Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[LNW-GW Joint]

Based on using TPE's 802s, I wouldn't say the 80x will be much of an upgrade, except for removing diesels under the wires.
There will be some increase of capacity, and facilities (eg power sockets, phone reception).
Seats will be similar to those on the upgraded 390s which I haven't tried yet.
The 802 ride is of similar bumpiness to a 221, and not up to Pendolino standards.
You can expect to feel the bends on any part of the WCML run at higher than 110mph.
We don't yet know the speed profile, as non-tilt speed over 110mph is yet to be introduced.
805s will still have the 5/10-car combination (not many 10s), 807 is a new 7-car size which can't be doubled up, but can stop at Liverpool South Parkway.

Voyagers have been pretty good on the Avanti routes operated, and the old coach D (which could be designated 1st or standard) was very nice when configured as standard. Elsewhere the priority seats were good if you could get one.
As to where they will go, it's up to market forces and whether any TOC can afford them.
Their home is at Central Rivers, Burton, with the XC fleet.
Their fate may be bound up with that of the similar EMR Meridians, also coming off-lease in a couple of years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 802 ride is of similar bumpiness to a 221, and not up to Pendolino standards.

Have you mixed those up somehow? 221s have the best ride this side of the Class 158 (which has never been bettered). 220s and 222s are a bit rough but not terrible.

As regards Voyager Coach D, there have been reports that Avanti's 80x don't have the standard layout, but rather have quite a lot of tables, reflecting the popularity of Coach D.

 

[hexagon789]

I personally think its a huge upgrade and is very much worth the cost.

I am not much of a fan of the class 221 (voyagers) due to the bumpy ride.

I would also like to know where the 221's will go after they are retired from the AWC fleet

If you think 221s are bad (never thought it personally, just about the smoothest thing after the T4-bogied 158/159s), heaven knows what you'll make of the 80x - as with most modern trains they do not take track irregularities well and the new MU speed profile will give unbalanced cant to similar levels as the Northern section of the ECML between Newcastle and Edinburgh which is lively enough as it is in Mk4s!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you think 221s are bad (never thought it personally, just about the smoothest thing after the T4-bogied 158/159s), heaven knows what you'll make of the 80x - as with most modern trains they do not take track irregularities well and the new MU speed profile will give unbalanced cant to similar levels as the Northern section of the ECML between Newcastle and Edinburgh which is lively enough as it is in Mk4s!

221s don't ride badly, not in the slightest. The only thing I can think of that rides *better* in the UK is 158s, which glide over bad track like it's not there - 70mph over jointed rail on the Far North with barely any movement at all was impressive.

 

[hexagon789]

221s don't ride badly, not in the slightest. The only thing I can think of that rides *better* in the UK is 158s, which glide over bad track like it's not there - 70mph over jointed rail on the Far North with barely any movement at all was impressive.

That's exactly what I was saying though

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have you mixed those up somehow? 221s have the best ride this side of the Class 158 (which has never been bettered). 220s and 222s are a bit rough but not terrible.

Not really, I like 221s unless they are up against 390s, so on Chester-Euston I often switch to a 390 at Crewe for the smoother ride.
There's just a hint of jiggle on the 221, but there is much more on an 802.
As another comparison, I tried a 350/4 on the WCML recently - this was smooth except for the disconcerting sharp horizontal lurches at speed.
I guess nothing's perfect!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess nothing's perfect!

The 158 is close to it.

But back on topic, if you've ever had a 350 at 110mph on the fasts, you could almost stand a 10p coin on end on the table - it's German levels of smooth with almost no movement at all even at the vehicle ends, the slows are much rougher. I think therefore that there won't be any sort of ride issues with these 80x.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 158 is close to it.

You must be mad. Every time I take a 159 it’s vibrating like the world’s largest iPhone on full ringer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You must be mad. Every time I take a 159 it’s vibrating like the world’s largest iPhone on full ringer.

The engine noise (which is horrid, though it's the whine that does my ears in) has nothing to do with the ride which is unrivalled in any current or past UK rolling stock. If you've ever been in one with an engine out it's serene - super-smooth and near silent. Try a ride on the Far North if you don't believe me, they just glide along at speed on terrible jointed track.

 

[43096]

You must be mad. Every time I take a 159 it’s vibrating like the world’s largest iPhone on full ringer.

I don’t think you understand what ride quality is.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The engine noise (which is horrid, though it's the whine that does my ears in) has nothing to do with the ride which is unrivalled in any current or past UK rolling stock. If you've ever been in one with an engine out it's serene - super-smooth and near silent. Try a ride on the Far North if you don't believe me, they just glide along at speed on terrible jointed track.

Actually I'll give you that, as I did have a 159 out of Waterloo with the engine out earlier in the year and it wasn't bad, though psychologically confusing to the senses - eerily silent.

Going back to the topic at hand, I will be keen to see the 805/807s in the Avanti livery. I wonder if they'll apply stupid clashes-of-colour liveries to those too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2022 ==

I don’t think you understand what ride quality is.

I do very much understand what ride quality is, but whether or not the train runs smoothly on the tracks is of no relevance to me if the engine causing the carriage vibrate so much that I can’t relax and enjoy it.

 

[D365]

I do very much understand what ride quality is, but whether or not the train runs smoothly on the tracks is of no relevance to me if the engine causing the carriage vibrate so much that I can’t relax and enjoy it.

It’s a resonant frequency caused by that particular engine. For example, I’ve found that the ’idle’ vibrations in some Class 22x are a lot worse than others.

 

[Some guy]

Are the 807’s still going to sign to Blackpool north?

 

[Richard Scott]

The 158 is close to it.

But back on topic, if you've ever had a 350 at 110mph on the fasts, you could almost stand a 10p coin on end on the table - it's German levels of smooth with almost no movement at all even at the vehicle ends, the slows are much rougher. I think therefore that there won't be any sort of ride issues with these 80x.

German levels of smooth, thought you'd been on lots of their units, many no better than UK built units and some quite poor?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

German levels of smooth, thought you'd been on lots of their units, many no better than UK built units and some quite poor?!

I've always found Siemens build quality to be superb. The 350/1s, having received new seat fabric and a general tidy up, still look brand new despite being old enough to go to the pub - yes, they are 18 years old - I was shocked when I just checked, I thought they were from about 2010 . The ride can be hard, but on high quality track like the WCML fasts they're smooth as silk (they also seem to ride slightly better at 110 than 100, I think it's similarly said Mk4s ride better at 140 than 125, though not many people have had chance to do that). They're not faultless, but here on the south WCML we love them, you very rarely see a complaint other than if a /2 turns up, and that's nowt to do with build quality, and not even everyone hates those judging by where people sit on a pair or 12-car with a choice of unit type. While Bombardier have improved with the Aventras compared to the slightly cheap *Stars, I don't think many people here think the 730s are going to be an improvement even with the awful proposed 3+2 seating in the bin where it belongs.

Back to topic, though, I find Hitachi come quite close though not quite there in terms of build quality. But overall the experience of travelling on an 80x to me is very similar to the experience of travelling on a 444, i.e. an end doored Desiro, and a 385 is incredibly similar to a 350 and also built quite well. So as I'd for a long time been calling for a "Class 344", I overall quite like them, much as the Sophia isn't my favourite seat. I genuinely look forward to using these, particularly as they're going with what is to me an excellent seat (in a very low density layout, too, it seems), and am quite pleased that the plan is for two of the three Avanti services calling at MKC (the Liverpool and the Brum semifast) to be 807s. And on the high quality WCML fasts they'll ride well, too.

 

[The Planner]

Are the 807’s still going to sign to Blackpool north?

No, only 805s in the plan. 807s are West Mids/Liverpool only.

 

[Halish Railway]

No, only 805s in the plan. 807s are West Mids/Liverpool only.

I’d assume that this is to allow for the continuation of joining/splitting Blackpool and Chester to London trains. Also since 805s and 807s are pretty much the same train, vice the former being bi-mode, I don’t see much of an issue with using 807s on the infrequent Blackpool to London via Trent Valley services if they ever come back.

 

[AL1]

The contracts for the 805 and 807 will specify in detail the projected mileage ( within bands) and the depots that said trains are to be maintained at . Furthermore, there is likely to be a performance contract regarding unit availability, which swings around to where and when units are serviced, and hence diagrammed.

The WCML timetable is built around the Avanti timetable service plans and the accompanying fleet plan. The two are closely interconnected and form part of Avanti’s contracts with the DfT.

The DfT could clearly change the usage, but that would require some considerable decoupling. It is clear that the 805 and 807 will only work on the Chester/North Wales; Liverpool via South Parkway and Birmingham. Once HS2 opens then I guess the opportunity to reallocate to other destinations can be taken.

 

[Some guy]

No, only 805s in the plan. 807s are West Mids/Liverpool only.

That would make sense at the morning 5:30 Blackpool to Euston is returning and that normally joins with a Holyhead service at Crewe as a voyager so they’ll do it as a 10 car from there

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That would make sense at the morning 5:30 Blackpool to Euston is returning and that normally joins with a Holyhead service at Crewe as a voyager so they’ll do it as a 10 car from there

221s call at Poulton and Kirkham, whereas the 390s don't.
I don't know if 807s could call if used - that might be another reason to use an 805 on certain Blackpool services.

 

[Some guy]

221s call at Poulton and Kirkham, whereas the 390s don't.
I don't know if 807s could call if used - that might be another reason to use an 805 on certain Blackpool services.

Yeah an 805 would have to be the case to make it a 10 car set from Crewe. The 805 should easily fit in both kirkham and poulton. Also it is odd the late 17:07 service from Euston to Blackpool doesn’t serve kirkham or poulton

 

[htmtrains]

Will the Avanti 80x have buffet cars? Or go trolley only like GWR?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will the Avanti 80x have buffet cars? Or go trolley only like GWR?

Buffet counters I believe.

 

[htmtrains]

Buffet counters I believe.

Thanks.

 

[Class15]

Didn’t expect to see this!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously it being pathed as that doesn't mean it will be that! I'd expect a Pendolino can do 80x timings easily enough.

Which service(s) did you find that on?

 

[Class15]

Obviously it being pathed as that doesn't mean it will be that! I'd expect a Pendolino can do 80x timings easily enough.

Which service(s) did you find that on?

Can’t remember but it seems to be the case with all London-Liverpool services!!!

 

[hexagon789]

Didn’t expect to see this!

Obviously it being pathed as that doesn't mean it will be that! I'd expect a Pendolino can do 80x timings easily enough.

Which service(s) did you find that on?

I believe it was mentioned a couple of months back, when the provisional WCML December timetable was being discussed. All Euston/Liverpool (bar about two each way) are now using 80x timings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe it was mentioned a couple of months back, when the provisional WCML December timetable was being discussed. All Euston/Liverpool are timed for 80x.

Interesting, I always thought the existing service would be 9.390 and the new one 807. Is the plan for both services to be 807 if the second one ever starts? If they stick with one I can't see the capacity downgrade working.

That would explain why the Liverpool is timed 31 minutes Euston-MKC but the Manchester still 30. I did wonder!

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting, I always thought the existing service would be 9.390 and the new one 807. Is the plan for both services to be 807 if the second one ever starts?

I believe that is the intention - I haven't seen anything to state that isn't the intention anymore.

I can think of several reasons behind the current use of 80x timings for the Liverpools, but I don't which if any would be the correct one.

Perhaps one of the forum members involved with planning may be able to cast some insight?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

Here is the first, of a number, of posts re the Liverpools running to 80x timings from December -

December 2022 Timetable Changes

The Avantis to from Euston to Glasgow via West Midlands seem to be back at long last! But retimed slightly later south-bound, breaking the connection with the hourly XC services to Oxford/Reading/South Coast, which is rather annoying.

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