment in itself.

Partly because (for example) guards who used to earn commission from selling tickets might no longer receive any from scanning e tickets - potentially leading to a loss of several thousand pounds worth of income per year. Comparisons to office workers needing to use a newer version of Microsoft Office etc completely miss this.

 

[brick60000]

As it should be. People at the bottom end are most likely the ones restorting to food banks so they can afford hot water once a week.

This opens up a whole other debate.

The cost of living crisis affects everybody - because if you don’t live within your means then what is the point of earning a higher salary and taking the stress and responsibility that comes with it?

If you’re somebody on £80k a year - you’re probably going to have a mortgage, a car, a family and other financial commitments that reflect that.

Prices going up is affecting those people too - and why should they have to give up what they work for any more than anybody else?

For this reason I think everybody should be getting a fairer pay proposal, rather than boosting just those at the bottom end of the scale.

 

[RPI]

Partly because (for example) guards who used to earn commission from selling tickets might no longer receive any from scanning e tickets - potentially leading to a loss of several thousand pounds worth of income per year. Comparisons to office workers needing to use a newer version of Microsoft Office etc completely miss this.

Its only some TOC'S that still have "technology payments", it was done away with here donkeys years ago

 

[Facing Back]

You raise an interesting point in the last part of your posting. Can someone say when was the last time that a Government attempted to force through any measure illegally and what was the outcome?

It happens quite regularly. Either a law is introduced which is at odds with a clause in an existing law, or an executive action is taken (ie a government decision which does not require a law) which someone deems to be in breach of a law in which case the government can amend the new or the old law so that there is no contradiction or the high court can decide that the new law clearly supersedes the old law and is therefore valid.

I'm curious why the operation of 11 carriage trains under DOO would be considered illegal though. The last legal challenge I recall on DOO was on the Gatwick Express which was settled in the TOC's favour.

Please note I am not opening the can of worms that is DOO - as far as this thread is concerned that has been kicked down the road. I'm merely curious why the op thinks it would be illegal.

 

[thedotlair]

Partly because (for example) guards who used to earn commission from selling tickets might no longer receive any from scanning e tickets - potentially leading to a loss of several thousand pounds worth of income per year. Comparisons to office workers needing to use a newer version of Microsoft Office etc completely miss this.

Thank you, apologies if that was common knowledge regarding commission-based selling. Unfortunately, there's a lot of twaddle in published media (trusted or not) regarding the introduction of new technology and unions pushing back, so better to get the right answer from somebody who actually has real-world experience and knowledge. Appreciate you taking the time to answer.

 

[Bald Rick]

It just wouldn’t work they can’t do away with safety critical guards who are fully trained in emergencies especially on 11 carriage trains.

I’ve travelled on 12 car trains with no safety critical guard most days for well over a decade. Seems to work fine.

 

[david1212]

As far as TOCs trying to implement DOO at a local level goes, I think it's highly unlikely that any of them are really going to think it's a good idea to launch the same attack that the DfT themselves have just failed with, particularly if the already deeply untrustworthy DfT have awarded themselves even more scope to distance themselves from it and pretend it's all the TOCs and union's fault. Under the National Rail Contract structure it's difficult to see what the incentive would be, given that a TOC is paid a set fee to provide the service and staff costs are obviously baked in to this. Overall it's pretty unlikely I think, this is merely the DfT backing down without openly admitting it.

This is one view. It does though ignore that currently the TOC's are fundamentally puppets to the DfT / Treasury. Other threads have covered e.g. where logically a TOC would hire available stock to meet demand so increasing revenue rather than driving away discretionary passengers due to overcrowding and/or long gaps between services.
Time will tell if the DfT go quiet on DOO or expect the TOC's to implement it. If the latter and failure it will of course be deemed that the TOC's not the DfT have failed.

 

[Fred26]

That is the case, as the Ts & Cs vary wildly from TOC to TOC so one size does not fit all.

So, if that's the case, why not take it off the table as they have with DOO? Let the individual TOCs negotiate those terms.

Is GTR not DOO?

Yes.

so just moved to another table ( i.e. buck passed ) not off the table at all.

Moved to a dispute for the individual (relevant) TOCs to negotiate.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hasn't it been the case at some stages that staff have been paid for doing things like scanning e-tickets (seem to remember seeing something that TPE staff getting 2p per scan)

Apologies if this is incorrect but if true it is completely nuts.

While I think it's silly to have to pay people twice to do their job, this is a small incentive (couple of pints a day's worth) at small cost, so it is probably pragmatically a good idea.

Not really. Northern guards earn commission on the tickets they sell. The numbers of ticket sold has fallen massively in the past few years (now only 5% of ticket sales are on train for Northern) meaning an effective pay cut (yes commission isn't quite the same as your base pay but still). It therefore seems quite a pragmatic solution actually to help make up this loss of income by giving a small amount per ticket scan. The member of staff doesn't lose out quite as badly (I wonder if any Northern conductors might comment on how the income from scans compares to what they made in commission?) from the change in the way that tickets are bought and issued and the TOC has staff who remain motivated to check all tickets all the time.

I agree that a separate payment for using a new bit of tech would be bonkers. But making up for lost income and incentivising people to behave in a certain way? That seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

 

[43066]

Thank you, apologies if that was common knowledge regarding commission-based selling. Unfortunately, there's a lot of twaddle in published media (trusted or not) regarding the introduction of new technology and unions pushing back, so better to get the right answer from somebody who actually has real-world experience and knowledge. Appreciate you taking the time to answer.

No worries at all! Completely understandable as there’s a lot of misinformation/misunderstanding about the role of TUs generally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

While I think it's silly to have to pay people twice to do their job, this is a small incentive (couple of pints a day's worth) at small cost, so it is probably pragmatically a good idea.

Yet the private sector has long realised that “paying people twice to do their job” via commission for sales people, bonuses, performance related pay etc. soon pays for itself.

 

[12LDA28C]

So, if that's the case, why not take it off the table as they have with DOO? Let the individual TOCs negotiate those terms.

Because the DfT is of the opinion that these changes to Ts & Cs are how the pay rise is going to be financed and the onus is on the individual TOCs to implement these changes as appropriate. Don't forget that some TOCs will already have some of those conditions in place to a lesser or greater extent whilst for other TOCs, changes to Ts & Cs will be much greater and so more likely to be unacceptable to union members.

I'm sure every member of rail staff would love a pay rise with no strings attached but sadly that seems to be a thing of the past.

 

[43066]

that these changes to Ts & Cs are how the pay rise is going to be financed and the onus is on the individual TOCs to implement these changes

It’s interesting how nobody seems to have produced a breakdown as to exactly how the proposed changes translate to savings to fund said pay rise, however. Given that the the Ts and Cs vary so wildly, yet the pay rise is “one size fits all”, one might imagine nobody has actually checked.

 

[Fred26]

Because the DfT is of the opinion that these changes to Ts & Cs are how the pay rise is going to be financed and the onus is on the individual TOCs to implement these changes as appropriate. Don't forget that some TOCs will already have some of those conditions in place to a lesser or greater extent whilst for other TOCs, changes to Ts & Cs will be much greater and so more likely to be unacceptable to union members.

No. I am well aware that the Ts&Cs are different from TOC to TOC, and also within TOCs too.
My point is, if DOO can be given to the TOCs to be dealt with then so can every other condition the government want.

I'm sure every member of rail staff would love a pay rise with no strings attached but sadly that seems to be a thing of the past.

That's government speak. The government are the ones insisting on T&C changes and are offering a payrise as incentive.
I know many staff who would take 0%, with no strings, but the government won't offer that because they're hellbent on destroying our jobs.

 

[Mainsideman]

The rmt have released the proposed structuring for the new station role, is it just me or is dispatch not included here

 

[Bletchleyite]

The rmt have released the proposed structuring for the new station role, is it just me or is dispatch not included here

Isn't it at the bottom of the 4th column?

 

[Fred26]

The rmt have released the proposed structuring for the new station role, is it just me or is dispatch not included here

Fifth column is missing.

 

[Mainsideman]

Fifth column is missing.

That is just the team leader column

 

[Horizon22]

The rmt have released the proposed structuring for the new station role, is it just me or is dispatch not included here

"Platform marshalling" in Level 3? and "PTI dispatch timetable duties" in Level 4B?

To be honest this seems like a grading of customer service/mobility > gateline > advanced customer service / dispatch > retail and dispatch which is sort of along the lines many TOCs have now. Weirdly they've split what is really just one role into 5/6 different similar sounding parts. It also doesn't look very well sense-checked ("profession customer service" and "impartial retail advice" in twice).

 

[Fred26]

That is just the team leader column

So? It was part of the table, not separate from it.
I'm not sure why you'd choose to crop it.

 

[12LDA28C]

My point is, if DOO can be given to the TOCs to be dealt with then so can every other condition the government want.

Unless I've misunderstood the situation, that is exactly what is proposed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

I know many staff who would take 0%, with no strings, but the government won't offer that because they're hellbent on destroying our jobs.

And yet these strikes were kicked off on the premise that rail staff had not had a pay rise for three years and deserved one, especially taking into account the cost of living crisis, no?

 

[Fred26]

And yet these strikes were kicked off on the premise that rail staff had not had a pay rise for three years and deserved one, especially taking into account the cost of living crisis, no?

Each individual member has their own reasons for voting for strike action.
Pay was one of the reasons listed for strike, but it was down the list.
Personally, I voted for strike because the TOC wasn't negotiating. My reasons have changed now that negotiations are happening and the proposals are clear.

 

[KM1991]

Based on the full RDG pay offer document that was released an hour or so ago, it looks like some of these changes might not even be implemented until after the next general election, when you take into account the public consultations they say they will hold regarding ticket offices.

On a better (personal) note, it is clearly stated in the document that anyone with a consistent history of booking off Sundays will be given a one off opportunity to be exempt from all Sunday working by giving written notice prior to the new protocol being implemented.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Based on the full RDG pay offer document that was released an hour or so ago, it looks like some of these changes might not even be implemented until after the next general election, when you take into account the public consultations they say they will hold regarding ticket offices.

On a better (personal) note, it is clearly stated in the document that anyone with a consistent history of booking off Sundays will be given a one off opportunity to be exempt from all Sunday working by giving written notice prior to the new protocol being implemented.

So not sure what has really been achieved by either side in this dispute other than staff losing money the industry increasing its losses making the challenge of balancing the books ever more challenging.

 

[KM1991]

So not sure what has really been achieved by either side in this dispute other than staff losing money the industry increasing its losses making the challenge of balancing the books ever more challenging.

In the long run I guess some sort of harmonisation regarding pay structures for all TOCs. As older staff leave, new starters join on altered T’s and C’s. New entrants for station roles to start on £20,800, before being able to gradually progress. Guards and on board members to start on £24,000 and then, I quote, “Following completion of training and attaining core competence there will be a three-stage annual salary progression of 70%, 80% and 90% respectively prior to attaining the full salary for the role”.

Old British Rail T’s and C’s to be phased out.

One thing that did stand out is “The standard Leave Entitlement for new employees will be 5 weeks and 8 days inclusive of bank and public holidays”. Where do I get some of that?!?!

 

[Facing Back]

In the long run I guess some sort of harmonisation regarding pay structures for all TOCs. As older staff leave, new starters join on altered T’s and C’s. New entrants for station roles to start on £20,800, before being able to gradually progress. Guards and on board members to start on £24,000 and then, I quote, “Following completion of training and attaining core competence there will be a three-stage annual salary progression of 70%, 80% and 90% respectively prior to attaining the full salary for the role”.

Old British Rail T’s and C’s to be phased out.

One thing that did stand out is “The standard Leave Entitlement for new employees will be 5 weeks and 8 days inclusive of bank and public holidays”. Where do I get some of that?!?!

is the full document in the public domain somewhere?