UK Rail Passenger Numbers Discussion

[JamesT]

However most people can avoid these high marginal rates by paying additional pension contributions to bring taxable income below 50%. If going to lose big chunk in tax, then all that is effectively a free pension contribution and better to be in your pension pot than 'donated' to the Treasury.

Though as some senior doctors found, putting too much into your pension means you fall foul of the lifetime allowance and end up having to pay a 55% charge.

 

[Ken H]

Though as some senior doctors found, putting too much into your pension means you fall foul of the lifetime allowance and end up having to pay a 55% charge.

Dont have to be that senior. We are losing older GP's cos of this. Part of the GP crisis.
Still, the golf industry is happy.

 

[APT618S]

Though as some senior doctors found, putting too much into your pension means you fall foul of the lifetime allowance and end up having to pay a 55% charge.

Which meant that many doctors chose to retire instead, hence a shortage of doctors.
British Medical Journal:

Budget: Chancellor fails to tackle pension taxes forcing doctors to retire

Doctors and pensions experts have expressed disappointment over Jeremy Hunt’s failure to take any action in his autumn statement this week to mitigate the punitive pension taxes that force many senior doctors into retiring from the NHS. “The chancellor himself recently described the situation...

www.bmj.com

 

[Robert Ambler]

Though as some senior doctors found, putting too much into your pension means you fall foul of the lifetime allowance and end up having to pay a 55% charge.

It is not just senior Doctors and other senior staff getting caught by these provisions. People on quite ordinary salaries who have been working somewhere with a workplace pension scheme for any length of time are finding they are getting close to or are exceeding the lifetime allowance and either getting or risking punitive tax bills. The allowance has not been increased since it was introduced and if you work somewhere with a workplace pension a % of salary is paid into the pension every week/month and there is nothing you can do to stop it. As a result many employees in this position are either leaving, opting to work part time or refusing overtime in order to minimise the penalties. This is not what was intended by this legislation when it was introduced and should be an easy fix by government, but they are choosing to ignore it.

 

[jayah]

Can I ask, is any of this based on actual knowledge, or are you just telling us what you want to happen?

It is based on the laws of addition and subtraction.

 

[43066]

It is based on the laws of addition and subtraction.

So just as I thought, it’s your own views being passed off as fact.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[jayah]

The service continues to run on overtime even with reduced timetables. However, I was more referring to Sunday which if you wanted to stop being run on overtime - something the unions are on board with too - there would be an immediate cost in terms of adding that Sunday pay into the base salary to some extent but you would also need more diagrams to cover the work.

The timetable isn’t even so you can’t just cut to fit everything in as you would like.

Traincrew are already paid to work on Sundays and there are already ways if keeping the costs out of pensionable pay.

Always and everywhere, any additional costs will be paid for by cutting services or rolling stock.

The timetable was never even, if one company is more short of people, they will cut more services, just like what has been going on the past 18 months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

Though as some senior doctors found, putting too much into your pension means you fall foul of the lifetime allowance and end up having to pay a 55% charge.

That is also why most GPs work part time.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is not just senior Doctors and other senior staff getting caught by these provisions. People on quite ordinary salaries who have been working somewhere with a workplace pension scheme for any length of time are finding they are getting close to or are exceeding the lifetime allowance and either getting or risking punitive tax bills. The allowance has not been increased since it was introduced and if you work somewhere with a workplace pension a % of salary is paid into the pension every week/month and there is nothing you can do to stop it. As a result many employees in this position are either leaving, opting to work part time or refusing overtime in order to minimise the penalties. This is not what was intended by this legislation when it was introduced and should be an easy fix by government, but they are choosing to ignore it.

Remember though people in these pension schemes are avoiding being taxed on all their incomes and it was being abused by people who already had plenty of money so it needed a cap putting on it to be fair to those people who don't receive same pension benefits.

 

[jayah]

So just as I thought, it’s your own views being passed off as fact.

Thanks for clarifying.

The railways are paid for by the taxpayer and the fare payer.

The fare payer has been driven away by months of strikes, some of them about things like DOO which has somehow become a 'red line' despite existing for over 40 years now.

The taxpayer is skint, budgets are being cut, the magic money tree has been roped off and there are millions on NHS waiting lists.

The timetable will be cut to fit inside the budget without overtime, overtime the unions and government actually agree they don't want.

You may not want hear that, but there isn't going to be funding for another 5,000 drivers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The railways are paid for by the taxpayer and the fare payer.

The fare payer has been driven away by months of strikes, some of them about things like DOO which has somehow become a 'red line' despite existing for over 40 years now.

The taxpayer is skint, budgets are being cut, the magic money tree has been roped off and there are millions on NHS waiting lists.

The timetable will be cut to fit inside the budget without overtime, overtime the unions and government actually agree they don't want.

You may not want hear that, but there isn't going to be funding for another 5,000 drivers.

Merriman at Transport Select Committee early said a weekday strike day cost c25m and c15m at weekends and admitted they've lost more money than it would have cost for the pay rise already

 

[jayah]

Remember though people in these pension schemes are avoiding being taxed on all their incomes and it was being abused by people who already had plenty of money so it needed a cap putting on it to be fair to those people who don't receive same pension benefits.

It always sounds like a good idea to punish people for having more money, but when your medical graduates go to work in Australia, GPs work part time and there is no tax revenue because economic growth is near zero and wealth creation is being driven away, you have to ask if really is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

Merriman at Transport Select Committee early said a weekday strike day cost c25m and c15m at weekends and admitted they've lost more money than it would have cost for the pay rise already

Has Merriman had to mortgage one of his houses?

Isn't it ironic that the only people who aren't actually losing money are the ones at the table, negotiating about when this ends?

 

[HSTEd]

Merriman at Transport Select Committee early said a weekday strike day cost c25m and c15m at weekends and admitted they've lost more money than it would have cost for the pay rise already

He also pointed out that is an extremely narrow view that ignores the likely savings from future changes in working practices.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

He also pointed out that is an extremely narrow view that ignores the likely savings from future changes in working practices.

The savings are going to have to be pretty revolutionary to save that money and that will probably just provoke more industrial action. Had they offered them 5% back in February they probably would have got it accepted and saved all this pain.

 

[JonathanH]

Had they offered them 5% back in February they probably would have got it accepted and saved all this pain.

Deferred it to 2023 I expect.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Deferred it to 2023 I expect.

probably but at least they could have started from stability with a much clearer view about what level of passenger revenue was realisable in the post covid world.

 

[Facing Back]

Merriman at Transport Select Committee early said a weekday strike day cost c25m and c15m at weekends and admitted they've lost more money than it would have cost for the pay rise already

Cost for the pay rise for how long? Apologies, I haven't seen the broadcast yet. The losses are one off per strike day whereas the costs of the pay rise are incurred year on year for ever.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

He also pointed out that is an extremely narrow view that ignores the likely savings from future changes in working practices.

Surely the DfT has a forecast model on these potential savings from changes they would like but are not included in the offer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

probably but at least they could have started from stability with a much clearer view about what level of passenger revenue was realisable in the post covid world.

I have a feeling that by this point, an increase in revenue will not equate to a larger increase to salary - the government has too much skin in the game. It might lead to an increase in headcount.

 

[Bald Rick]

The savings are going to have to be pretty revolutionary to save that money and that will probably just provoke more industrial action. Had they offered them 5% back in February they probably would have got it accepted and saved all this pain.

the strikes have clearly cost more than the savings available from the changes proposed in one year.

But the savings proposed (indeed now happening at NR) will repay that in just a few years.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

the strikes have clearly cost more than the savings available from the changes proposed in one year.

But the savings proposed (indeed now happening at NR) will repay that in just a few years.

of course but Merriman said he wanted DOO but still wants a second person on the train customer facing so that isn't going to materially change the cost base. Even on ticket offices he talked of people being redeployed maybe he was choosing his words carefully to avoid being provocative at the moment but if they are used for revenue protection might help.
The one thing that does seem to be a real winner is for management to be able to management and i guess this maybe about cutting through a lot of the historical T&Cs where numerous examples are shared across this forum whereby efficient use of staff isn't currently possible ie operators setting rosters without staff reps deciding whether they will agree them or not.

Im am pleased that to hear NR continues to do its bit and i hope there is a balance between train service cutbacks and NR expenditure especially that without contractual implications.

 

[Bald Rick]

of course but Merriman said he wanted DOO but still wants a second person on the train customer facing so that isn't going to materially change the cost base. Even on ticket offices he talked of people being redeployed maybe he was choosing his words carefully to avoid being provocative at the moment but if they are used for revenue protection might help.

remember this is about subsidy reduction, not just cost saving.

 

[HSTEd]

The savings are going to have to be pretty revolutionary to save that money and that will probably just provoke more industrial action. Had they offered them 5% back in February they probably would have got it accepted and saved all this pain.

Well the pay for literally thousands of staff will be quite a lot.....

Something like 6,000 train guards and once you include full cost of employment that will be hundreds of millions of pounds per year for the rest of time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

of course but Merriman said he wanted DOO but still wants a second person on the train customer facing so that isn't going to materially change the cost base.

Has he actually said that he still wants a second member of staff, the Graun makes no mention of this. Additionally, once the operational control inherent in the Train guard position is gone the second person becomes far easier to get rid of later.

Even if no redundancies occur attrition will eliminate them as a significant cost in a handful of years.

The end state desired by the government is almost certainly single-staff train crews.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well the pay for literally thousands of staff will be quite a lot.....

Something like 6,000 train guards and once you include full cost of employment that will be hundreds of millions of pounds per year for the rest of time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==


Has he actually said that he still wants a second member of staff, the Graun makes no mention of this. Additionally, once the operational control inherent in the Train guard position is gone the second person becomes far easier to get rid of later.

At 10.06 he said "Im absolutely committed to having a second member of staff onboard"

goes on to say that member of staff will be able to walk through the train checking tickets.

Even if no redundancies occur attrition will eliminate them as a significant cost in a handful of years.

The end state desired by the government is almost certainly single-staff train crews.

Thats my point if it isn't your not going to save serious amounts of money. Personally having travelled on DOO Thameslink trains for over 30 years im quite happy with DOO and now my line has finally gone self despatch all the way from Redhill time keeping has further improved. That said revenue protection on Thameslink is all but non existent had my ticket checked onboard once over the last two years

 

[greyman42]

Remember though people in these pension schemes are avoiding being taxed on all their incomes and it was being abused by people who already had plenty of money so it needed a cap putting on it to be fair to those people who don't receive same pension benefits.

How are they avoiding being taxed on all their incomes?

 

[Bikeman78]

The better option is Elizabeth line, doesn't it work?

Hadn't opened last year on the day in question.

 

[jayah]

He also pointed out that is an extremely narrow view that ignores the likely savings from future changes in working practices.

Not to mention the effect of 19% pay rises on the other 98% of the public sector payroll.

Let's offer the train drivers another few % while hoping teachers don't vote for strike action!

 

[Class 170101]

Headcount is well under 40,000 now, most of the reduction is in management grades.

How many people volunteered for redundancy (VS) but didn't get it I wonder.

remember this is about subsidy reduction, not just cost saving.

Increase the revenue and get people back on trains then you would need less subsidy.

 

[Bald Rick]

How many people volunteered for redundancy (VS) but didn't get it I wonder.

Very few in the management grades. There have been a number of compulsory redundancies too.

Increase the revenue and get people back on trains then you would need less subsidy.

If only someone had thought of that

 

[Class 170101]

Very few in the management grades. There have been a number of compulsory redundancies too.

If only someone had thought of that

Oh I imagine someone has but somehow I doubt its a politician.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh I imagine someone has but somehow I doubt it’s a politician.

to be fair, the politicians have been specifically asking about this.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

How are they avoiding being taxed on all their incomes?

What you pay into a pension scheme isn't subject to tax

 

[Hadders]

What you pay into a pension scheme isn't subject to tax

But you are taxed when you take it out (although 25% can normally be taken tax free)