Redevelopment Plans for Liverpool Street - Development Policy Going Backwards

[WesternBiker]

Historic England has published updated list entries for both the station and the former Great Eastern Hotel. The update for the station specifically mentions the trainshed extension of 1985-1992 (which the redevelopment proposes to demolish), while the hotel is upgraded from Grade II to Grade II*.

I'm no expert on listed buildings, but I guess this may pose an additional challenge for the redevelopment plans? As someone who rather likes the current concourse, I won't be too sad if it does, but I doubt it'll be fatal for them - after all the 1980s redevelopment also involved the demolition of listed buildings and I'd be surprised if this happening hadn't been anticipated as a possibility when the plans were being drawn up. There's been no public comment from Network Rail or the developers that I've seen, but both SAVE Britain's Heritage and the Victorian Society have welcomed the update.

There's quite a difference between Grade II and Grade II* in terms of additional challenge - although, as you surmise, it's not an absolute barrier. But it means the justification (why its needed) and the remedy (the proposals) will receive more scrutiny and have a higher bar in terms of limiting detriment to the listed structures. I'm guessing this may well go to a public inquiry.

The Victorian Society aren't happy - as set out here. They've launched a fighting fund to challenge the proposals. The key thing here - and relevant if it goes to a planning inquiry - is that they are a statutory consultee, and they have not been involved in the proposals to date, despite asking. This is a bit of an own goal by Network Rail, TfL and the developers.

Victorian Society launches fighting fund to protect Liverpool Street Station​

In light of the announcement on 6 October 2022 by Shard developer Sellar, we have grave concerns about Herzog & de Meuron's plans to modernise Liverpool Street Station that include a 16 storey tower. The Victorian Society - under John Betjeman's leadership - successfully campaigned to save the station from demolition in June 1975. We won then, and we will succeed once again!

The Victorian Society has launched a fighting fund after details of plans to redevelop Liverpool Street station were issued in a press release yesterday. The move comes months after the Victorian Society wrote to Network Rail asking to be involved at an early stage to ensure that any damage to heritage is limited. An offer to meet the developer finally came on the same day the press release was issued with outline details of the plans.
Victorian Society Director, Joe O’Donnell, said: It is extremely disappointing that a proposed redevelopment of a major Victorian station has got this far without speaking to the Victorian Society - especially where public bodies such as Network Rail and TFL are involved.
As a statutory consultee, it makes sense to speak to us at an early stage. However, despite our writing to TfL and Network Rail months ago, asking to be involved in discussions, we heard nothing until the plans were announced. Consequently, we cannot comment on the details of the plans. It is unclear how much of the listed building will be lost or how many storeys – possibly sixteen - will be built over the concourse.
Given Sellar’s previous developments of the Paddington Cube and the Shard, this development is likely to overwhelm the listed building. The few images provided hint at the sky above the concourse being totally blocked out by a view of a new tower. If this scheme turns out to be as harmful to the listed building and surrounding conservation area as it seems, we will fight it. We successfully supported a public inquiry in 1975 against the station’s demolition which resulted in the sensitive scheme that we have today. We have launched a fund to fight this at public inquiry again, if need be.
To support the campaign you can make a donation to the Victorian Society’s legal fund here:

 

[Wolfie]

There's quite a difference between Grade II and Grade II* in terms of additional challenge - although, as you surmise, it's not an absolute barrier. But it means the justification (why its needed) and the remedy (the proposals) will receive more scrutiny and have a higher bar in terms of limiting detriment to the listed structures. I'm guessing this may well go to a public inquiry.

The Victorian Society aren't happy - as set out here. They've launched a fighting fund to challenge the proposals. The key thing here - and relevant if it goes to a planning inquiry - is that they are a statutory consultee, and they have not been involved in the proposals to date, despite asking. This is a bit of an own goal by Network Rail, TfL and the developers.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.... I suspect that they knew damned well that the proposals would never be acceptable to a conservation body.

 

[dosxuk]

The Victorian Society aren't happy - as set out here.

Poor choice of image from them for that press release - the pictures of the internal changes don't look that bad - sure, it's getting rid of the 90's extension, but it looks nice and bright and airy - it looks odd to complain about.

They should have gone with the impressions from outside, where you can see the extent and how out of place the intended construction actually is.

 

[Wolfie]

Interesting. Historic England have now given the 1992 work Grade 2 status and upgraded the hotel listing to Grade 2*. Rather suggests that they will oppose the plans....

Historic England expands listings for Liverpool St ahead of station’s overhaul

Historic England has expanded its listing for Liverpool Street Station ahead of the submission of more detailed plans to overhaul the London terminus by Herzog & de Meuron

www.architectsjournal.co.uk

 

[yorksrob]

Whatever one thinks of Liverpool Street, it's important that these plans are defeated, otherwise they'll want to ruin Victoria and Waterloo as well !

 

[tomuk]

Whatever one thinks of Liverpool Street, it's important that these plans are defeated, otherwise they'll want to ruin Victoria and Waterloo as well !

Not sure of the equivalence. Victoria already has a office block\shopping centre above the platforms and the rest of the concourses are a bit of a hotchpotch. At Waterloo you have a great open concourse albeit encroached on with the mezzanine and retail outlets. Neither of them are St Pancras or Paddington or even Kings Cross like.

 

[TAS]

That reminds me. I received the below email yesterday, about an exhibition focused on the new 16 storey commercial building later this month:

Join us for our next public exhibition

Learn more about our plans for:

• A seven-day-a-week leisure and retail destination
• An inclusive and sustainable commercial building
• A new rooftop garden and green spaces for the public

Wednesday 18 and Thursday 19 January
12pm - 7pm
1901 Ballroom,
Andaz London Liverpool Street, 40 Liverpool Street, EC2M 7QN

We look forward to welcoming you to our next consultation event on our proposed transformation of Liverpool Street station.

We were delighted with the support and comments received during the first phase of our consultation. The feedback shared identified that upgrading the station was a priority, agreeing that it is time to create an accessible, integrated transport hub with improved public spaces and new amenities serving the local community, workers, and visitors.

Now, we would like to invite you to our next exhibition to discuss our plans to create a landmark destination including a commercial building that will enable us to deliver £450 million of station improvements at no cost to passengers or the taxpayer.

This new building will comprise up to 10 floors of workspace below a new six storey Andaz hotel and will sit above the existing station concourse, its entrances, and the existing Andaz Hotel. The building has been designed to meet the highest levels of sustainability, targeting BREEAM Outstanding, creating new green spaces benefitting the local community, visitors and workers alike.

We envisage Liverpool Street station becoming a landmark seven-day-a-week destination in its own right. The scheme will create jobs and boost economic growth, whilst creating new public spaces and gardens for all to enjoy.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure of the equivalence. Victoria already has a office block\shopping centre above the platforms and the rest of the concourses are a bit of a hotchpotch. At Waterloo you have a great open concourse albeit encroached on with the mezzanine and retail outlets. Neither of them are St Pancras or Paddington or even Kings Cross like.

I certainly wouldn't want anything to encroach further on the light and space of these two great stations. Yet I'm sure we had a thread on here a couple of years back of nefarious plans by NR to develop Waterloo.

 

[Tio Terry]

Whatever one thinks of Liverpool Street, it's important that these plans are defeated, otherwise they'll want to ruin Victoria and Waterloo as well !

Waterloo is not an easy station to raft over, if it was it would have been done by now. The station is built on arches which are not that strong. If you wanted to raft over it you would need to pile way below the arches to find firm foundations, which wouldn't be cheap and would most certainly be disruptive requiring closure of pairs of platforms to accommodate piling rigs. The Concourse is constantly moving, you used to be able to drive taxis on to the old Boat Train platforms, but not now because there is a weight concern. There are places on the Mezzanine you can stand and feel the vibrations from the underground trains passing through.
Any additional development above the station will be very costly indeed.

 

[WesternBiker]

That reminds me. I received the below email yesterday, about an exhibition focused on the new 16 storey commercial building later this month:

"We were delighted with the support and comments received during the first phase of our consultation. The feedback shared identified that upgrading the station was a priority, agreeing that it is time to create an accessible, integrated transport hub with improved public spaces and new amenities serving the local community, workers, and visitors."

Of course, such consultations always identify the feedback that suits their proposals. Who wouldn't want an "accessible, integrated transport hub..etc"?

Just not necessarily what is currently proposed...

 

[WizCastro197]

Whatever one thinks of Liverpool Street, it's important that these plans are defeated, otherwise they'll want to ruin Victoria and Waterloo as well !

Not sure you can ruin Victoria further. Somewhat disappointing really, now that I think about it.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure you can ruin Victoria further. Somewhat disappointing really, now that I think about it.

I always think it's splendidly grand to arrive into.

Perhaps they can re-develop the covered over bit, as it's already dingy.

 

[WizCastro197]

I always think it's splendidly grand to arrive into.

Perhaps they can re-develop the covered over bit, as it's already dingy.

It is splendidly grand to arrive at, you are completely correct, but all splendidness, soon disappears when you see the covered bit.

Remove Victoria Place is the answer to Victoria’s problems.

 

[yorksrob]

Remove Victoria Place is the answer to Victoria’s problems.

Alas that's the last thing a developer's likely to do !

 

[WizCastro197]

Alas that's the last thing a developer's likely to do !

Yes sadly, I do hope they take the initiative and rework the station with Victoria Place and the stations all receiving sufficient natural light, I’ll start a new thread to discuss further.

 

[Chris125]

Updated proposals in the latest consultation documents: https://www.upgradelss.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/A3-Exhibition-collection-website.pdf

New images released of 16-storey development on top of Liverpool Street station

New images have been released of the 16-storey development being proposed to sit on top of a transformed Liverpool Street station.

www.standard.co.uk

The consultation itself can be found here: https://www.upgradelss.com/consultation/

Following our first exhibition in November, we invite you to take part in our next event, to be held between 18 – 25 January. Our latest plans will be available to view here from Wednesday 18 until Wednesday 25 January. You can also visit us to see the plans in person and meet the team at the 1901 Ballroom, Andaz London Liverpool Street, EC2M 7QN on Wednesday 18 and Thursday 19 January between 12pm and 7pm.

 

[TAS]

Well, I can certainly see why they weren't in any hurry to reveal that image.

 

[WizCastro197]

Updated proposals in the latest consultation documents: https://www.upgradelss.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/A3-Exhibition-collection-website.pdf

New images released of 16-storey development on top of Liverpool Street station

New images have been released of the 16-storey development being proposed to sit on top of a transformed Liverpool Street station.

www.standard.co.uk

The consultation itself can be found here: https://www.upgradelss.com/consultation/

Looks a bit boring.

 

[Wolfie]

Well, I can certainly see why they weren't in any hurry to reveal that image.

Indeed. A boring bland box.

 

[zwk500]

I always think it's splendidly grand to arrive into.

The Chatham platforms perhaps, but the arrival into the Brighton side starts with neglected car park ambience, then moves to run-of-the-mill underground metro station atmosphere before you get depressing food court and only then do you get the grand reveal of the Concourse. At least at Waterloo you step off onto a bright, airy platform. Heck, even Euston's arrival is better than the Brighton side of Victorias.

But on a serious note, I really don't get the fetishisation of Victoriana on the railways. Modern stations can be excellent pieces of architecture that fulfill the functional brief as well as they have the grandeur of the journey. Look at the King's Cross western concourse, London Bridge or Blackfriars rebuilds. The renders for Liverpool street don't look too bad in my opinion, certainly no greater architectural crime against London than the curved skyscraper that sets things on fire.

 

[Chris125]

But on a serious note, I really don't get the fetishisation of Victoriana on the railways. Modern stations can be excellent pieces of architecture that fulfill the functional brief as well as they have the grandeur of the journey. Look at the King's Cross western concourse, London Bridge or Blackfriars rebuilds. The renders for Liverpool street don't look too bad in my opinion, certainly no greater architectural crime against London than the curved skyscraper that sets things on fire.

They can be excellent architecture, but in what world does this count? It's a glass box so uninspiring they've resorted to a laughably unrealistic bright white translucent glow that we all know it won't have.

Neither King's Cross, London Bridge or Blackfriars dumped an office block above their respective concourses - Cannon Street would be a more obvious comparison, as would the aborted plans for Span 4 at Paddington. Need I say more!

 

[tomuk]

They can be excellent architecture, but in what world does this count? It's a glass box so uninspiring they've resorted to a laughably unrealistic bright white translucent glow that we all know it won't have.

Neither King's Cross, London Bridge or Blackfriars dumped an office block above their respective concourses - Cannon Street would be a more obvious comparison, as would the aborted plans for Span 4 at Paddington. Need I say more!

Blackfriars has a hideous 70s office block where the concourse was only recently improved by the Thameslink rebuild with the new entrance to the side.

At London Bridge there was a 70s office development that included a new concourse, overbridge, bus station and office tower now all demolished and replaced by the Shard which it self sits above part of the upper concourse.

Liverpool St already has the late 80s Broadgate office development over the high numbered platforms.

 

[nlogax]

Updated proposals in the latest consultation documents: https://www.upgradelss.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/A3-Exhibition-collection-website.pdf

What a miserable, anaemic vista that image projects. I'm no Victoriana fetishist (that's a great phrase btw) but this proposal is the work of architects who obviously feel the need to remove any and all traces of human character from an environment.

 

[yorksrob]

The Chatham platforms perhaps, but the arrival into the Brighton side starts with neglected car park ambience, then moves to run-of-the-mill underground metro station atmosphere before you get depressing food court and only then do you get the grand reveal of the Concourse. At least at Waterloo you step off onto a bright, airy platform. Heck, even Euston's arrival is better than the Brighton side of Victorias.

But on a serious note, I really don't get the fetishisation of Victoriana on the railways. Modern stations can be excellent pieces of architecture that fulfill the functional brief as well as they have the grandeur of the journey. Look at the King's Cross western concourse, London Bridge or Blackfriars rebuilds. The renders for Liverpool street don't look too bad in my opinion, certainly no greater architectural crime against London than the curved skyscraper that sets things on fire.

I think that a grand Victorian station can be the best thing in the world.

I'm not against modern stations per se. With Euston, the arch and the great Hall were the main parts of merit, and I quite like the 1960's concourse. I'm quite fond of Leeds' new train shed as well.

I think it depends on a comparison between what's built and what's been replaced.

 

[zwk500]

They can be excellent architecture, but in what world does this count? It's a glass box so uninspiring they've resorted to a laughably unrealistic bright white translucent glow that we all know it won't have.

Neither King's Cross, London Bridge or Blackfriars dumped an office block above their respective concourses - Cannon Street would be a more obvious comparison, as would the aborted plans for Span 4 at Paddington. Need I say more!

The facade is uninspiring, but it's an office block! The flow and height of the public realm looks alright to me, especially for a station that will continue to have a high volume of commuters for many years to come. I also prefer it when architecture doesn't hide that it can't live up to adjacent buildings, or that it's come after. The St Pancras extension is a classic case for me - completely different style, tone and materials. No soiling of the Barlow masterpiece (and, BTW for me St Pancras trainshed is the finest arrival in a new country anywhere in the world) but instead it elevates it by comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having seen that PDF I think it actually looks OK, a bit Kings Cross like maybe. What's there now looks dated and crowded, so maybe it will actually be better?

 

[yorksrob]

Having seen that PDF I think it actually looks OK, a bit Kings Cross like maybe. What's there now looks dated and crowded, so maybe it will actually be better?

The entrance looks a bit 1980's, but the trainshed still looks good and continues with the original one well.

Why couldn't they build a new mezzanine with this, as was done with Waterloo, rather than replacing bits of it.

 

[Chris125]

The facade is uninspiring, but it's an office block!

It's meant to be a London railway terminus!

The St Pancras extension is a classic case for me - completely different style, tone and materials. No soiling of the Barlow masterpiece (and, BTW for me St Pancras trainshed is the finest arrival in a new country anywhere in the world) but instead it elevates it by comparison.

It's a classic case for me too! I have zero issue with using modern designs and materials to extend and enhance historic stations, but these proposals go *far* beyond that.

Look at St Pancras again. Not only was the trainshed extension deliberately low-key to avoid distracting from the design and architecture of the Victorian station - it's no squat office block - but the hotel extension, which lies alongside the trainshed and abuts the hotel too, was designed to echo the surrounding Victorian structures.

Midland Road by Geoff Henson, on Flickr

 

[Wolfie]

They can be excellent architecture, but in what world does this count? It's a glass box so uninspiring they've resorted to a laughably unrealistic bright white translucent glow that we all know it won't have.

Neither King's Cross, London Bridge or Blackfriars dumped an office block above their respective concourses - Cannon Street would be a more obvious comparison, as would the aborted plans for Span 4 at Paddington. Need I say more!

Perhaps Charing Cross too.

 

[Chris125]

Worth reading IanVisits review of the consultation which sums up my view pretty well: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/article...e-built-above-liverpool-street-station-60054/

The proposal, as put forward by the developer, is that Liverpool Street station needs an upgrade and that the oversite development is the only way to fund it. However, many of the changes being proposed seem less to do with improving the station than providing structural support for the oversite development, and the headline figure of £450 million worth of upgrades is mostly being spent on the works needed to support the offices, not functional upgrades for the station itself.

It’s undeniable that the station could do with improvements. The exits lack enough escalators and it’s feeling its age these days, but the quantum of upgrades that will fix problems with the station is only a small fraction of the headline figure being spent.

Must admit I didn't realise how much the office block squats on top of the hotel until seeing this, yikes.