Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[Domh245]

Ensuring our national debt is falling - this one he's more in control of, it means more "austerity" though.

Interesting that it's specifically debt, and not deficit. Running a budgetary surplus (with no given timeframe but presumably by the next GE in (at latest) Jan 2025) is certainly going to be a stretch I think, and definitely involve a lot of pain

 

[GS250]

War in Ukraine, energy and other costs soaring. Health service in crisis and everyone else on strike. Malevolent regimes across the world at the very least wishing us harm, and probably funding a lot of the problematic stuff going on. Working and non working people alike struggling to keep going.

Naturally, everyone's top priority is having better maths skills.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==


Not sure I'd even go that far. It feels like he had no other plan beyond becoming PM. Clueless and totally out of touch.

Agreed there's outside factors that are partially responsible for the current ill feeling in the UK. However Sunak and Hunt are simply unelectable.

 

[jfollows]

Interesting that it's specifically debt, and not deficit. Running a budgetary surplus (with no given timeframe but presumably by the next GE in (at latest) Jan 2025) is certainly going to be a stretch I think, and definitely involve a lot of pain

I think "the markets" cared about national debt and downgraded the UK immediately when Liz Truss's budget was going to increase the national debt, so Rishi is trying here to promise that he's not like Liz.

 

[najaB]

Given the school leaving age was raised to eradicate youth unemployment caused by low wage migration, and given the repeated concerns raised now about labour shortages, surely what would help our economy is correcting the leaving age back to 16. Not force teaching advanced maths to 18 year olds. It's not going to create a country of "mathletes".

Note I said STEM, not just mathematics.

That's the basis of a high-value economy. An army of 16 year-old shop workers isn't going to help us that much in the long term.

 

[jfollows]

Ed Conway at Sky (Ed Conway) says

1. Already @bankofengland’s central forecast. Easy.
2. Does that mean annual GDP growth in 2023? If so, NB most forecasters expect contraction. Tough.
3. V unlikely near term; in a few years maybe. V tough.
4. Again, expected to carry on rising this yr. Tough.
5. Let’s see.

Kevin Maguire at the Daily Mirror (Kevin Maguire) says

Halve inflation - this year but still relatively high
Grow the economy - BoE forecast long recession
Reduce debt - not again
Cut waiting lists - when/how much?
Stop the boats - can’t/won’t

Some commentators say that the first three are generally predicted to happen anyway, certainly the first one.

 

[GS250]

Note I said STEM, not just mathematics.

That's the basis of a high-value economy. An army of 16 year-old shop workers isn't going to help us that much in the long term.

Agreed. Although STEM salaries in the UK need to match those elsewhere in the World. Those ex schoolfriends of mine who went into STEM...all immediately left the UK to work abroad once they graduated. One still lives in the USA today working for Boeing. When I talk to him about why he left the UK he simply replied you earn double the money and are afforded a lot more respect. Others went to Germany for similar reasons.

 

[Parjon]

Note I said STEM, not just mathematics.

That's the basis of a high-value economy. An army of 16 year-old shop workers isn't going to help us that much in the long term.

When you talk about a having a "high value economy" you omit the fact that the jobs it provides are for a minority of the population. If the majority of people worked in "STEM" we would starve. The majority don't and won't, and Sunak insisting they study as if they will is just wasting everyone's time.

16 year old shopworkers may be there to help you try on your shoes, but beyond that it's what helps them that matters. And getting into the world of work is of distinct benefit, however lowly you think it.

 

[bspahh]

When you talk about a having a "high value economy" you omit the fact that the jobs it provides are for a minority of the population. If the majority of people worked in "STEM" we would starve. The majority don't and won't, and Sunak insisting they study as if they will is just wasting everyone's time.

Regardless of what Sunak says, he is not insisting that teenagers study more maths. He is insisting that people stop going on about his government's failures elsewhere.

 

[najaB]

When you talk about a having a "high value economy" you omit the fact that the jobs it provides are for a minority of the population. If the majority of people worked in "STEM" we would starve. The majority don't and won't, and Sunak insisting they study as if they will is just wasting everyone's time.

Well, that goes without saying.

However, current government priorities mean that those jobs are being provided by a minority of other countries' populations rather than ours and there are a lot of young people in the UK who could, would and should be working in STEM sectors but have been put off by our education system.

 

[Parjon]

Regardless of what Sunak says, he is not insisting that teenagers study more maths. He is insisting that people stop going on about his government's failures elsewhere.

As it serves only to underline how badly he meets the job spec, I really don't think it is a dead cat distraction. I believe it's what he wants to see and views as important.

Other hints are his ordering a value report on providing supoort to Ukraine. I'm sure he's an amazing mathematician, and fiscal decision maker. But what he thinks is important really isn't to most people.

 

[yorksrob]

STEM is an interesting one.

There are some people with an inclination towards those sort of subjects (heaven knows I'm not one of them) and it would behove the country to remove barriers to people progressing in them. The best way to do this would be to provide quality education in schools and removing barriers to higher education such as high tuition fees. That might be seen as elitist though !

 

[Parjon]

Well, that goes without saying.

However, current government priorities mean that those jobs are being provided by a minority of other countries' populations rather than ours and there are a lot of young people in the UK who could, would and should be working in STEM sectors but have been put off by our education system.

I wouldn't dispute that, but the answer there is to run schools not the awful environments served to the majority. Extending students misery by 2 years when many are left to self educate is dumb.

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't dispute that, but the answer there is to run schools not the awful environments served to the majority. Extending students misery by 2 years when many are left to self educate is dumb.

Which is why I said that he's identified a problem but provided no meaningful solution.

 

[jfollows]

STEM is an interesting one.

There are some people with an inclination towards those sort of subjects (heaven knows I'm not one of them) and it would behove the country to remove barriers to people progressing in them. The best way to do this would be to provide quality education in schools and removing barriers to higher education such as high tuition fees. That might be seen as elitist though !

I'm such a person, I have an engineering degree and post-O-level qualifications in mathematics and physics.

There were no barriers to my progression, but this came with

• Entry to grammar school through entrance examination (1973)
• Free place through local authority examination
• Train and bus fares paid for by local authority
• No university tuition fees (1980) plus means-tested grant
• Tube fares paid by local authority once I moved more than a certain distance from university (1982)
• Supplementary benefit payable during university holidays
• Housing benefit payable as contribution to rent (1983)
• Addition year's tuition and means-tested grant because I failed my exams and changed course (1981)

The problem is, we can't put the clock back. Some was mainly a subsidy to the middle classes which couldn't be sustained either morally or because of vastly increasing university attendance. The abolition of the direct grant system was controversial but it happened and it had its reasons.

I'll also say that I would have progressed without some of this anyway, and it would have been harder without other bits.

So if we can't turn back the clock, what do we do instead? I'm sure I don't know.

 

[david1212]

It's recognition of a real problem that's holding the UK economy back - the generally poor state of STEM skills - while providing no actual solution.

Pretty on-par for this government really.

Knowing individual bits of theory and being able to regurgitate them in an exam is rather different to applying several of them in the real practical world of producing and maintaining items and systems.

While better now there is still a shortage of apprenticeships. One reason is many companies have at best limited long term secure orders and contracts they can offset the apprenticeship cost against. Short term the quick and easy solution is the combination of poaching employees who can hit the ground running, overtime, contractors and sub-contracting work.

 

[The Ham]

War in Ukraine, energy and other costs soaring. Health service in crisis and everyone else on strike. Malevolent regimes across the world at the very least wishing us harm, and probably funding a lot of the problematic stuff going on. Working and non working people alike struggling to keep going.

Naturally, everyone's top priority is having better maths skills.

Certainly better maths skills is up to 100% of people's priories.

Just like "world beating" (without defining which world).

 

[jon0844]

Other hints are his ordering a value report on providing supoort to Ukraine. I'm sure he's an amazing mathematician, and fiscal decision maker. But what he thinks is important really isn't to most people.

You have the extreme elements in the USA also demanding a cut to money for Ukraine, so I guess that's going to be a new narrative going forward. It's easier to argue for a cut in spending than coming out in support of Putin, along the whole 'charity begins at home' line.

As for maths, as someone said so well earlier on, you should have all the tools you need to get by in life with GCSE maths. The things you didn't learn you'd know how to look up, and you could study more if you actually needed to. I don't really see what people stand to gain by studying maths until 18, and can think of many other things that we should try and make sure everyone learns to get by in daily life.

 

[takno]

At the risk of going too far down a rabbit-hole, we need to maximise the numbers of people engaged and trained in STEM skillsets, while also enabling the people who want to go into our hugely valuable creative sectors, and providing useful life education to everybody, including people who don't have the inclination or ability to do either. In order to do that you need to identify who to give the relevant education to, and ideally to do that at a reasonably young age.

I think the years 7-11 maths curriculum is probably pretty well-targeted at useful life skills - it's reasonably stats and geometry heavy and focuses on transferable skills. Teaching this well (which is a challenge caused by the paucity of good teachers willing to work for peanuts) is sufficient for all the above purposes. Teaching it again between 16 and 18 to people who didn't pick it up the first time, or have changed their priorities, is reasonable.

Teaching more maths post 16 to people who have made their life choices and don't want it doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever. Suggesting it is out-of-touch and absurd, which is perhaps not surprising coming from Sunak.

 

[Yew]

If the majority of people worked in "STEM" we would starve.

I'm not certain that's that case , perhaps it was before those pesky Engineers invented the combine harvester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==

The problem is, we can't put the clock back. Some was mainly a subsidy to the middle classes which couldn't be sustained either morally or because of vastly increasing university attendance.

Why can't we, graduates generally earn more than people who are not, so will pay the difference back in terms of raw tax, and that's before we consider the economic benefits of a skilled workforce.

 

[The Ham]

I'm not certain that's that case , perhaps it was before those pesky Engineers invented the combine harvester.

Or designed refrigeration to limit for wastage.

Or designed railways to allow the mass movement of goods.

Or the scientists who develop agro chemicals, to allow greater crop yields.

Or those who are using drones to provide precision fertiliser so that less is needed to create more.

 

[edwin_m]

Or designed refrigeration to limit for wastage.

Or designed railways to allow the mass movement of goods.

Or the scientists who develop agro chemicals, to allow greater crop yields.

Or those who are using drones to provide precision fertiliser so that less is needed to create more.

But other than that, what did the engineers do for us?

 

[david1212]

If the chosen subjects to study age 16-18 require maths beyond GCSE logically it will either be in the syllabus or studying it separately a prerequisite.

I'm lost now on exam levels but if an 'O'-level or CSE grade 1 pass is not obtained reasonable to try and achieve that level if the pupil is capable but pointless if not. Better to teach something that they could use in the real world be that e.g. building construction or horticulture.

If the chosen subjects were say geography, history and music further maths is irrelevant. What does need to be advised though with combinations like this example is the career opportunities both what they are and how many employees are required.

 

[SuspectUsual]

To put it bluntly, if teaching kids maths from the ages of 4 to 16 doesn’t give them the basic maths skills to navigate their lives and careers, something is very wrong with either the relevance of the syllabus they’re taught or the quality of the teaching. And if that’s the case, another two years of the same probably won’t help

 

[birchesgreen]

Two things spring to mind, where are all these extra maths teachers coming from?

Also, if students are doing x number of hours of maths then thats x number of hours they arn't studying the subjects they wanted / think are more relevant to the future they envisage for themselves.

 

[GS250]

To put it bluntly, if teaching kids maths from the ages of 4 to 16 doesn’t give them the basic maths skills to navigate their lives and careers, something is very wrong with either the relevance of the syllabus they’re taught or the quality of the teaching. And if that’s the case, another two years of the same probably won’t help

Those of us who simply didn't like school soon showed an interest in basic mathematics when it came to earning money.

 

[edwin_m]

Also, if students are doing x number of hours of maths then thats x number of hours they arn't studying the subjects they wanted / think are more relevant to the future they envisage for themselves.

That's expressed as algebra, so according to Rishi nobody will understand it.

 

[jfollows]

It also looks like plans for "privatisation" of Channel 4 will be scrapped.
Good.
Even if you believe in some of the government's current plans, there are far more important ones than this ever was, which only looked like it was fuelled by spite by the dreadful Nadine Dorries.
From https://www.theguardian.com/politic...h-maths-up-to-18-strikes-nhs-uk-politics-live:

Confirmed today by DCMS (reported at https://www.theguardian.com/politic...aster-politics-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-latest):

Yesterday it emerged, from a leaked letter, that Michelle Donelan, the culture secetary, wanted to drop plans to privatise Channel 4. This morning the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has confirmed that privatisation will not go ahead. In a press release it says:

Michelle Donelan has decided not to privatise Channel 4 after reviewing the business case for its sale. The broadcaster will remain in public ownership but with greater commercial flexibility, increased investment in skills and jobs across the UK as well as new production arrangements to support its long-term sustainability and growth.
The government, following discussions with Channel 4 and the independent production sector, have confirmed an ambitious package of measures as an alternative to a sale. This includes reforms via the media bill which will eventually allow Channel 4 to make and own some of its content and a new statutory duty on its board members to protect the broadcaster’s long-term financial sustainability. Channel 4 has also committed to increasing roles outside London and providing more opportunities for people from across the UK to gain experience in the sector as part of this package.

 

[Ladder23]

Those of us who simply didn't like school soon showed an interest in basic mathematics when it came to earning money.

can vouch for this.

I did awful with my maths at school, yet I perused every career I ever dreamed off without having high grades, fire service, railway (various roles, s&t/ pway/ welding) to name a couple.

I think the extension is such a old fashioned idea, and simply unrealistic, the people who make these rules are just out of touch with the real world,

Im sure someone will shoot my thoughts down but that's my opinion

 

[Parjon]

But other than that, what did the engineers do for us?

Well they didn't operate the machinery, plough the fields, pick the fruit, transport the goods, stack the shelves, serve the customers, or drive the buses taking the customers to the shops.

 

[Lost property]

Maths...hated maths, mainly, at school due in no small part to the various socio / psychopaths who felt gratuitous assaults were fundamental to learning...however, I did like maths with a tangible and practical application hence in my career, maths relating to my occupation and hobby were interesting, as were the stats modules in my Degree...

calculus and any form of catatonic algebra simply to fill up theory space on an exam sheet....forget it...so I did.