Doubling back at Gatwick off the Express from Victoria

[Kilopylae]

Thanks, that’s useful to know. So if someone whose journey started on the Underground wants it breaking to take advantage of a NR Only discount to say, East Croydon then that gateline can be used.

Is an NR Priv-discounted Gatwick Express fare plus an LU single really cheaper than the through fare?

 

[Minstral25]

This is not quite true, the use of the word often is dubious.

There are 5 planned departures and 2 arrivals of trains from Gatwick into Platforms 13/14 Mon-Fri.
Of these only 3 departures and 1 arrival that call at Redhill.
All of these trains need to use SL in one Direction and FL in the other so can only use platforms 12-15 and at the times they are at Victoria platforms 12 & 15 are booked to be used by other services. The only Reigate services using P13/14 are the 16:38/17:38 departures.

Reigate services often use platform 12 or 19

2 trains a day every day booked to Reigate is often enough not to be dubious. They are also both busy Peak services which are often heavily loaded (as per Southern Timetable tool).

Also other services to Reigate are leaving from platforms 13/14 after being re-platformed. The original journey I commented on was a re-platform as it was the 18:08 service to Reigate which is currently scheduled in platform 19.

 

[akm]

Is an NR Priv-discounted Gatwick Express fare plus an LU single really cheaper than the through fare?

To most destinations, the from-regular-Victoria and from-Victoria-GX fares are the same. East Croydon (the destination we're talking about here) is one of this majority.

 

[MikeWh]

To most destinations, the from-regular-Victoria and from-Victoria-GX fares are the same. East Croydon (the destination we're talking about here) is one of this majority.

Indeed. The only destinations which are different are those between Redhill and Gatwick Airport inclusive.

 

[JonathanH]

To most destinations, the from-regular-Victoria and from-Victoria-GX fares are the same. East Croydon (the destination we're talking about here) is one of this majority.

That is true but the lack of an OSI on platforms 13 and 14 can still lead to a higher cost being charged for journeys via Victoria.

 

[etr221]

Take London Overground from Clapham to West Brompton, tap the pink reader, then take the District line to Victoria and the Victoria line to Highbury n Islington….no zone 1 charge.

I suppose the system can’t work out that you MUST have used zone 1 by examining the touch in and out times, on the basis that it’s impossible to do a journey without using zone 1 in the time taken.

The system isn't that smart; it isn't based on timetabled, or actual, running of services. The maximum journey times are of course influenced by how long journeys typically take, but they are very broad-brush (as they are based on the number of zones deemed to be passed through).

It would be theoretically possible to have a minimum journey time. For example West Brompton to Highbury is always charged as Zone 2 only because touching the pink readers does not prove the route you use.

But if you do the journey in less time than the fastest possible time that an Overground train could take, it could be possible to program the system to charge you a Z1-2 fare. Of course you could go via Zone 1 and deliberately loiter somewhere to extend your journey time, and that could not be detected with the current system.

Similarly if you do something like Fulham Broadway to Highbury you could hop off the train and tap the pink reader at West Brompton then get back on, I have seen people do this, then go via Zone 1. If the time between pink reader taps (or between pink and yellow) is shorter than the minimum possible using the cheaper route, the higher fare could be charged.

I wonder if TfL has considered this and decided that preventing this sort of short-faring is not worth the extra costs, or perhaps (in the past when they were not strapped for cash) someone decided that if you're willing to go out of your way to touch pink readers then you can just have the lower fare.

The default assumed route for Clapham (Jn) to Highbury & I is via Zone 2 (only), on the basis of their being direct LO trains (West-North London Line), with no opportunity to touch in en route.
There are alternative routes 'via Zone 1' if you make an OSI at from NR to LU at Vauxhall, Victoria, etc.; but pink reader touching at West Brompton doesn't trigger these (and so is irrelevant).

 

[zero]

The default assumed route for Clapham (Jn) to Highbury & I is via Zone 2 (only), on the basis of their being direct LO trains (West-North London Line), with no opportunity to touch in en route.
There are alternative routes 'via Zone 1' if you make an OSI at from NR to LU at Vauxhall, Victoria, etc.; but pink reader touching at West Brompton doesn't trigger these (and so is irrelevant).

The point was: travelling from CLJ, you can change to the District at West Brompton and take the Victoria line via Zone 1, to arrive at HHY more quickly. Using purely the locations of your touches, TfL cannot differentiate between the direct LO or the above route via Zone 1.

But in theory a "minimum journey time" for the Zone 2 only fare could be implemented, using the times of touches, in order to charge the higher Zone 1-2 fare for faster journeys.

 

[etr221]

The point was: travelling from CLJ, you can change to the District at West Brompton and take the Victoria line via Zone 1, to arrive at HHY more quickly. Using purely the locations of your touches, TfL cannot differentiate between the direct LO or the above route via Zone 1.

But in theory a "minimum journey time" for the Zone 2 only fare could be implemented, using the times of touches, in order to charge the higher Zone 1-2 fare for faster journeys.

Yes, but try explaining that in the fare finder (so that it's understood - especially when you have to allow for disruption!)

This is all down to a clash in paradigms: the normal paradigm is based on fares being for a pre-selected route (which requires a ticket specifying it); PAYG is based around fares being from one station to another (without really caring how you get there). When you start trying to combine the two, you start tying yourself in knots...

 

[AlbertBeale]

You are indeed correct - when it was introduced I understood it was one fare for all the stations but didn't realise it wasn't one fare for travel elsewhere from each station. You learn something new every day.

The point of platforms 13-14 is Southern Reigate services are programmed from those platforms.



Gatwick Express is capable as a Driver Only operation as far as I am aware, although they may have OBS on the trains.

I try not to travel between Victoria and Gatwick on GatEX but I cannot recall any "OBS/Guard" announcements or staff on trains when travelling between Gatwick and Brighton, which I do 2-3 times a month, which of course may be just the journeys I have done.

A couple of times last year I got a GX-branded London-bound train at Brighton in the evening, and in both cases there was an announcement about (alleged) ticket validity, and a ticket check before Gatwick. My Brighton-Thameslink [ie to a T/Link station destination, not a ticket specifying the use of T/Link services to London] was accepted without question each time, on the basis/assumption that I was changing at Gatwick to a different London-bound train, not continuing-to Victoria, and there were no (alleged) brand restrictions on my ticket, though it was at the same cheaper London-Brighton price as tickets with that alleged brand restriction. (In fact, my change at Gatwick was to another Victoria-bound train, but one stopping at Clapham Junction so I could change for Waterloo - my intended London Terminal destination - where I exited on the basis I was on a valid route to London Bridge via Waterloo East, for onward travel to a Thameslink Core station; I was of course able to stop short at Waterloo.)

 

[gabrielhj07]

This morning I travelled from London Victoria to Horley via the Gatwick Express. I used an Oyster Card with railcard discount.

Times and fares were as below




I shall do the reverse journey on Southern to compare prices.

 

[yorkie]

This morning I travelled from London Victoria to Horley via the Gatwick Express. I used an Oyster Card with railcard discount.

Times and fares were as below

View attachment 126727

I would contact GTR and ask them why the fare to Horley is so expensive; assuming you took the fastest itinerary at the time (itineraries involving the 1116 or 1135 departures from Victoria both go via Gatwick), you should not be being charged a premium fare simply to take the fastest route.

Ask for a refund of the difference in fares, and ask why a premium is now being charged, when no premium was previously charged.

I shall do the reverse journey on Southern to compare prices.

If the Southern branded train arives into platforms 13/14 the price charged will be the same; if it arrives into any other platform, you will be charged the regular fare.

Again if charged the premium fare, ask for a refund of the difference and an explanation.

The regular fare with a Railcard discount is £4.60 (off peak).

If you are not satisfied with GTR's response, I would escalate the matter to London Travelwatch and your MP.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I would contact GTR and ask them why the fare to Horley is so expensive; assuming you took the fastest itinerary at the time (itineraries involving the 1116 or 1135 departures from Victoria both go via Gatwick), you should not be being charged a premium fare simply to take the fastest route.

I used the 1129 Gatwick Express departure from Victoria. I will use Southern (on Thursday I imagine) to compare.

 

[Haywain]

I would contact GTR and ask them why the fare to Horley is so expensive;

I would use a different gateline at Victoria. I can't understand the desire to be knowingly overcharged.

 

[Benjwri]

I would use a different gateline at Victoria. I can't understand the desire to be knowingly overcharged.

Trying to use another gateline when actually getting on the GatEx is just a recipe for trouble, I have no doubt the staff will get very agitated, call over an RPI, and you'll probably end up with a PFN or even getting reported for prosecution, as regardless of whether the different fares are allowed, pending the lawsuit, under the current rules that is trying to evade the fare.

 

[Haywain]

Trying to use another gateline when actually getting on the GatEx is just a recipe for trouble, I have no doubt the staff will get very agitated, call over an RPI, and you'll probably end up with a PFN or even getting reported for prosecution, as regardless of whether the different fares are allowed, pending the lawsuit, under the current rules that is trying to evade the fare.

That's a fair point but it still looks like using GatEx is going out of the way to encounter problems.

 

[Benjwri]

That's a fair point but it still looks like using GatEx is going out of the way to encounter problems.

Using GatEx is most definitely being discouraged by this, and I agree it is a way to cause problems. But the problem of being charged more than you should be is a vastly different problem to being reported for prosecution.

 

[RJ]

TfL's Single Fare Finder makes it clear that the National Railcard fare is £13.60 if the Gatwick Express is used.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I did see this notice at Victoria, which I haven’t seen before.

 

[WizCastro197]

I did see this notice at Victoria, which I haven’t seen before.

It’s been there for years…

 

[gabrielhj07]

It’s been there for years…

I didn’t know that, thanks.

 

[WizCastro197]

I didn’t know that, thanks.

No worries, I think they way I wrote it suggested the tone was rather condescending but it wasn’t.

Yes, it’s been there for a while probably after the Gatwick Express rebrand was completed.

 

[MikeWh]

Do we know if there's similar signage the other way round for people arriving on a Southern service?

 

[Watershed]

That's a fair point but it still looks like using GatEx is going out of the way to encounter problems.

Is it 'going out of your way to encounter problems' to want to travel using the fastest journey opportunity?

Any problems here are caused entirely by the intransigence of the industry.

 

[WizCastro197]

Do we know if there's similar signage the other way round for people arriving on a Southern service?

Yes there is similar signage directing passengers to the other gateline on the exit side of things.

 

[RJ]

Is it 'going out of your way to encounter problems' to want to travel using the fastest journey opportunity?

Any problems here are caused entirely by the intransigence of the industry.

I don't really get what the problem is. It's advertised that using the Gatwick Express carries a premium in the Single Fare Finder which is the official source for checking Oyster fares.

If the issue is that use of the Gatwick Express carries a premium, the fare is advertised beforehand so there's a choice to take it or leave it - there are alternative trains that can be used.

I've also checked National Rail Enquires and it only recommends direct trains or changes at East Croydon. If you put Gatwick as a via point, it says two tickets are required so doesn't appear to offer an Oyster fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2023 ==

This morning I travelled from London Victoria to Horley via the Gatwick Express. I used an Oyster Card with railcard discount.

Times and fares were as below

View attachment 126727


I shall do the reverse journey on Southern to compare prices.

To debunk any mystery, you get charged the premium for Gatwick Express if you touch in or out at the platform 13/14 gateline at Victoria. If you use any of the Southern or Southeastern gatelines you don't get charged the premium, regardless of which train you've taken.

 

[yorkie]

I don't really get what the problem is. It's advertised that using the Gatwick Express carries a premium in the Single Fare Finder which is the official source for checking Oyster fares.

If there was no problem with GTR's pricing, the legal case wouldn't have gained class certification and there wouldn't be a trial taking place later this year...

Although the outcome isn't known yet, if there was no merit in the complaints, it would have been thrown out a long time ago (indeed if it was completely baseless it would never have got funding).

If the issue is that use of the Gatwick Express carries a premium, the fare is advertised beforehand so there's a choice to take it or leave it - there are alternative trains that can be used.

I've also checked National Rail Enquires and it only recommends direct trains or changes at East Croydon. If you put Gatwick as a via point, it says two tickets are required so doesn't appear to offer an Oyster fare.

This is a good reason not to use NRE; FastJP.com will consistently show the fastest itineraries and one of the main concepts of using PAYG is that you can simply tap in and out without having to purchase tickets (whether that is one or two).

 

[gabrielhj07]

To debunk any mystery, you get charged the premium for Gatwick Express if you touch in or out at the platform 13/14 gateline at Victoria. If you use any of the Southern or Southeastern gatelines you don't get charged the premium, regardless of which train you've taken.

I understand, I wanted to try this for myself.

 

[busestrains]

So to clarify does the P13/P14 gateline now charge full Gatwick Express fares for anyone who touches in or out at this gateline regardless of where you are travelling to or from? So for example if you were travelling to or from Battersea Park or Clapham Junction on a train that used P13/P14 will it charge you full Gatwick Express fare for using this gateline? Or is it just, Gatwick Airport, Horley, Salfords, Earlswood, Redhill, passengers that would pay full fare?

 

[RJ]

So to clarify does the P13/P14 gateline now charge full Gatwick Express fares for anyone who touches in or out at this gateline regardless of where you are travelling to or from? So for example if you were travelling to or from Battersea Park or Clapham Junction on a train that used P13/P14 will it charge you full Gatwick Express fare for using this gateline? Or is it just, Gatwick Airport, Horley, Salfords, Earlswood, Redhill, passengers that would pay full fare?

The situation is succinctly summarised by MikeWh in the opening post of this thread. It's only certain stations the premium will be charged.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2023 ==

Is an NR Priv-discounted Gatwick Express fare plus an LU single really cheaper than the through fare?

For the example I've given, yes, as the lack of an OSI makes the fare cheaper.

 

[MikeWh]

Resurrecting this because, GTR have changed their minds again!

From March 5th the via Gatwick Express fares are changing. Redhill will no longer be included so you'll be charged the normal fare even if you double back via Gatwick Express. But, if you do the same for Earslwood, Salfords or Horley you will still be charged the Gatwick Express fare, AND IT WILL NO LONGER BE INCLUDED IN CAPS.

I'm double checking this with my contact at TfL, but that is the picture being painted by the updated single fare finder.