For the HST fans among us.

[hougtimo]

The class 43 has to be my favourite traction I think. However I don't actually know all that much about them - so, I have some questions.

How many units were built?
Were all the powercars paired up and that was it? Or have they been paired differently throughout their careers?
Were the valenta engines the originals?
How many (why and which - if anyone knows) units have been scrapped / no longer with us?
Have any had any particular spectacular faliures?

Also, is there any practical reason why an HST wouldn't be able to run between Hull - Scarborough and Scarborough - York? (AFAIK the latter has been done with specials).

Cheeyaz!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh - and does anyone know why the headlights seem to have been altered on them?

 

[TomJ93]

I think 200 were built, the only ones that are no longer with us were the ones involved in the GWML crashed at Southall and ermm Ladbrooke Grove and Ufton Nervet, 3 in total.

 

[ainsworth74]

How many units were built?

197 Powercars have been built, not sure how many sets in total.

Were all the powercars paired up and that was it? Or have they been paired differently throughout their careers?

That was the original plan (back when they were still classed as DMUs) but these days they regularly swap around.

Were the valenta engines the originals?

Yes.

How many (why and which - if anyone knows) units have been scrapped / no longer with us?

I believe the only 43s or Mk3s to have been scrapped are those that have been written off in accidents. So probably not that many all in all. I don't know the exact number. But as far as I know a whole set has never been scrapped at the same time.

Have any had any particular spectacular faliures?

What do you mean by 'spectacular'?

Also, is there any practical reason why an HST wouldn't be able to run between Hull - Scarborough and Scarborough - York?

Well it would be total overkill for the passenger loadings on that line, as well as the fact lines speeds are low and the Scarborough - Hull route features a lot of stopping services and short platforms. To be honest I have no idea why anyone would want to put HSTs on those routes (other than for railtour specials or the EMT summer weekend extensions from York).

Oh - and does anyone know why the headlights seem to have been altered on them?

New and better design than was originally available I would expect. Do the HST headlights now use LEDs?

 

[starrymarkb]

Headlights are new High Intensity Discharge as per the latest standards. Most units are also getting them (for units it is just a basic swap of the light module best spotted by having new LED tail lights in addition to the high power lamps)

 

[hougtimo]

With regard to the lights I meant the originals had rectangular 'car' style headlights (think Ford Galaxy) but now they're all little ovals?

Also with regard to the hull / scarborough / york thing the only reason I ask is it would look awesome in Scarborough station's surroundings.

 

[ainsworth74]

With regard to the lights I meant the originals had rectangular 'car' style headlights (think Ford Galaxy) but now they're all little ovals?

As starrymarkb said, new standards new design. Personally I think the new design looks better.

Also with regard to the hull / scarborough / york thing the only reason I ask is it would look awesome in Scarborough station's surroundings.

Well other than railtours I doubt your going to see one at Scarborough any time soon. There is no reason for them to go there in service (as EMT use 222s on the summer runs).

 

[hougtimo]

As starrymarkb said, new standards new design. Personally I think the new design looks better.



Well other than railtours I doubt your going to see one at Scarborough any time soon. There is no reason for them to go there in service (as EMT use 222s on the summer runs).

I know there's no reason. I only asked whether technically it would be possible. I was thinking more along the lines of platform lengths etc...

 

[mumrar]

Have any had any particular spectacular faliures?

Local to me a Valenta set failed climbing the Lickey, bound for Edinburgh, the turbo shot out of the roof somewhere near Vigo Bridge.

A class 60 was sent to rescue, couples up, couldn't get brake release when under power and snapped the coupling! Some poor bloke(s) then had to detach the coupling from the rear power car, carry it UP the Lickey on ballast, and fit it to the front power car. Needless to say, I think a speed restriction was in place due to previous snapping, and the set rolled in to New Street some 6+ hours late.

It was a long time ago 15+ years, so a lot of these details may have embelished the story over time.

 

[ainsworth74]

I know there's no reason. I only asked whether technically it would be possible. I was thinking more along the lines of platform lengths etc...

Well York would be okay, Malton and Seamer wouldn't be without reopening some of the disused platform at each end of those and Scarborough would obviously be okay.

On the Yorkshire coast line Bridlington will be just a bit too short I would think, Hull will be okay. Everything else on that line will be way way to short for a HST (in any of the current formations of 2+7, 2+8 or 2+9 at least).

Other than that sure there would be no problems. I would guess they are gauge cleared on both routes so from that point of view there would be no issue, just most platforms would be far too short.

 

[mallard]

Just how short are the platforms on those lines?

Currently, on the MML there are several HST workings each day which call at Loughborough, where the platforms are too short to open the doors on the last carriage of a 5-car 222.

 

[Adamw5433]

Have any had any particular spectacular faliures?

I can't recall any really spectacular failures.
But i do direct you to these youtube links:

Rear HST deciding it doesn't like its traction motors any more:
Best start at time index 0:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXcR8YfDiys


Another HST presumably with more traction motor problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhp5i1EITxc

A common fault years ago was oil leaking into the turbos on the valenta engines. Then igniting with lots of smoke and still running, or the engine failing.

It happened once in the late 1980s, just south of Darlington station.
The fire brigade were called out to deal with it.
The line was blocked in both directions if i recall correctly.


Adam

 

[ainsworth74]

Just how short are the platforms on those lines?

It varies as I recall some of them are short enough that you would get a power car and a coach on, but most probably would fit a power car and 2-3 coaches. The only stations that would take a HST without modifications are Hull and Scarborough, Bridlington I suspect might be just a bit too short (probably have a couple of coaches and a power car hanging off the end).

 

[142]

How many (why and which - if anyone knows) units have been scrapped / no longer with us?

43001 was scrapped at Booths Rotherham in 1990 after it was withdrawn.

43011 was lead powercar in the Ladbroke Grove crash 5 October 1999 and scrapped at Sims Crewe.

43019 was lead powercar in the Ufton Nervet crash 6 November 2004 and scrapped at Sims Beeston.

43173 was lead powercar in the Southall crash 19 September 1997 and scrapped at MOD Shoeburyness.

Have any had any particular spectacular faliures? The 43003 saga!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know there's no reason. I only asked whether technically it would be possible. I was thinking more along the lines of platform lengths etc...

Platform length isnt an issue, FGW ones stop on very short platforms, Stonehouse for example only coaches A&B are platformed, will have to video it when I get round to it

 

[ainsworth74]

The 43003 saga!

Care to fill us in?

 

[MCR247]

Just how short are the platforms on those lines?

Currently, on the MML there are several HST workings each day which call at Loughborough, where the platforms are too short to open the doors on the last carriage of a 5-car 222.

EMT ones don't have SDO due to Grandfather rights, so therefore you would need SDO to call at those stations

 

[142]

Care to fill us in?

43003 is the powercar that has just about managed to fail in every way. It caught fire twice last year and has failed with other problems several times. The most recent episode was when it caught fire while with 43017 working 1A37 which is the last London bound HST of a night, its the 21:29 TAU-PAD all stations to Swindon except Weston Milton. This was november, it was still in the same place it was dumped at laira last time i saw it. Not sure if its back out now though. Its 1 of the last 7 fgw ones i need for haulage!

 

[philjo]

Also, is there any practical reason why an HST wouldn't be able to run between Hull - Scarborough and Scarborough - York? (AFAIK the latter has been done with specials).

HSTs might not be permitted on the Hull-Scarborough line.
on the UKRT trip last summer returning to Kings Cross from Scarborough via Beverley, the train used a 66 as 67s are banned from the coast line. One bridge had a 5mph speed limit on it.
We were also told that loco-hauled trains along that line were limited to something like 5 per year

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Once upon a time (and not all that long ago), there used to be a direct service from Glasgow Queen Street to and from Scarborough on summer Saturdays, catering for the (presumably) fairly large flow of Scottish holidaymakers who went to Scarborough for their holidays.

I remember, back in about 1987, travelling on this train from York to Scarborough (in that direction, it stopped at York to pick up only!) and it being completely rammed - the Guard took pity on us and allowed us to sit in First Class.

I'm not sure how far it survived into privatisation and GNER days, but it certainly, for at least one summer timetable in the 1990s, ran all the way to and from Hull (via the Wolds Coast line) - I don't know if it stopped anywhere in between, but I'd assume it called at Bridlington and Beverley. By then, it had also been diverted to run to / from Glasgow Central, once electrification between Edinburgh and Carstairs had seen all other East Coast services also running to and from Glasgow Central, rather than Queen Street.

But it certainly means HSTs are cleared to run along this line.

 

[fgwrich]

How many (why and which - if anyone knows) units have been scrapped / no longer with us?

43019 was lead powercar in the Ufton Nervet crash 6 November 2004 and scrapped at Sims Beeston.

All but the cab of 19 was scrapped...Cab kept for spares in DML Devonport...

 

[RobShipway]

Just for further info First Great Western has 57 sets of HST trains and 117 Class 43 locomotives. Each set in the main has 7 coaches, but I think there is some sets with 8 coaches in the set, but I stand to be corrected on that point.

 

[MCR247]

They have 2+8 and 2+7 sets.

 

[ainsworth74]

They have 2+8 and 2+7 sets.

Didn't know that, for some reason I thought they had a unified 2+8 fleet. What's the formations of two different types of set?

 

[RobShipway]

The 2+8 sets do the services to Bristol and on to Penzance, the 2+7 sets do the services to Cheltenham and along the Cotwolds etc.....

 

[142]

Didn't know that, for some reason I thought they had a unified 2+8 fleet. What's the formations of two different types of set?

the formations of the sets are as follows

2+7: PC-TF-TF-TRSB-TS-TSD-TS-TGS-PC

Using standard buffets

2+8: PC-TF-TF-TRFB-TS-TS-TSD-TS-TGS-PC

Using first class buffets

 

[ainsworth74]

The 2+8 sets do the services to Bristol and on to Penzance, the 2+7 sets do the services to Cheltenham and along the Cotwolds etc.....

Ahh interesting, what about the make up of the sets (as in x number of TFs x number of TSs)?

 

[142]

the 2+7 sets do the services to Cheltenham and along the Cotwolds etc.....

Not always, the Cheltenham services are either 2+7 or 2+8, for the most the sets that operate on Cheltenhams are LE sets, its 50/50 as to what you get on them. The Cotswold line services are almost all 2+7 sets.

 

[RobShipway]

Not always, the Cheltenham services are either 2+7 or 2+8, for the most the sets that operate on Cheltenhams are LE sets, its 50/50 as to what you get on them. The Cotswold line services are almost all 2+7 sets.

Thank you for the correction 142.

 

[142]

Ahh interesting, what about the make up of the sets (as in x number of TFs x number of TSs)?

19 TRSBs 40101-19 (standard buffets)
6 TRFB (GN1G) 40204/5/7/10/21/31 (normal buffets)
18 TRFB (GK1G) 40703/7/10/13/15/16/18/21/22/24/27/33/34/39/43/52/55/57 (normal buffets)
11 TRFB (GL1G) 40801-11 (travelling chef buffets)
5 TRFB (GN1G) 40900-4 (normal buffet with TM office)

for the most all sets have 2 TFs, 1 Buffet either TRSB or TRFB, 1 TSD, 1 TGS and 2 TS for sets with standard buffets and 3 TS for first class buffets, though it is not uncommon for there to be misformed sets, particularly on the last Cheltenham as that set after arriving runs ECS to Landore.

Coach D on them is usually TV coach though there are a couple of misformed sets with 2 TV coaches and some with none.

This is a standard buffet http://www.uk-train.fotopic.net/p68635871.html
This is a TSD http://www.uk-train.fotopic.net/p68635873.html
This is a TS with TVs (which is identical inside to a normal TS but without TVs) http://www.uk-train.fotopic.net/p67068355.html
This is a normal TF http://www.uk-train.fotopic.net/p68096476.html

 

[ainsworth74]

Cheers