Toilet unreliability - what can be done?

[Bletchleyite]

I had a thought regarding toilets.

The likes of TfW's 197s only have one accessible toilet. I've often proposed they should have two, one large and one small. But then the problem is that while that might work for an able bodied passenger, it won't for a disabled passenger.

So...what gives? That is, what is it that makes train toilets unreliable, and how can that be addressed? Are there alternative technologies which could replace the vacuum toilet, for instance, which would be more reliable but still offer the reduced frequency of emptying/tank refilling rather than using a traditional water closet which might be more reliable but would use and discharge a lot of water?

I think we can keep as a baseline that "dump on the track" toilets are not an option now even though they are simpler and more reliable. And obviously vandalism can take one out of use, which is hard to avoid, but are there technologies that can reduce its impact in some way? I know for example that sticking vinyls on the toilet walls reduces graffiti by removing the "blank canvas" grey wall.

 

[tomuk]

There are the newer bioreactor toilets that 'process' the effluent so they only need emptying every month rather than every day/week. The 701s for SWR have them. And CAF are fitting them to Civitiys being supplied to NS.

 

[Magdalia]

For health reasons the availability and condition of train toilets is important for me.

But I don't travel on many different types of train these days, so there are lots of trains where I don't know what the toilets are like.

My main moan is the unreliability of vanity units, I have yet to find a design where the soap dispenser, running water and hot air dryer all work effectively.

Mirrors at the correct height for tall people would be good too. And coat hooks: why do some train toilets not have them?

Good passenger information is a bonus. The Thameslink class 700 green and red toilet map in their passenger information systems is very helpful. But Thameslink do need to do something about graffiti in the class 700 toilets.

 

[RobShipway]

For health reasons the availability and condition of train toilets is important for me.

But I don't travel on many different types of train these days, so there are lots of trains where I don't know what the toilets are like.

My main moan is the unreliability of vanity units, I have yet to find a design where the soap dispenser, running water and hot air dryer all work effectively.

Mirrors at the correct height for tall people would be good too. And coat hooks: why do some train toilets not have them?

Good passenger information is a bonus. The Thameslink class 700 green and red toilet map in their passenger information systems is very helpful. But Thameslink do need to do something about graffiti in the class 700 toilets.

Often the coat hooks are getting damaged whether being done purposely or by accident.

The class 197 units certainly in the three car units should have a small toilet in one end carriage with the disabled toilet in the other end carriage. The same could also be done in the two coach class 197 units. However, this would mean taking seat out and it probably would mean the class 197 units then have less capacity than the class 158 units they replace. This is why I think West Midlands Railway had the right idea of having 2 coach and 4 coach units.

There might not be power points and the seats may seem like sitting on ironing boards, but at least there is three toilets including a disabled in an 8 coach class 700 and 4 toilets including a disabled in a 12 coach class 700.

 

[tomuk]

The class 197 units certainly in the three car units should have a small toilet in one end carriage with the disabled toilet in the other end carriage. The same could also be done in the two coach class 197 units. However, this would mean taking seat out and it probably would mean the class 197 units then have less capacity than the class 158 units they replace. .

The 197s already have less seats than the 158s.

 

[mike57]

I think we can keep as a baseline that "dump on the track" toilets are not an option now even though they are simpler and more reliable. And obviously vandalism can take one out of use, which is hard to avoid, but are there technologies that can reduce its impact in some way? I know for example that sticking vinyls on the toilet walls reduces graffiti by removing the "blank canvas" grey wall.

I think there are two issues here, 'condition' and availabilty. Graffiti whilst being annoying doesnt stop you using the toilet for its intended purpose, however a blockage or it being locked out does. I do think the modern toilets seem excessivly complicated. What is wrong with retention tank under the carriage, and letting gravity deal with the clearing much like a normal flush toilet.

In the past I have been on 185s on TPE where both toilets were broken and the guard organised a toilet stop at Leeds, making sure everyone had returned. As to condition, I have a scale to grade toilets, the trainspotting scale, where a 1 is you could eat your dinner off it, and a 10 resembles the famous toilet from the film, and no I wont post a picture, if you havent seen it google it, but remember there is no 'unsee' button

I have encountered one '10' once on a service returning from Liverpool on ladies day at Aintree, and several 8s and 9s, but these issues are mainly due to the users. In terms of disabled access I see no demand for more than 1 per unit obviously in the same carriage as the disabled seating area.

Its interesting that the HSE mandate 4 toilets for premises with 50-75 employees, obviously train carriages wouldn't need this level of provision, but one per cariage seems resonable on any service where journey is more than say 2 hours and less on local services. Not having through gangways between units is another issue, whilst I can see that with 125mph stock that probably isnt possible with lower speed stock surely it should be part of the 'standard spec'

 

[yorksrob]

I'll concentrate on the lack of availability issues.

For anything other than inner suburban, there ought to be a toilet per carriage. This was achieved on the 158's (mainly) but we seem to have gone backwards with modern trains such as the 195's.

Building cross rail trains without toilets is an absolute disgrace, even though people will trot out the arguments about what proportion of passengers go what distance.

That said, I've been on Electrostars where four toilets have been out of use, which is clearly a management issue. Someone on a previous thread suggested that this was more due to them running out of clean water to flush, rather than the waste tank filling up, so this could be solved by more water bowsers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==

There are the newer bioreactor toilets that 'process' the effluent so they only need emptying every month rather than every day/week. The 701s for SWR have them. And CAF are fitting them to Civitiys being supplied to NS.

This seems like a great idea !

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Do some toilets have a "small flush" button (uses less water than a full/normal flush)? That would make sense, because an empty flush tank makes a toilet unusable.

I must admit to not flushing, if I have only peed a bit.

 

[Ken H]

A big part of the problem is people putting stuff down the toilet they shouldnt. The rule should be 'dont put it down the bog unless you ate it first.

But if stations had a reasonable provision of toilets then people would use the train ones less. But station toilets are often hard to find. But hey, there is another coffee stall in the way so all is good.

 

[A0]

I'll concentrate on the lack of availability issues.

For anything other than inner suburban, there ought to be a toilet per carriage. This was achieved on the 158's (mainly) but we seem to have gone backwards with modern trains such as the 195's.

Building cross rail trains without toilets is an absolute disgrace, even though people will trot out the arguments about what proportion of passengers go what distance.

That said, I've been on Electrostars where four toilets have been out of use, which is clearly a management issue. Someone on a previous thread suggested that this was more due to them running out of clean water to flush, rather than the waste tank filling up, so this could be solved by more water bowsers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==



This seems like a great idea !

Bit in bold - Crossrail is an inner suburban service.

Liverpool St - Shenfield is 20 miles - Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate is 21 miles.
Paddington - Reading is 35 miles - Moorgate to Stevenage (via Hertford) is 29 miles.

There are outer suburban services running from both Liverpool St to Shenfield and Paddington to Reading.

 

[MattRat]

Any toilet can break if you flush the wrong thing down it. I wonder how many toilets would be working if people weren't flushing the wrong things down them.

 

[yorksrob]

Bit in bold - Crossrail is an inner suburban service.

Liverpool St - Shenfield is 20 miles - Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate is 21 miles.
Paddington - Reading is 35 miles - Moorgate to Stevenage (via Hertford) is 29 miles.

There are outer suburban services running from both Liverpool St to Shenfield and Paddington to Reading.

If there are outer suburban services from Lpool St to Shenfield and Paddington to Reading, that makes Reading to Shenfield an outer suburban service at least if not a regional one.

 

[Devonian]

Are there alternative technologies which could replace the vacuum toilet, for instance, which would be more reliable but still offer the reduced frequency of emptying/tank refilling rather than using a traditional water closet which might be more reliable but would use and discharge a lot of water?

I think we can keep as a baseline that "dump on the track" toilets are not an option now even though they are simpler and more reliable.

Ever since the WC appeared on the scene, the volume of water used in rinsing and clearing the pan has been an issue, and the vacuum WCs main advantage is that it uses very litle water so needs smaller tanks. 'Bog standard' washdown WCs with retention tanks do exist on railways on the Mk3 sleepers and the Mk4s, but I presume they need larger tanks with very regular tanking and emptying.

There are at least two alternative technologies that have been used on the rails:

The APT and Eurostar (and Amtrak) dealt with the problem with recirculating chemical closets of the type found on older aircraft, which won't flush if the power fails but will still allow urine to drain into their tanks. I seem to recall that the Mk3s had provision - never used - for these to be retrofitted.

The vacuum WC has come from the aviation industry: one other industry that needs low-water, contained loos is camping/caravanning, and in particular the American 'RV' campervan market, which has a lot of gravity-operated contained WCs. The 158s/159s originally used American RV/boat closets that, though fed and drained by gravity, used much less water to flush and, in the case of the 159s, drained into holding tanks: they were electro-pneumatic valve closets with a mechanical valve, rather than a U-bend, to hold water in the pan. A purely mechanical valve closet would be a possibility if you wanted a low water use WC that did not rely on electronics. Hopper type mechanical valve closets are still widely in use on the continent discharging directly - and visibly - onto the tracks, but with a decent seal at the base of the pan like a 159 closet or an RV closet they could discharge into a holding tank. However, mechanical valve closets were superseded by the washdown WC in homes because they were expensive to make ... and required a lot of maintenance to keep them in working order.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The APT and Eurostar (and Amtrak) dealt with the problem with recirculating chemical closets of the type found on older aircraft, which won't flush if the power fails but will still allow urine to drain into their tanks. I seem to recall that the Mk3s had provision - never used - for these to be retrofitted.

This does seem a sensible idea given that the vast majority of people would not, unless absolutely essential, choose to use a train toilet for "#2". Even if it meant the need for a "no solids" light if it had failed

I seem to recall as an aside that ICE1s have urinals as well as toilets, which would reduce water use further, though I could just see a situation where facilities were available for men but not women in that case and I suspect it'd not be seen as acceptable.

 

[Peter0124]

Going into the train toilet to wash my hands only to realise there's no soap or water is like one of the worst things haha

 

[mike57]

I could just see a situation where facilities were available for men but not women in that case and I suspect it'd not be seen as acceptable.

So can I, but its a weak arguement as by providing a urinal you placing less stress on the facilities, and therefore the facilities are more likely to be available to users of both sexes, and a urinal allows a man to complete the operation with less risk of mess, which on a moving train can be a problem, again to the benefit of both sexes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So can I, but its a weak arguement as by providing a urinal you placing less stress on the facilities, and therefore the facilities are more likely to be available to users of both sexes, and a urinal allows a man to complete the operation with less risk of mess, which on a moving train can be a problem, again to the benefit of both sexes.

Talking of emptying tanks and urine, could some sort of evaporator be used in connection with a urinal (maybe even a female one too, they exist) to avoid the need to empty it by effectively distilling off the water and just keeping a small amount of residue needing emptying? Plus no flush water is needed - most urinals now are "waterless".

 

[RobShipway]

The 197s already have less seats than the 158s.

Okay, so the two car class 197's have less seats than the class 158's? I am presuming that this is to fit in the disabled toilet that is used in the class 197's?

Talking of emptying tanks and urine, could some sort of evaporator be used in connection with a urinal (maybe even a female one too, they exist) to avoid the need to empty it by effectively distilling off the water and just keeping a small amount of residue needing emptying? Plus no flush water is needed - most urinals now are "waterless".

The problem that you may have is if anyone places something that they shouldn't within the urinal, you then have a blocked urinal and a toilet that cannot be used.

If there are outer suburban services from Lpool St to Shenfield and Paddington to Reading, that makes Reading to Shenfield an outer suburban service at least if not a regional one.

I believe the majority of the stations that TFL took over running with Elizabeth Line have been rebuilt to include new toilet facilities. I know that Southall certainly was rebuilt to include new toilets within it's station as I was there last Thursday. Even with the Elizabeth line part closed, there was still at least one train every ten minutes going to Abbey Wood eastbound or Heathrow, Maidenhead or Reading westbound.

Having travelled a few times between Seaford and Brighton whether in a class 313 with no toilets or class 377/3 where the toilets are regularly locked out of use, it is best I find to plan comfort breaks if possible enroute to your destination, as you can never tell whether there is going to be toilets on a train and if there is, whether those toilets are usable. You should be able to find out if stations do or do not have toilets via the national rail site https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/. However, some stations may show that they have toilets such as Newhaven Town, but those toilets are mostly locked out of use as the station is pretty much nowadays unstaffed.

So if we take Newhaven Town's details under https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/NVN/details.html, it says about Waiting Rooms location the following: There is a heated waiting room in the ticket office when staffed.

It should also read, there is usable toilets when staffed and you can get the key from them to use said toilet!

 

[tomuk]

Talking of emptying tanks and urine, could some sort of evaporator be used in connection with a urinal (maybe even a female one too, they exist) to avoid the need to empty it by effectively distilling off the water and just keeping a small amount of residue needing emptying? Plus no flush water is needed - most urinals now are "waterless".

see bioreactor toilets I mentioned already

 

[yorksrob]

Okay, so the two car class 197's have less seats than the class 158's? I am presuming that this is to fit in the disabled toilet that is used in the class 197's?


The problem that you may have is if anyone places something that they shouldn't within the urinal, you then have a blocked urinal and a toilet that cannot be used.

I believe the majority of the stations that TFL took over running with Elizabeth Line have been rebuilt to include new toilet facilities. I know that Southall certainly was rebuilt to include new toilets within it's station as I was there last Thursday. Even with the Elizabeth line part closed, there was still at least one train every ten minutes going to Abbey Wood eastbound or Heathrow, Maidenhead or Reading westbound.

Having travelled a few times between Seaford and Brighton whether in a class 313 with no toilets or class 377/3 where the toilets are regularly locked out of use, it is best I find to plan comfort breaks if possible enroute to your destination, as you can never tell whether there is going to be toilets on a train and if there is, whether those toilets are usable. You should be able to find out if stations do or do not have toilets via the national rail site https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/. However, some stations may show that they have toilets such as Newhaven Town, but those toilets are mostly locked out of use as the station is pretty much nowadays unstaffed.

So if we take Newhaven Town's details under https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/NVN/details.html, it says about Waiting Rooms location the following: There is a heated waiting room in the ticket office when staffed.

It should also read, there is usable toilets when staffed and you can get the key from them to use said toilet!

Good points.

Too many stations don't have toilets at all, or only have disabled ones.

One of those occasions where having someone in the booking office facilitates other amenities.