• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,816
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Well you just did!

Indeed, very unusual though.

The reason for the arrangement is that a lot of employees complained about the reliability and customer service of Enterprise, to the point that they'd prefer to use their own car.

My employer allows your own car but just pays the 45p/mile rate which includes a contribution to a higher mileage on your insurance. If you shop around, as an office worker, you can get Business Class 1 for next to nothing. Direct Line used to give it for free by default, don't know if they still do.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
929
Some employers ask employees to minus off their daily car commute (if they have one) from an expenses claim. However there's no actual requirement to do this - business expenses can be paid from home unless you're actually going to the office first, in which case they start at the office.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



That's a bit disingenuous. The Indy is so called because it doesn't have default politics, like e.g. the Mirror is left-wing and trade-unionist or the Torygraph is right wing. The individual correspondents can take the line they see as appropriate.
We do this - the policy is the difference between your actual journey and the journey you would have taken to your normal place of work. When I questioned it as being slightly petty and cheapskate, not to mention costing more to administer than it was worth, I was told by both my HR and finance director colleagues that it was part of our arrangement with HMRC and perfectly normal practice and indeed there is a requirement to do this otherwise there is a benefit in kind for the employee. I confess I haven't looked into it in any detail and certainly don't enforce it.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,351
Location
Bolton
That's a bit disingenuous. The Indy is so called because it doesn't have default politics, like e.g. the Mirror is left-wing and trade-unionist or the Torygraph is right wing. The individual correspondents can take the line they see as appropriate.
Precisely. The Independent are independent of a party or ownership. The name doesn't mean that they're exclusively centrists or neutral. But their columnists are varied, as is typical.
 

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
929
Well you just did!

The reason for the arrangement is that a lot of employees complained about the reliability and customer service of Enterprise, to the point that they'd prefer to use their own car.
To be fair, our policy covers a whole bunch of things relating to travel - medical (sickness, accidents), lost luggage, various IT things, legal costs etc. The car insurance was a tiny piece of it and came as a standard with the policy. Or Avis will drop a car off at your home the night before - surprisingly few people take this up though.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,351
Location
Bolton
To be fair, our policy covers a whole bunch of things relating to travel - medical (sickness, accidents), lost luggage, various IT things, legal costs etc. The car insurance was a tiny piece of it and came as a standard with the policy. Or Avis will drop a car off at your home the night before - surprisingly few people take this up though.
Hopefully Avis don't do what Enterprise do, which is phone you up the day before and tell you they've got nobody to drop it off, so you'll have to pick it up from their branch. Historically I think the company viewed hire cars as lower risk than employees own cars, even with the latter correctly insured. I don't really know if these days such a distinction really exists.

Anyway I think we're well clear of the topic at hand which was train crew transport.
 

Thirteen

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2021
Messages
1,904
Location
London
Precisely. The Independent are independent of a party or ownership. The name doesn't mean that they're exclusively centrists or neutral. But their columnists are varied, as is typical.
Calder is the rent a travel expert but I'm not really a fan of his advice.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,351
Location
Bolton
Calder is the rent a travel expert but I'm not really a fan of his advice.
Indeed. He's more of a consumer commentator than a social one usually so this foray doesn't really seem to work for him. But at the same time it's his column not mine.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,691
Precisely. The Independent are independent of a party or ownership. The name doesn't mean that they're exclusively centrists or neutral. But their columnists are varied, as is typical.
I feel that it is good to have someone like Simon Calder comment in the Independent. There should be no harm done by such 'outsiders' who keep to the facts.
 

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
929
Hopefully Avis don't do what Enterprise do, which is phone you up the day before and tell you they've got nobody to drop it off, so you'll have to pick it up from their branch. Historically I think the company viewed hire cars as lower risk than employees own cars, even with the latter correctly insured. I don't really know if these days such a distinction really exists.

Anyway I think we're well clear of the topic at hand which was train crew transport.
indeed - well off topic so I will stop now
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,516
Indeed. He's more of a consumer commentator than a social one usually so this foray doesn't really seem to work for him.
I’m not sure where you get that idea, he’s largely reflecting the opinions of many regular rail users & enthusiasts who aren’t staunch Trade Unionists or Brexiteers
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,351
Location
Bolton
I’m not sure where you get that idea, he’s largely reflecting the opinions of many regular rail users & enthusiasts who aren’t staunch Trade Unionists or Brexiteers
I doubt very much that the general public would say this:
You might recall the union said: “The latest strike dates will impact engineering work not train services.” Is there a better example of self-harm? A union that is dependent on a functioning railway system with maximum capacity and speed, and minimum signal and points failures, came up with the brilliant strategy of wrecking £120m of much-needed and long-planned improvement projects.
It barely makes any sense. The general public has probably not got any difficulty with the idea that going on strike is inconvenient for your employer, but it seems Mr Calder doesn't quite see it that way.

What is more there was not a very large impact on engineering works, although there was a serious impact from advice against travel on Christmas Eve, which is what the general public and rail users will have taken from it.
 
Last edited:

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,498
Thinking a bit more about this, it’s difficult to see it as anything other than a collection of suggestions by people who don’t really understand the current system - ie medalling politicians.

Supposedly 'Employers tabled the draft proposal to set out national principles'. I do wonder if they all understood the way in which these would be presented and appear to the target audience? One of our resident manager's on here though believes in public negotiation, I'd say this is a perfect example of why it's a bad idea for them.

It does read a bit like they don’t already know what goes on.

Hopefully it sets a framework so individual TOCs and reps can negotiate. RDG can then pat themselves on the back saying they resolved the dispute.

I'd hope that it can be largely ignored, but the DfT will presumably use it as a check list before agreeing anything. Their idea of what is worth 4% for two years will probably be vastly different from what anyone on the railway thinks, even most management.

Steve Montgomery was on BBC Radio 4's Today programme just after 0750 this morning.
He stated that if the first offer made to Aslef was accepted then in a year's time the average train driver would be on £64,000 a year.
Is this figure correct?

I think it's another worthless statement from him that can only be considered counter productive, though the number's going down, as it was 'almost £65k' in the press release yesterday... It might make more sense if he was offering to bring all Driver's up to the supposed £64k average. Rubbing many Drivers noses in it that they're being offered a poor offer that'll still leave them below the now much publicised average for a train driver seems like an odd selling point.

I'm not sure what the sense is in deciding that your audience is the general public rather than the Drivers you're appealing to, if you have what I imagine is supposed to be his remit.
 
Last edited:

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,516
I doubt very much that the general public would say this:
Ok at the time of posting I’d only read the section quoted by @Thirteen which I thought was the complete article, Both sides in this dispute seem to prefer mind games to facts .
 
Last edited:

newtownmgr

On Moderation
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
738
Think this thread should be entitled ‘RDG make unrealistic offer to the media’ as it’s certainly not been made to ASLEF.

A few of the things in this ‘press release’ are unworkable & will have the companies banging there heads against the wall in frustration, let alone the union. What isn’t potentially unsafe/dangerous is just unworkable.

We have 14 different TOC’s with different t&c’s & in some cases where TOC’s have been amalgamated small differences in t&c’s still within the same TOC’s. Trying to work out what would apply to which bit would take months.

Privatisation was done in such a way that collective bargaining would be ended, to stop a national strike in the future. Yet this government are now trying to return to collective bargaining & it won’t work. Unfortunately i suspect they know it won’t work & that is part of the problem.
If they were to set a framework up to allow each company to negotiate i’m certain deals can be reached.

As it stands with that press release (not a realistic offer so want call it that) the union & RDG are miles apart still.
 

XIX7007177

Member
Joined
6 Jun 2018
Messages
85
Think this thread should be entitled ‘RDG make unrealistic offer to the media’ as it’s certainly not been made to ASLEF.

A few of the things in this ‘press release’ are unworkable & will have the companies banging there heads against the wall in frustration, let alone the union. What isn’t potentially unsafe/dangerous is just unworkable.

We have 14 different TOC’s with different t&c’s & in some cases where TOC’s have been amalgamated small differences in t&c’s still within the same TOC’s. Trying to work out what would apply to which bit would take months.

Privatisation was done in such a way that collective bargaining would be ended, to stop a national strike in the future. Yet this government are now trying to return to collective bargaining & it won’t work. Unfortunately i suspect they know it won’t work & that is part of the problem.
If they were to set a framework up to allow each company to negotiate i’m certain deals can be reached.

As it stands with that press release (not a realistic offer so want call it that) the union & RDG are miles apart still.
They(dft etc) should allow a percentage and then becomes up to TOCs and local reps to sort out.
 

Skie

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2008
Messages
1,239
They(dft etc) should allow a percentage and then becomes up to TOCs and local reps to sort out.
That’s how it works for the Civil Service (the treasury set limits on the overall percentage value of increases, but departments can allocate it around as they see fit) and it isn’t a good solution. Some departments end up paying more to some grades than others, and over the years it becomes essential to move departments to actually get more pay as the disparity can be 10-15k for the same job.

Demonic Cummings was wrong about a lot of things, but he was right about how backwards the incentives and career progression are in the civil service, it leads to organisational knowledge being lost.

Do you really want guards and drivers swapping to other tocs even more than they do now?
 

XIX7007177

Member
Joined
6 Jun 2018
Messages
85
That’s how it works for the Civil Service (the treasury set limits on the overall percentage value of increases, but departments can allocate it around as they see fit) and it isn’t a good solution. Some departments end up paying more to some grades than others, and over the years it becomes essential to move departments to actually get more pay as the disparity can be 10-15k for the same job.

Demonic Cummings was wrong about a lot of things, but he was right about how backwards the incentives and career progression are in the civil service, it leads to organisational knowledge being lost.

Do you really want guards and drivers swapping to other tocs even more than they do now?
There is already a disparity in pay between drivers at tocs. So a one size fits all isn’t going to help.

Not much movement happens between tocs. Apprenticeships and getting people of the street seems to be the norm now rather than poaching qualified from other tocs.
 

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,225
Think this thread should be entitled ‘RDG make unrealistic offer to the media’ as it’s certainly not been made to ASLEF.

A few of the things in this ‘press release’ are unworkable & will have the companies banging there heads against the wall in frustration, let alone the union. What isn’t potentially unsafe/dangerous is just unworkable.

We have 14 different TOC’s with different t&c’s & in some cases where TOC’s have been amalgamated small differences in t&c’s still within the same TOC’s. Trying to work out what would apply to which bit would take months.

Privatisation was done in such a way that collective bargaining would be ended, to stop a national strike in the future. Yet this government are now trying to return to collective bargaining & it won’t work. Unfortunately i suspect they know it won’t work & that is part of the problem.
If they were to set a framework up to allow each company to negotiate i’m certain deals can be reached.

As it stands with that press release (not a realistic offer so want call it that) the union & RDG are miles apart still.

At the heart of the problem is that we have an institutionally incompetent government. Any talent was expunged before the 2019 General Election.

Does the government even know what it's doing? What's its end game here?

We have the bizarre situation whereby the government dogmatically insists on long-term involvement of the private sector in running passenger railways yet is insistent on micromanaging those companies and conducting pay negotiations on a national collective level.

It can't have it both ways. If it was true to its philosophy it would not be involved in anything to do with pay with at least the private TOCs. The TOCs know their budgets for next year and it would be up to them to negotiate on an individual basis.
 
Last edited:

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,806
Completely agree. To add to that, any pay offer would still have to go to a ballot of drivers. Ultimately it's that little piece of paper that decides
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,516
. The TOCs know their budgets for next year and it would be up to them to negotiate on an individual basis.
The privatisation honeymoon period has long passed, An Avanti offer of say 6% no strings in the current industrial relations climate almost guarantees multiple disputes at other TOCs that don’t at least match it, so may as well do it collectively, but I totally agree ive no idea what their end game is
 
Last edited:

Mcrdvr

On Moderation
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
20
Location
Manchester
There is already a disparity in pay between drivers at tocs. So a one size fits all isn’t going to help.

Not much movement happens between tocs. Apprenticeships and getting people of the street seems to be the norm now rather than poaching qualified from other tocs.
Regarding movement, dozens of qualified drivers have jumped ship at the toc I'm at last year.
 

43066

Veteran Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
12,089
Location
London
Ok at the time of posting I’d only read the section quoted by @Thirteen which I thought was the complete article, Both sides in this dispute seem to prefer mind games to facts .

The government are the ones who have consistently lied about their influence over the dispute, and actively sought to prolong it by scuppering a deal with the RMT.


The privatisation honeymoon period has long passed, If Avanti offer 6% no strings in the current industrial relations climate it pretty much guarantees multiple disputes at other TOCs that don’t at least match it, so may as well do it collectively, but I totally agree ive no idea what their end game is

It makes no sense to do it collectively when there’s a disparity of £20k plus between TOCs and a raft of different Ts and Cs.

6%ish with no major strings (as per Scotland) would settle the dispute and avoid the ongoing cost to the economy, now £3bn and climbing according to The Times.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,516
6%ish with no major strings (as per Scotland) would settle the dispute and avoid the ongoing cost to the economy, now £3bn and climbing according to The Times.
That may well be essentially what happens, ie up the offer a bit + many posters claim the desired changes are already largely in place at their employer
 

43066

Veteran Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
12,089
Location
London
That may well be essentially what happens, ie up the offer a bit + many posters claim the desired changes are already largely in place at their employer

That’s true, hence it really would make a lot more sense to allow local negotiation. It’s not totally clear whether that is, in fact, what is happening (let’s hope it is for the sake of the sanity of everyone involved).

Otherwise it’s a bizarre spectacle for a supposedly small state Tory government to be medalling quite so intricately with the minutiae of what is agreed, having spent months telling us this is all between the unions and the employers!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Regarding movement, dozens of qualified drivers have jumped ship at the toc I'm at last year.

Agreed, quite a few are still moving in the London area.
 
Last edited:

whoosh

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,902
It's all a ruse to get in their Minimum Service Level during strikes, manifesto pledge, whilst making out that the unions are being difficult.

It's similar to the introduction of Night Tube, where the unions had been asking for months for talks to change the working parameters to enable Night Tube and were refused talks until July, after Night Tube's introduction had been announced for the September. There had been no extra recruitment at that stage, so no chance of it happening, but it fitted the narrative of "bad trade union Barons etc."
 

baz962

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2017
Messages
3,672
There is already a disparity in pay between drivers at tocs. So a one size fits all isn’t going to help.

Not much movement happens between tocs. Apprenticeships and getting people of the street seems to be the norm now rather than poaching qualified from other tocs.
More are using trainee or apprenticeship routes, but still quite a bit of qualified movement. We have quite a few leaving and we are starting quite a few too.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,691
I fully expect the government to let this drag on for much longer. The rate of inflation should be reducing and it will gradually become easier to equate an increase to a lower level of inflation. In any event, they can just continue to insist on some key changes to the T&Cs.

All the time that the public are far more concerned with the nurses, and NHS in general, it will suit the government to move slowly.
 

jagardner1984

Member
Joined
11 May 2008
Messages
763
Seems utterly bizarre that given the political priority is shoring up the economy (his own pledges said so but a few days ago) - they seem willing to inflict massive further harm to it to persist with the narrative of "barons" - whilst trade union membership is certainly concentrated in certain professions, it is almost like the relaunch occurring this week it has suddenly dawned upon on them that the hundreds of thousands of striking Nurses, Ambulance drivers, Teachers, Rail Workers, Border staff, are not in fact exclusively Corbynista Red Beret wearing marxists, but, it turns out, just people (many of whom will vote in marginal seats), and akin to every political and economic struggle in history, some compromise and conciliation from all sides will probably lead to a better outcome for all than the deliberate drawing of dividing lines to score cheap points on breakfast telly.
 

XIX7007177

Member
Joined
6 Jun 2018
Messages
85
What the RDG have released does seem a bit like they are attaching some conditions that kind of happen anyway, won’t be able to be achieved or the TOCs won’t want just to make the problem go away without changing much. But seemingly to the general public and government change has happened.

Devil will be in the detail, but does anyone else get that feeling from what they released?
 

43066

Veteran Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
12,089
Location
London
More are using trainee or apprenticeship routes, but still quite a bit of qualified movement. We have quite a few leaving and we are starting quite a few too.

More noticeable at my place because so many seem to leave and then come straight back! Wonderful bunch of colleagues.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top