Grand Central - Blackpool to London Services / Other OA plans

[Masbroughlad]

I can fully understand why GC pulled the plug on their proposed Blackpool to London OA services, given the closedown of the country and then drastic decrease in travel due to the pandemic. I just wondered what happened to the access rights they had? Was it not worth looking at re-instating the plans, now that life is returning to normality (slowly). The stock has gone elsewhere, but sure there could be other options.

Are the paths still available? Could GC sell them to another operator? It was obviously deemed very viable at the time, as it had got ready to run the trains. I am sure it must have cost them millions for no return.

As an addition to this thread - are Alliance Rail / GC actively pursuing any other OA plans? Indeed, apart from Grand Union's Wales to London proposals, are there any other budding entrants to the market? Again, pre-pandemic, I know Hull Trains had hinted at other destinations from Hull, other than London, but assume this aspiration also bit the dust!

Anybody shed light on any of the above, please?

 

[The Planner]

I can fully understand why GC pulled the plug on their proposed Blackpool to London OA services, given the closedown of the country and then drastic decrease in travel due to the pandemic. I just wondered what happened to the access rights they had? Was it not worth looking at re-instating the plans, now that life is returning to normality (slowly). The stock has gone elsewhere, but sure there could be other options.

Are the paths still available? Could GC sell them to another operator? It was obviously deemed very viable at the time, as it had got ready to run the trains. I am sure it must have cost them millions for no return.

As an addition to this thread - are Alliance Rail / GC actively pursuing any other OA plans? Indeed, apart from Grand Union's Wales to London proposals, are there any other budding entrants to the market? Again, pre-pandemic, I know Hull Trains had hinted at other destinations from Hull, other than London, but assume this aspiration also bit the dust!

Anybody shed light on any of the above, please?

Grand Unions plan to run Euston to Stirling have effectively got those paths already.

 

[mike57]

I have no inside knowledge, but judging by Hull Trains publicity and looking at their operation they are concentrating on the Hull - London route and connected places. They seem to have found a market, and are reasonably successful. I cant see them looking to expand, at one time there were rumours they might want to re-introduce direct services to London from Grimsby and Cleethorpes, but unless they split trains at Doncaster I cant see that happening.

 

[pdeaves]

are there any other budding entrants to the market

Go-op with their weird and wonderful complex of occasional services around Somerset/Wiltshire. It's notable that they aren't going for a single end-to-end network map. Recruitment adverts have appeared in Swindon in the last month or so.

 

[Steddenm]

At one point First Hull Trains also wanted First Harrogate Trains but nothing came of it.



(Image shows the First Harrogate Trains logo)

 

[Ashley Hill]

Go-op with their weird and wonderful complex of occasional services around Somerset/Wiltshire. It's notable that they aren't going for a single end-to-end network map. Recruitment adverts have appeared in Swindon in the last month or so.

I’m surprised they’ve not tried for trains to Radstock.

 

[adamedwards]

I think a fab route for an open access service would be the East Midlands to Manchester: Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham - Chesterfield - Hope or Edale - Hazel Grove - Stockport - Manchester.

Edale or Hope call is about access to the Peak District. I omit Sheffield to ensure the journey times are faster and so EMR could not complain about the competition. An extension south to Bedford is probably adding too much complexity.

Operation Rio proved there was demand for this several years ago.

Stock might need to be cascaded 221s or 222s to keep costs down.

 

[zwk500]

I think a fab route for an open access service would be the East Midlands to Manchester: Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham - Chesterfield - Hope or Edale - Hazel Grove - Stockport - Manchester.

Edale or Hope call is about access to the Peak District. I omit Sheffield to ensure the journey times are faster and so EMR could not complain about the competition. An extension south to Bedford is probably adding too much complexity.

Skipping sheffield is missing out on a lot of revenue, and Peak District walkers are not going to keep an OAO afloat, even if you could find paths for this.

Operation Rio proved there was demand for this several years ago.

Did it? From anecdotal accounts I've seen on here those trains were largely empty, and even then that's with the London-Manchester traffic on them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Skipping sheffield is missing out on a lot of revenue, and Peak District walkers are not going to keep an OAO afloat, even if you could find paths for this.

Did it? From anecdotal accounts I've seen on here those trains were largely empty, and even then that's with the London-Manchester traffic on them.

Skipping sheffield is missing out on a lot of revenue, and Peak District walkers are not going to keep an OAO afloat, even if you could find paths for this.

Did it? From anecdotal accounts I've seen on here those trains were largely empty, and even then that's with the London-Manchester traffic on them.

When "Rio" was operating , a careful note was taken of direct MML to Manchester revenue - which was construed as non London origin. It really was not enough to justify a stand alone service , staring (were it possible) from say Leicester.

On reflection , "Rio" was only worthwhile on certain weekends when it did earn it's keep. Regrettably , it carried a lot of fresh air.

 

[43096]

I think a fab route for an open access service would be the East Midlands to Manchester: Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham - Chesterfield - Hope or Edale - Hazel Grove - Stockport - Manchester.

"I think" presumably meaning "I've got no evidence". To be successful, an open access operator really needs to serve London and serve somewhere with a decent market size.

Operation Rio proved there was demand for this several years ago.

Project Rio proved nothing of the sort. Whenever I used it (and I used it fairly regularly), the train was pretty empty north of Leicester.

 

[Bald Rick]

Operation Rio proved there was demand for this several years ago.

It proved quite the opposite!

 

[pdeaves]

It proved quite the opposite!

It was simply a 'diversion route', albeit with another operator, whilst bits of the West Coast line were shut. If I remember correctly it did not call at any intermediate stations (happy to be corrected). When I rode the route I can't say it was really worth anyone's effort. It was a nice idea but, in missing all (not just a few of) the places normally served, passengers had no cause to travel on it.

 

[Lampshade]

It was simply a 'diversion route', albeit with another operator, whilst bits of the West Coast line were shut. If I remember correctly it did not call at any intermediate stations (happy to be corrected). When I rode the route I can't say it was really worth anyone's effort. It was a nice idea but, in missing all (not just a few of) the places normally served, passengers had no cause to travel on it.

St Pancras, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.

Number of passengers per train (not carriage) sometimes in single figures between Leicester and Manchester.

 

[popeter45]

I feel one market thats missing services that a OA could slot into is North and South Wales to Scotland routes
Think Swansea/Holyhead to Glasgow/Edinbugh

 

[JonathanH]

I feel one market thats missing services that a OA could slot into is North and South Wales to Scotland routes
Think Swansea/Holyhead to Glasgow/Edinbugh

There is more revenue on offer running the trains on those two routes to Manchester, rather than avoiding it.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I can fully understand why GC pulled the plug on their proposed Blackpool to London OA services, given the closedown of the country and then drastic decrease in travel due to the pandemic. I just wondered what happened to the access rights they had? Was it not worth looking at re-instating the plans, now that life is returning to normality (slowly). The stock has gone elsewhere, but sure there could be other options.

Are the paths still available? Could GC sell them to another operator? It was obviously deemed very viable at the time, as it had got ready to run the trains. I am sure it must have cost them millions for no return.

As an addition to this thread - are Alliance Rail / GC actively pursuing any other OA plans? Indeed, apart from Grand Union's Wales to London proposals, are there any other budding entrants to the market? Again, pre-pandemic, I know Hull Trains had hinted at other destinations from Hull, other than London, but assume this aspiration also bit the dust!

Anybody shed light on any of the above, please?

You are not allowed to trade passenger access rights so you can’t “sell paths”. If you don’t use them, you lose them. A new applicant has to go through the whole application process again.

Neither HT nor GC are looking at new destinations at the moment.

 

[Mugby]

Ironically, a GC Blackpool - Preston - London service would be hugely popular right now given the dire state of Avanti's operations!

 

[dk1]

I used the ‘Rio’ services on several occasions & each time was so so surprised at how quiet they were. Good idea but that was about it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I used the ‘Rio’ services on several occasions & each time was so so surprised at how quiet they were. Good idea but that was about it.

I used Rio once, from Derby to Manchester. It was pretty quiet, but in its defence the services weren't particularly well advertised. I had friends at universities in Manchester who had no idea they could get a direct train home to Leicester.

If you ran them now, you'd probably use a 4/5-car 222 type unit rather than a 7-coach HST, and the numbers would probably be a bit healthier.

 

[WAB]

I used Rio once, from Derby to Manchester. It was pretty quiet, but in its defence the services weren't particularly well advertised. I had friends at universities in Manchester who had no idea they could get a direct train home to Leicester.

If you ran them now, you'd probably use a 4/5-car 222 type unit rather than a 7-coach HST, and the numbers would probably be a bit healthier.

And the widespread use of journey planners and journey planner-based online ticketing, more people would be aware of the direct trains just by typing in their origin and destination.

 

[dk1]

I used Rio once, from Derby to Manchester. It was pretty quiet, but in its defence the services weren't particularly well advertised. I had friends at universities in Manchester who had no idea they could get a direct train home to Leicester.

If you ran them now, you'd probably use a 4/5-car 222 type unit rather than a 7-coach HST, and the numbers would probably be a bit healthier.

Yes I imagine they’d be busier but not sure enough to make them commercially successful. Many Rio services were in the paths of stopping trains south of Derby that made them less attractive for London passengers.

 

[Senex]

Yes I imagine they’d be busier but not sure enough to make them commercially successful. Many Rio services were in the paths of stopping trains south of Derby that made them less attractive for London passengers.

Not only stoppers south of Leicester but with very poor paths north thereof, so London-Manchester journey-times were decidely unattractive and a journey could feel never-ending with its string of stops and periods of slow running — pretty terious even for those of us just making the journey to enjoy the route in the comfort of an HST. If it had been possible to get clean paths and run fast south of Leicester, then a really attractive competitive service might have been possible. I wonder if BR InterCity Sector could have managed something better.

 

[43096]

Yes I imagine they’d be busier but not sure enough to make them commercially successful. Many Rio services were in the paths of stopping trains south of Derby that made them less attractive for London passengers.

The Rio service picked up the paths and stops of the Nottingham slow service south of Leicester (connection for Nottingham at Leicester). North of Leicester it normally ran non-stop to either Stockport or Manchester (if Stockport shut) via the Erewash and Dore South curve. It did run via Derby occasionally, particularly with weekend engineering work.

Anyone wanting to see the route, the 125 Group have a cab ride DVD from Leicester to Manchester: https://www.125group.org.uk/product/midland-to-manchester-dvd/

 

[pdeaves]

I wonder if BR InterCity Sector could have managed something better.

Possibly, possibly not. It must be borne in mind that Rio was a short term thing to help out somewhere else, never intended to be a permanent feature of the network. If it was supposed to stay 'forever', there may have been a different view on how to make it work.

 

[cle]

I'm always surprised that there was no demand from Leicester and Derby to Stockport/Manchester. Yes it didn't work 20 years ago (no-one knew about it, it felt rail replacement vs new service - St P was a ghost town etc) - but many things which didn't work for various reasons might succeed under other conditions and management.

Worth considering how Manchester has grown and evolved in this time too. Also how Watford doesn't have a service when it did back then (i.e. could a Luton/AP call attract more folks from Herts?)

And if it was permanent. Many students might find it appealing, as well as budget travellers (per other competition - see Chiltern to Brum)

 

[zwk500]

I'm always surprised that there was no demand from Leicester and Derby to Stockport/Manchester. Yes it didn't work 20 years ago (no-one knew about it, it felt rail replacement vs new service - St P was a ghost town etc) - but many things which didn't work for various reasons might succeed under other conditions and management.

Worth considering how Manchester has grown and evolved in this time too. Also how Watford doesn't have a service when it did back then (i.e. could a Luton/AP call attract more folks from Herts?)

And if it was permanent. Many students might find it appealing, as well as budget travellers (per other competition - see Chiltern to Brum)

Megabus will be difficult to compete with on that distance, timeframe and price.

 

[dk1]

In the early days of the new ‘Express’ network a peak time service ran between Nottingham & Manchester via Derby/Dore curve (avoiding Sheffield) returning in the late afternoon. It didn’t last for many timetables. Wasn’t there also a 1980s sprinter service between Bedford & Manchester too?

 

[cle]

In the early days of the new ‘Express’ network a peak time service ran between Nottingham & Manchester via Derby/Dore curve (avoiding Sheffield) returning in the late afternoon. It didn’t last for many timetables. Wasn’t there also a 1980s sprinter service between Bedford & Manchester too?

Worth noting that Bedford will (if it gets the full rebuild) be a bigger junction, with EWR services and likely more EMR calls in the medium to long terms. Might it be a quicker route from Cambridge to Manchester? Esp given Bletchley vs MKC.

And a Bedford-Leeds was touted, but that could be done through a Sheffield call and extension, and Manchester is more useful.

 

[dk1]

Worth noting that Bedford will (if it gets the full rebuild) be a bigger junction, with EWR services and likely more EMR calls in the medium to long terms. Might it be a quicker route from Cambridge to Manchester? Esp given Bletchley vs MKC.

And a Bedford-Leeds was touted, but that could be done through a Sheffield call and extension, and Manchester is more useful.

When you say Bedford-Leeds where you thinking of the more regular extension to the St.Pancras-Nottingham services refused in favour of the now Northern service?

 

[cle]

When you say Bedford-Leeds where you thinking of the more regular extension to the St.Pancras-Nottingham services refused in favour of the now Northern service?

There was a post-East Midlands Parkway / HS2 plan (when Toton/Leeds was killed) - which had a Bedford starter to Leeds. Routing unclear.

Similarly, the ECML in a future (probably never) state had a Cambridge-Leeds service pegged.