West Coast Franchise

[TomJ93]

It was a little tongue in cheek, do I hope I didn't offend

I do call them Pendos, and 220s tins, speaks for itself really.

 

[Ivo]

Where does "220s tins" come from? Is it solely to do with their similarity and common operation to actual 220s, or something else?

Good name either way

 

[TomJ93]

 

[Pumbaa]

Coventry doesn't get 3tph in its own right, but it would be pointless not to stop there.

Like Leicester only gets 4tph )) for the same reason

Franchise spec; the franchise requires them to provide 3tph from Coventry and to Coventry from London, so they do. Any extra paths for 2012 onwards could omit Conventry as a stop.

Will we be able to find out what each bidder has bought to the table?

We get the shortlist in just under a month. You won't know till the bidding process is over who promised what, and thats only if they share it. The only thing you're guaranteed to learn is what the winning bidder promised.

 

[Zoe]

Franchise spec; the franchise requires them to provide 3tph from Coventry and to Coventry from London, so they do. Any extra paths for 2012 onwards could omit Conventry as a stop.

There wouldn't be much point not stopping at Coventry as it's such a large destination. FGW wouldn't consider not stopping at Reading. In 2004 - 2006 almost all of the services that didn't stop there had Reading calls added.

 

[Pumbaa]

Which takes 1hr 45 min, as apposed to VT which took 1hr.

Can't see why the VT Chester/North Wales services don't stop at Nuneaton, & maybe Stafford, as well as Crewe, with the VT Liverpool train calling at Crewe instead of Stafford.

With the current TT, it can't call at anywhere else south of Stafford without pinching the following train on the arse. The services with extra stops at Nuneaton (2 currently) all have the following service also making an extra stop south of Colwich to balance each other out.

Crewe already has 2tph to London, and 2tph to Liverpool. I don't think it needs a third to Liverpool, a third to London would however be good. On the current timetable, it can't. It was desired, but in both directions there is no space at Crewe.

I'm surprised they still do, considering there is a direct London Midland service to London. Personally I think Stafford, Nuneaton and Tamworth all deserve fast intercity services to London but I don't think Virgin Trains would agree.

I also disagree. Stafford has a healthy loading, and higher usage to boot than both of the others. I would agree though that if the extra service to Lancaster/Blackpool starts, Nuneaton/Lichfield/Tamworth should be served at least bi-hourly.

I am always surprised that the Birmingham to Scotland does not call at Stafford, maybe that one would be better as it is presumably going through a lot slower than the London train which will not stop until Warrington/Preston.

It can't without throwing things into a mess. If it called, it would knock the LM stopper out of its path to Norton Bridge, thus also messing up the LM from Liverpool which crosses Norton Bridge a few minutes after it. Moving the LM through Stoke isn't desirable either, it can already delay the following express from Stoke as it turns off at Kidsgrove if only running a few minutes late.

It does however call at Crewe where connections from Stafford are available.

True - 2tph is plenty. I'm still in favour of double tracking through Alsager, and introducing a Stafford - Liverpool all shacks, running Stafford, Stone, Stoke, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, South Parkway, West Allerton, Mossley Hill, Lime St. Good chance to increase local connections across NW.

 

[Statto]

True - 2tph is plenty. I'm still in favour of double tracking through Alsager, and introducing a Stafford - Liverpool all shacks, running Stafford, Stone, Stoke, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, South Parkway, West Allerton, Mossley Hill, Lime St. Good chance to increase local connections across NW.

I agree doubling the track between Crewe & Kidsgrove, could the LM Crewe-Euston stopper be extended to Liverpool.

Come to think of it, one idea could be in extending the LM Crewe-Euston stopper to Manchester Airport & maybe Deansgate, rather than Liverpool, replacing the existing the Northern Rail service Manchester Airport-Crewe, giving Passengers from Towns/Citys South of Manchester Airport, better axcess to Man Air.

 

[Blindtraveler]

i dont want DB! Ariva have made a journey on XC a horrid unpleasent experience which there parent company are letting continue and a similar thing would no doubt happen on west coast. Give it to virgin again with a commitment to phase out voyagers and introduce same service offering, longer trains and cheeper tikets on Scotland bhm as scotland London gets also put plans in place for Manchester to go back to Virgin at end of TPE's franchise and also for a cupple of EDB-BHM trains to run through to Euston giving Scotland passengers additional services to Euston over and above the sleaper. In addition, a dragged 9 car pendo running ABD-BHM once a day, resoring that link would be good but run it Via Stirling so it can serve more cities and dont bother with calls between Dundee and ABD.

 

[tbtc]

i dont want DB! Ariva have made a journey on XC a horrid unpleasent experience

Give it to virgin again

Was it Arriva who introduced the Voyagers or was it Virgin? Why are you blaming Arriva?

In addition, a dragged 9 car pendo running ABD-BHM once a day, resoring that link would be good but run it Via Stirling so it can serve more cities and dont bother with calls between Dundee and ABD.

Run Edinburgh - Stirling - Dundee to take more time and also not serve the stations in Fife/ Angus/ Grampian?

 

[Blindtraveler]

not blaming ariva for the voyagers themselves but 6re there lack of customer service, poor catering etc. The voyagers, hate them as some of us may would, probbably, be ok with virgin type enhancements to phone reception, better seats and perhaps 1 disabled loo qemoved in favour of a smaller 1 to create tipup seats for shorter trips? units like this in my opinion would be ifal on services like edinburgh aberdeen, birminiam stanstead, etc. thats my thoughts anyway, discuss the

Was it Arriva who introduced the Voyagers or was it Virgin? Why are you blaming Arriva?



Run Edinburgh - Stirling - Dundee to take more time and also not serve the stations in Fife/ Angus/ Grampian?

 

[Pumbaa]

I agree doubling the track between Crewe & Kidsgrove, could the LM Crewe-Euston stopper be extended to Liverpool.

Come to think of it, one idea could be in extending the LM Crewe-Euston stopper to Manchester Airport & maybe Deansgate, rather than Liverpool, replacing the existing the Northern Rail service Manchester Airport-Crewe, giving Passengers from Towns/Citys South of Manchester Airport, better axcess to Man Air.

That is due to be happening anyway in May 2012; the Crewe - Euston gets extended to Liverpool, and one of the Liverpool - Brum gets diverted to do Preston - Brum, with a timetabled connection at Crewe for pax from Brum to transfer to the Liverpool train and vice versa.

If memory serves correctly, xx34 from Liverpool becomes the Euston train, calling at St Parkway, Runcorn, Hartford, Crewe before having an almighty stupidly long stop and continuing to Stafford in the current xx33 path from Crewe via Stoke. LM want this as they want to route it via Stoke, as its the only way they can get away with it (claiming that the extension is to create a Stoke - Liverpool market rather than a second Liverpool - London market). NR are arguing that it should run direct to Stafford, and instead re-route the remaining Brum - Liverpool train via Stoke instead to meet this market. We will know the outcome this December. I sincerely hope NR win this toss!

 

[Statto]

That is due to be happening anyway in May 2012; the Crewe - Euston gets extended to Liverpool, and one of the Liverpool - Brum gets diverted to do Preston - Brum, with a timetabled connection at Crewe for pax from Brum to transfer to the Liverpool train and vice versa.

If memory serves correctly, xx34 from Liverpool becomes the Euston train, calling at St Parkway, Runcorn, Hartford, Crewe before having an almighty stupidly long stop and continuing to Stafford in the current xx33 path from Crewe via Stoke. LM want this as they want to route it via Stoke, as its the only way they can get away with it (claiming that the extension is to create a Stoke - Liverpool market rather than a second Liverpool - London market). NR are arguing that it should run direct to Stafford, and instead re-route the remaining Brum - Liverpool train via Stoke instead to meet this market. We will know the outcome this December. I sincerely hope NR win this toss!

As there are already 2t an hour Liverpool-Brum, rerouting one of them via Stoke is my preferred change, rather than the Euston stopper, with the Euston Stopper running direct Crewe-Stafford. I don't think there's a need for a Liverpool-Euston stopper.

Lol,Top Gear could do a challange, the car v the LM Euston-Liverpool stopper

As i've mentioned i'd rather the currant Euston-Crewe stopper was extended to Man Air, replacing the Northern Rail, Man Air-Crewe, opening up direct services to Man Air from Stoke & Stafford.

 

[The Planner]

May 2012 isn't happening. All one timetable past the Olympics.

 

[tbtc]

i'd rather the currant Euston-Crewe stopper was extended to Man Air, replacing the Northern Rail, Man Air-Crewe, opening up direct services to Man Air from Stoke & Stafford.

I like the sound of that one, opens up Manchester Airport to a lot of places further south

 

[Invincibles]

Do people really care about ten minutes when they're travelling for two or more hours? And if they do, they can just book on the faster train - goodness me, there are three trains an hour to Manchester - you aren't seriously suggesting there's no scope to have at least one of them stop a little more?

And while they would no longer be able to claim every one of their trains follows the 'headline' journey time (and to be honest, I'm not sure they all do even now!), they could make the far more exciting claim that they're offering all sorts of new direct journey opportunities for passengers up and down the West Coast - even by only slowing down one or two services an hour across the whole Virgin network!

I do not buy that argument.

The point is you can go to Manchester Piccadilly and get a fast train to London every 20 minutes.

If you are a business needing flexibility that is something of a selling point.

Maybe it is not why the train has such a large share of the market, but it has to be one of the main reasons.

By all means add a slow train (as suggested above with the Birmingham being extended) but messing around with the main selling points seems foolish IMO.

 

[Zoe]

The point is you can go to Manchester Piccadilly and get a fast train to London every 20 minutes.

Irrelevant in most cases as the walk-on fares are so expensive you have to book in advance. You can run a train every 5 minutes if you want but if you book in advance you are restricted to a single train.

 

[Pumbaa]

I don't think there's a need for a Liverpool-Euston stopper.

Sadly for you - Liverpool to stations south of Stafford is the biggest market to have opened up since the TV service started, other than Stone - Stoke. (Source - LM paperwork in front of me).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

May 2012 isn't happening. All one timetable past the Olympics.

Thanks for that!

 

[Statto]

Sadly for you - Liverpool to stations south of Stafford is the biggest market to have opened up since the TV service started, other than Stone - Stoke. (Source - LM paperwork in front of me).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thanks for that!

I know theres a need for a TV stopper service, but i'd prefere to extend the currant TV stopper service to Man Air, rather than Liverpool.

 

[Zoe]

I know theres a need for a TV stopper service, but i'd prefere to extend the currant TV stopper service to Man Air, rather than Liverpool.

Wouldn't extending it to either destination conflict with moderation of competition?

 

[MCR247]

Isn't that why it is 2012? End of Virgin franchise?

 

[tbtc]

Isn't that why it is 2012? End of Virgin franchise?

According to the Mayans, it'll be the end of the world too

 

[MCR247]

As long as a pendolino is the last train I travel on I don't care

When do advance tickets for New Years Eve come out....? :roll:

 

[Zoe]

According to the Mayans, it'll be the end of the world too

That's 21 December 2012. I believe the new franchise starts before then.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

But 3 trains an hour? The same as Manchester?
Liverpool only gets 1
Bristol gets 1 or 2 I think
Leicester 3
Sheffield 2

Please don't think I'm ungrateful, I think we get a fantastic service but i'm surprised it has been sacrificed to shave off a couple of minutes off of the New Street service.

Bristol gets 2tph to Temple Meads and 2tph seperately to Pakway
Leicester has 4, two of which are non-stop.

 

[Pumbaa]

Wouldn't extending it to either destination conflict with moderation of competition?

MoC is lifted in part form from May 2011, with the remainder being lifted in May 2012. To this end, the LM services can start from May 2012. See ORR for details. Planner has indicated this will now be Dec 2012.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know theres a need for a TV stopper service, but i'd prefere to extend the currant TV stopper service to Man Air, rather than Liverpool.

What you'd prefer and what is the best option is necessarily the same. Higher benefits are to be had extending it through to Liverpool rather than Man Airport.

 

[harz99]

A proper Anglo Scottish service provided at Lockerbie, and new seat cushions in the Pendo/Voyager units.

 

[Zoe]

A proper Anglo Scottish service provided at Lockerbie, and new seat cushions in the Pendo/Voyager units.

I'm surprised Virgin stop at Lockerbie at all, I wouldn't have thought it warrented an intercity service.

 

[Philip]

Well there has been talk of a 4th tph between Manchester Piccadilly and Euston, although the 11 car Pendolinos may yet be the solution instead of. According to the MEN some Piccadilly platforms will need extending to accomodate the longer trains so that's why a 4th train is being muted for 2012. However this would mean another completely new timetable and all the chaos that would bring like the December 08 one did.

If this goes ahead, then Wilmslow would possibly bring potential by stopping 2 tph there, the hourly is already very well used and getting busier! If it stays at 3 tph then I'd be tempted to re-route the current :23 Stockport-Stoke flyer by having it call: Stockport, Wilmslow, Milton Keynes, Euston - as well as keeping the current :55 off Piccadilly as it is, thus reducing Stoke's London frequency to one Virgin and one LM.

Are Shrewsbury or Telford really crying out for a direct London service anymore than places like Blackpool, Blackburn, Bolton, Middlesbrough are?

 

[WatcherZero]

Its why GMPTE isnt in favour of 4tph Manchester services surprisingly, they think it would cause chaos and interfere with local services. They instead favour more Wigan services.

 

[Philip]

Its why GMPTE isnt in favour of 4tph Manchester services surprisingly, they think it would cause chaos and interfere with local services. They instead favour more Wigan services.

Tbh Manchester to Wigan and to Bolton and Preston more so is badly overcrowded and is getting worse. More trains off platform 14 towards Bolton are definitely needed - and longer trains. Salford Crescent is also struggling to cope with passengers now. TPE removed Salford from its stopping pattern on their WCML services 2 years back, so now there's a much bigger crowd waiting on the platform whenever a Piccadilly service is due - even around lunchtime.