DustyBin
Established Member
That’s possible of course. If only they knew the truth……
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Russia invades Ukraine
- Thread starter kristiang85
- Start date
That’s possible of course. If only they knew the truth……
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R
RailUK Forums
Hmm, must have run out of cruise missiles and drones and be waiting for the next shipments to arrive on Sunday.
brad465
Veteran Member
If I was Ukraine I'd be on high alert regardless, Russia has form for not honouring agreements.
gingerheid
Established Member
- Joined
- 2 Apr 2006
- Messages
- 1,725
I'm sure they will be, though this one might be more likely to stick than usual as it's a chance to project the R*ssian version of the date of Christmas.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Ukraine has apparently rejected a ceasefire.
Pete_uk
On Moderation
Good for them.
I see lots more vehicles heading into the country. Tanks and all.
I see lots more vehicles heading into the country. Tanks and all.
brad465
Veteran Member
We look set to send Challenger 2 Tanks to Ukraine (believed to be a dozen's worth), with a hope other allies will send tanks of their own:
www.bbc.co.uk
If all key allies follow suit, this would prove that military support for Ukraine is far from being in danger of subsiding.
UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms
Rishi Sunak confirms the tanks will be provided during a call with President Zelensky.
www.bbc.co.uk
If all key allies follow suit, this would prove that military support for Ukraine is far from being in danger of subsiding.
We look set to send Challenger 2 Tanks to Ukraine (believed to be a dozen's worth), with a hope other allies will send tanks of their own:
UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms
Rishi Sunak confirms the tanks will be provided during a call with President Zelensky.
If all key allies follow suit, this would prove that military support for Ukraine is far from being in danger of subsiding.
A good move by the PM, fair play to him.
Hopefully our allies will follow.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Probably symbolic more than anything if it's only a dozen. Apparently it uses different ammunition from everything else, so a separate supply chain will be needed for a very small number of vehicles. The Leopard is used by several countries who are likely to be willing to donate, so could build up a substantial force if Germany gives permission for their products to be re-exported.
Yes, I saw that too about the ammunition.
Nevertheless, if it spurs other allies on, all the better.
Though the British Army’s future plans for Challenger 3 involve upgrading to a smoothbore gun like other NATO countries so our stocks of ammunition will become obsolete anyway. Might as well let the Ukrainians use it in anger?
If it can be of use in defence of the West and our allies, let it be of use.
Hopefully we will be providing Ukraine with the more modern weaponry in good time anyway.
Killingworth
Established Member
They need spares and servicing expertise too. It takes time to train how to both operate and keep new tanks reliable - although they are no longer new they'll be new to operators in Ukraine. If thrown into battle without it the Russians would enjoy picking them off for propaganda purposes. Possibly training may already be under way on Salisbury Plain and elsewhere.
If it's been announced today then training will have started some weeks/months ago.
Killingworth
Established Member
If rhe move is to be most effective I'd certainly hope so but the Sky News report says "the UK will begin training".
In any case 14 tanks arent enough. The more numerous German made Leopards are what are needed most. Trouble is the numbers of tanks supposedly held by all nations is not the number that are serviceable and immediately deployable by crews fully trained in their effective use. The Russians may have demonstrated that.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If it's only "plans" then, going by other defence projects, it's years if not decades away. We need to keep enough ammo on hand, plus facilities to manufacture more, to cover any contingencies that might arise in the meantime.
Much of what the USA has donated, including HIMARS and now Bradleys, looks to be stuff they are in the course of replacing or just bought more of than they need.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Indeed, the supply chain needs to include maintenance too. Although if that doesn't happen the more likely consequence is more likely that they will disappear from the front and end up as useless hulks somewhere behind the line.
DustyBin
Established Member
I think our donation of Challenger 2s is largely intended to unblock the supply of other more numerous MBTs (which will probably be Leopard 2s as already mentioned). Basically, someone has to be the first to up the ante.
The Challenger 2 will be the best tank on the battlefield without doubt, but it’s not really what Ukraine needs (especially in such small numbers). It uses a unique rifled gun, and is extremely big and heavy; it literally dwarfs a T-72. On a positive note, the gun is very accurate and can fire rounds which are particularly devastating against “soft” targets such as dug-in troops and AFVs. The Challenger 2 is also extremely difficult to kill (and has been well tested over the years). I believe the only kill against one to date was a blue on blue by another Challenger 2, and even that involved some particularly bad luck (the commanders hatch was open at the time).
The Challenger 2 will be the best tank on the battlefield without doubt, but it’s not really what Ukraine needs (especially in such small numbers). It uses a unique rifled gun, and is extremely big and heavy; it literally dwarfs a T-72. On a positive note, the gun is very accurate and can fire rounds which are particularly devastating against “soft” targets such as dug-in troops and AFVs. The Challenger 2 is also extremely difficult to kill (and has been well tested over the years). I believe the only kill against one to date was a blue on blue by another Challenger 2, and even that involved some particularly bad luck (the commanders hatch was open at the time).
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Annetts key
Established Member
Even if there are supply chain difficulties for the Challenger 2, they can still be used by Ukraine to free up other tanks from defending part of the border with Belarus.
And regardless, the U.K. publicly announcing this both sends a clear message to Putin and to the other countries that claim to support Ukraine. So hopefully this will persuade those countries with Leopard 2 MBTs to provide a good number to Ukraine and for Germany to allow this.
And regardless, the U.K. publicly announcing this both sends a clear message to Putin and to the other countries that claim to support Ukraine. So hopefully this will persuade those countries with Leopard 2 MBTs to provide a good number to Ukraine and for Germany to allow this.
Pete_uk
On Moderation
Switzerland seems to be blocking some hardware from Spain from being donated.
brad465
Veteran Member
Someone needs to stand up to Switzerland and their "neutral" status and tell them this quote from the late Desmond Tutu:
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
They're not part of NATO, so I don't see how they can block Spain from donating anything - unless said hardware is on their territory for some reason.
Killingworth
Established Member
Manufactured in Switzerland and sold to Spain with conditions restricting reselling?
Maybe. It would seem strange for them to put a restriction on providing it to a European country repelling an invasion.
Killingworth
Established Member
Guardian piece today says "German battle tanks for Ukraine ‘won’t be ready until 2024" See; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/15/german-battle-tanks-for-ukraine-wont-be-ready-until-2024
This rather backs up my fear that the western allies may have tanks in apparent quantity (although nothing like as many as Russia) but a large proportion are not immediately available for active service. Many are stored away awaiting spare parts, often cannibalised from other tanks meaning some will never be deployable.
Wasn't that an issue we discovered at the outset of the last Gulf War?
This rather backs up my fear that the western allies may have tanks in apparent quantity (although nothing like as many as Russia) but a large proportion are not immediately available for active service. Many are stored away awaiting spare parts, often cannibalised from other tanks meaning some will never be deployable.
Wasn't that an issue we discovered at the outset of the last Gulf War?
Any details available?
This I imagine, seems they are Swiss manufactured.
Switzerland ‘blocks weapons exports’ from Spain to Ukraine
Spanish Defence Minister, Margarita Robles, says Switzerland is refusing to allow the country to re-export war materiel to Ukraine.
www.swissinfo.ch
Peterthegreat
Established Member
If the Swiss are "neutral" why are they selling weapons to Spain in the first place?This I imagine, seems they are Swiss manufactured.
Switzerland ‘blocks weapons exports’ from Spain to Ukraine
Spanish Defence Minister, Margarita Robles, says Switzerland is refusing to allow the country to re-export war materiel to Ukraine.
The Swiss are a fairly major player in international arms, something like 14th in the world.
Killingworth
Established Member
Air Defence, the name Oerliken is familiar to those who have read about WW2. Rheinmetall is the subsidiary producing air defence systems today, see; https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/...ms_and_products/air_defence_systems/index.php
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