Invalid Routing? BRIGHTON-WOOLSTON Not London

[LondonJohn]

I have been travelling on an Off Peak Return between Brighton and WOOLSTON route not London restriction code 4B for many years now and usually travel short and use the ticket between Clapham Junction and Southampton and return.

With a Network card this is currently &21.30. Occasionally I’ll buy an add on between Waterloo and Clapham in one or both directions

On a journey in November both outward and return journeys were significantly delayed. 75 mins and 35 mins, I submitted 2 delay repay claims and both kept being rejected invalid ticket duplicate claim. (Because I’d inadvertently started another claim as opposed to appeal) I called South Western Rsileay and the helpful agent logged a case when I explained to her the problems I had and she created a case for me.

I do the journey monthly and have had several days this year and all delay repay claims processed successfully some via appeal.


I’ve just had a letter back from SWR saying the ticket I have is not valid for travel via Clapham Junction and is only valid via Fareham like the Barnham Touting. SWR advise their pricing team will take this up with Southern”s pricing and routing team and say I need any any permitted route ticket between Brighton and Southampton if I want to travel via Clapham Junction with a separate ticket to/from WOOLSTON as this is where the routing and pricing anomaly is.

Is what SWR saying correct?

I’ve found out that a SWR Duper Off Peak return with a railcard from Waterloo to Southampton is £26.40 and this is marginally cheaper than the ticket I have with the Clapham Waterloo add ons but it’s more restrictive in times so not an ideal replacement.

As a gesture of goodwill SWR sent rail travel vouchers for pretty much what the delay repay would be as they recognise the inconvenience caused by delays and unintentional use of incorrect tickets in a complex routing/pricing environment.

 

[yorkie]

SWR are correct, it's not valid, as far as I can determine.

If it was valid, then using such a loophole ticket and then claiming Delay Repay is a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted.

Also some train companies have asked customers to send back Delay Repay monies, in situations where it later transpired that the claims were not valid, so another reason to be extra careful.

If I am using a loophole ticket and get delayed, I tend not to claim Delay Repay; doing so puts the loophole at risk and can create all sorts of problems.

 

[miklcct]

If it was valid, then using such a loophole ticket and then claiming Delay Repay is a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted.

What is the problem of claiming Delay Repay using a valid loophole ticket? Why is it a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted?

In the past I also claimed Delay Repay using a ticket starting short on an abnormal routing, which was also on South Western Railway on a ticket priced by Southern, backed by an itinerary from the retailer to confirm it was valid, and after appealing it was paid out successfully.

 

[yorksrob]

Just to add, I wouldn't call route Barnham a "loophole" as the intended journeys it enables along the South Coast are often a good alternative in their own right.

 

[Hadders]

What is the problem of claiming Delay Repay using a valid loophole ticket? Why is it a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted?

In the past I also claimed Delay Repay using a ticket starting short on an abnormal routing, which was also on South Western Railway on a ticket priced by Southern, backed by an itinerary from the retailer to confirm it was valid, and after appealing it was paid out successfully.

Although the loophole ticket might technically be valid the rail company might not intend it to be valid. Once you draw attention to it by claiming delay repay, or posting details about it on this forum, the loophole is highly likely to be fixed (and not in the passengers favour).

There is a loophole fare I regularly use. I will never disclose details about it on here or ever claim delay repay or even complain about the ticket to a train company as it would give then the opportunity to fix the anomaly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just to add, I wouldn't call route Barnham a "loophole" as the intended journeys it enables along the South Coast are often a good alternative in their own right.

I don’t think anyone has actually suggested “Via Barnham” is a loophole.

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t think anyone has actually suggested “Via Barnham” is a loophole.

That's a relief then !

 

[Haywain]

What is the problem of claiming Delay Repay using a valid loophole ticket? Why is it a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted?

Because it draws the attention of the train company to the ticket and how it is being used - or, in their eyes, misused. That's how loopholes get closed.

 

[yorkie]

What is the problem of claiming Delay Repay using a valid loophole ticket? Why is it a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted?

Bringing such tickets to the attention of pricing managers isn't a great idea.

In the past I also claimed Delay Repay using a ticket starting short on an abnormal routing, which was also on South Western Railway on a ticket priced by Southern, backed by an itinerary from the retailer to confirm it was valid, and after appealing it was paid out successfully.

Evidence of a loophole being valid does not in any way mean that it won't be closed.

Even non loophole tickets can be at risk; some train operators will seek to prevent the use of any ticket via their services if they think that the use of such tickets will be detrimental to their finances. We have seen that happen so many times over the years.

Anyway in this case, it's not a loophole as it's not valid.

 

[LondonJohn]

Interesting comments as I’m pretty sure it was suggested here that was the way to do it when I asked previously

I’ve not had any problems previously buying the ticket at Waterloo or with ticket inspections on the train or by barrier staff at Southampton and indeed the ticket opened the barriers at Clapham Junction when either starting or finishing my journey short. I’d have thought if a ticket wasn’t valid via that station it wouldn’t open the gate line.

That said I see a Brighton to Southampton off peak return with a railcard is £21.10 and National Rail shows this fare as being valid Brighton to Clapham Junction to Southampton.

 

[4COR]

Was there ever a route that "00700 NOT VIA LONDON" was valid on that didn't go via Barnham (for which the "VIA BARNHAM" ticket is valid and cheaper)? CW is the only map for the Portsmouth to Brighton Groups, so there's no other way of doing it from the looks? (The ticket restrictions look the same as well)

 

[miklcct]

Because it draws the attention of the train company to the ticket and how it is being used - or, in their eyes, misused. That's how loopholes get closed.

I understand, but when money is at stake I will try to squeeze every penny out of the ticketing system as long as what I am doing is valid regardless if it is doing a social harm or not. Delay Repay is a compensation for poor performance of the railway and if the computer says no, a human has to look at it.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting comments as I’m pretty sure it was suggested here that was the way to do it when I asked previously

I’ve not had any problems previously buying the ticket at Waterloo or with ticket inspections on the train or by barrier staff at Southampton and indeed the ticket opened the barriers at Clapham Junction when either starting or finishing my journey short.

Maybe it was; I don't have access to a historical routeing guide checker and it would be rather time consuming to check manually. If any software developers here would be interested in developing such a program, that would be rather useful!

I’d have thought if a ticket wasn’t valid via that station it wouldn’t open the gate line.

Gatelines do not check the routeing guide.

That said I see a Brighton to Southampton off peak return with a railcard is £21.10 and National Rail shows this fare as being valid Brighton to Clapham Junction to Southampton.

It is valid, although it's the sort of fare SWR would no doubt want to get rid of.

However this particular fare has been very well publicised, so if it was going to be changed it would have gone years ago. It's the sort of fare that gets quoted by people who promote a form of fares reform that would put prices up (I've seen people argue that such fares are too cheap; my argument would be that other fares are too expensive, but that's not a matter we will ever get universal agreement on).

It's odd that Brighton to Southampton has been so heavily publicised and yet remained valid via Clapham Jn, yet as soon as EMR wanted to increase the price of Nottingham to London above that of Newark to London, LNER were happy to partake in the collusion and the DfT allowed them to abolish a perfectly reasonable route. In another example Sheffield to London was valid via Tamworth, but Virgin Trains were unhappy about a pricing error on that flow (that only lasted a week or two) and so invalidated it at the drop of a hat (even preventing the sale of tickets only valid on WMT and XC briefly) and again the DfT did not stop them. Neither of these were actual loopholes but in both cases perfectly reasonable routes were lost.

So, be careful as you never know what TOCs are going to get up to; we cannot rely on the DfT to behave honourably and are very keen to act in a manner that protects TOC revenue rather than defend any passenger rights whatsoever.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2023 ==

I understand, but when money is at stake I will try to squeeze every penny out of the ticketing system as long as what I am doing is valid regardless if it is doing a social harm or not. Delay Repay is a compensation for poor performance of the railway and if the computer says no, a human has to look at it.

In the medium to long term this is a totally false economy and you will find yourself losing out for future journeys.

 

[Hadders]

I understand, but when money is at stake I will try to squeeze every penny out of the ticketing system as long as what I am doing is valid regardless if it is doing a social harm or not. Delay Repay is a compensation for poor performance of the railway and if the computer says no, a human has to look at it.

You don’t get it, do you.

Taking this approach might mean you win a particular battle but in the long run you will lose the war..

 

[Haywain]

I understand, but when money is at stake I will try to squeeze every penny out of the ticketing system as long as what I am doing is valid regardless if it is doing a social harm or not. Delay Repay is a compensation for poor performance of the railway and if the computer says no, a human has to look at it.

Not only is this a potential false economy, as suggested by @yorkie, it's also a very selfish attitude.

 

[Cantab26]

I understand, but when money is at stake I will try to squeeze every penny out of the ticketing system as long as what I am doing is valid regardless if it is doing a social harm or not. Delay Repay is a compensation for poor performance of the railway and if the computer says no, a human has to look at it.

Very public-spirited of you. I’m sure that whenever you seek advice from the forums in the future it will be freely forthcoming…

Getting back on topic, would it be possible for one of the experts to explain why the route taken is not valid?

My general understanding is that Clapham Junction ‘counts’ as London for the purposes of this NOT VIA LONDON flow?

 

[LondonJohn]

I’m mid way through using one of these return tickets and have the return journey to make in January some point. Can I/should I zero excess this to. Brighton Southampton service as I bought the ticket in good faith. I don’t know where I would stand if using the return and find it’s not valid and have a penalty fare or worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2023 ==

Very public-spirited of you. I’m sure that whenever you seek advice from the forums in the future it will be freely forthcoming…

Getting back on topic, would it be possible for one of the experts to explain why the route taken is not valid?

My general understanding is that Clapham Junction ‘counts’ as London for the purposes of this NOT VIA LONDON flow?

Clapham Junction is NOT classed as London and tickets routes Not via London are valid via Clapham. The restriction for the ticket I use is 4B

 

[miklcct]

Very public-spirited of you. I’m sure that whenever you seek advice from the forums in the future it will be freely forthcoming…

Getting back on topic, would it be possible for one of the experts to explain why the route taken is not valid?

My general understanding is that Clapham Junction ‘counts’ as London for the purposes of this NOT VIA LONDON flow?

It is neither a direct train, the shortest route, nor a route in the Routeing Guide.

According to the Routeing Guide, it is neither the shortest route nor within 3 miles within it, and as this is not a local journey, it is not a mapped route. The only Routeing Point which passes the fare check from Woolston is Fareham (Portsmouth Group), and Brighton itself is a Routeing Point. The only mapped route is along the coast, which means that the not via London validity is identical to the via Barnham validity.

 

[4COR]

Getting back on topic, would it be possible for one of the experts to explain why the route taken is not valid?

My general understanding is that Clapham Junction ‘counts’ as London for the purposes of this NOT VIA LONDON flow?

For both the NOT VIA LONDON and VIA BARNHAM routes, the only valid routing points are Fareham (Portsmouth Group) and Brighton Group (everything else fails the fare check).

The Yellow Pages give only map CW (effectively the South Coastway route) between those two routing points - this doesn't allow travel via Clapham Junc. The route via Clapham Junc is not by any stretch within 3 miles of the shortest route either, and there's no direct train by that route.

Clapham Junction is NOT classed as London and tickets routes Not via London are valid via Clapham. The restriction for the ticket I use is 4B

There are lots of stations that aren't classed as London, but as per above though, it's not on a valid route for the ticket held.

 

[JonathanH]

Just for reference, the previous thread, from 2013, is here.

Brighton to Woolston route Not London

I have been using this ticket for a year or so know when I travel from Waterloo to Woolston. I have an annual paper travelcard Wimbledon to London Zones 1-3 which covers the Clapham Junction to Waterloo section of the journey. I normally buy my tickets online and collect from a TVM and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[yorkie]

Just for reference, the previous thread, from 2013, is here.

Brighton to Woolston route Not London

I have been using this ticket for a year or so know when I travel from Waterloo to Woolston. I have an annual paper travelcard Wimbledon to London Zones 1-3 which covers the Clapham Junction to Waterloo section of the journey. I normally buy my tickets online and collect from a TVM and...

www.railforums.co.uk

The original poster @LondonJohn asserts it's valid but there isn't any explanation as to why it's valid and the question is never actually asked; while no-one questions the validity, it may simply be the case that people simply accepted the assertion at face value.

I don't think you can conclude from that thread definitively whether or not the ticket was valid at that time; it may or may not have been valid previously, but there is no easy way (that I know of) to check the routeing guide historically. If any software developers are interested in developing software to do this, I would encourage them to get in touch.

The original post in this thread states that the ticket was used for a journey to Southampton, but Southampton is not an appropriate routeing point as it fails the fares check; as a general rule that would be unlikely to have changed, as this is based on NFM64 (1996) data. However without fully analysing all the data at the time, it's not possible to say definitively what the rules were at any given time.

 

[Cantab26]

For both the NOT VIA LONDON and VIA BARNHAM routes, the only valid routing points are Fareham (Portsmouth Group) and Brighton Group (everything else fails the fare check).

The Yellow Pages give only map CW (effectively the South Coastway route) between those two routing points - this doesn't allow travel via Clapham Junc. The route via Clapham Junc is not by any stretch within 3 miles of the shortest route either, and there's no direct train by that route.

Thanks very much; this is a very clear summary.

 

[RJ]

Interesting comments as I’m pretty sure it was suggested here that was the way to do it when I asked previously

I’ve not had any problems previously buying the ticket at Waterloo or with ticket inspections on the train or by barrier staff at Southampton and indeed the ticket opened the barriers at Clapham Junction when either starting or finishing my journey short. I’d have thought if a ticket wasn’t valid via that station it wouldn’t open the gate line.

It works both ways with the railways, sometimes invalid tickets are accepted and sometimes valid tickets are not accepted. A lot of inspection staff still work under the erstwhile any reasonable route rule as it’s not practical or easy to check permitted routes. Them passing the ticket doesn’t necessarily mean it is valid. It sounds like SWR identified the price was worthy of further investigation, had that check carried out and came to the correct conclusion.

If you are using a ticket that undercuts the price of shorter journeys it’s good practice to check the permitted routes periodically as they can change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

What is the problem of claiming Delay Repay using a valid loophole ticket? Why is it a recipe for getting the ticket further restricted?

In the past I also claimed Delay Repay using a ticket starting short on an abnormal routing, which was also on South Western Railway on a ticket priced by Southern, backed by an itinerary from the retailer to confirm it was valid, and after appealing it was paid out successfully.

There isn’t a problem if you’re happy to have them stop you using those tickets by changing the validity as a direct consequence of you drawing extra attention to it

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
Tickets between Brighton and Portsmouth Group stations are only valid along the coast via Barnham. (Map CW).
Tickets between Brighton and Southampton Group stations have more mapped routes. There are a variety of fares that can be traced out using these mapped routes.
I have always had the view that "Not London" meant it was perfectly OK to go via Clapham Junction as it was a route that could be traced out on maps LB+SW. I've used this routing extensively for years without fuss or bother.


However, if you were concerned about having explicit validity, perhaps it would be worth getting the train from Haywards Heath as opposed to Brighton.
Brfares shows the Haywards Heath <--> Southampton flow has three very clearly defined and understood routes, each with quite sensible price differentials. They are:
ANY PERMITTED (With Maltese Cross)
Route CLAPHM J NOT LDN
Route VIA BARNHAM

The Southampton SuperOffPeak return from Brighton is £32, from Haywards Heath it's £33. Yes it's more but it has the explicit validity via Clapham Junction and that might be useful if you expect trouble with Delay Repay claims...

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[yorkie]

Hi there,
Tickets between Brighton and Portsmouth Group stations are only valid along the coast via Barnham. (Map CW).
Tickets between Brighton and Southampton Group stations have more mapped routes. There are a variety of fares that can be traced out using these mapped routes.
I have always had the view that "Not London" meant it was perfectly OK to go via Clapham Junction as it was a route that could be traced out on maps LB+SW. I've used this routing extensively for years without fuss or bother.

Yes from Southampton that is absolutely fine.

It's not valid that way from Woolston though.

The Southampton SuperOffPeak return from Brighton is £32, from Haywards Heath it's £33. Yes it's more but it has the explicit validity via Clapham Junction and that might be useful if you expect trouble with Delay Repay claims...

I agree that paying just £1 extra for explicit validity may be worth doing. But providing the ticket is valid there is no tangible benefit to doing so, other than the potential benefit of possibly avoiding an argument and hassle.

 

[Sebastian O]

What a foolish thing to appeal and challenge - saving over £1700 a year and arguing they aren’t getting pennies back on a claim! Bye bye nice discount..!

 

[class68fan]

It is design to trap people. Some Not London are valid via Clapham others not then another price via Barnham what is the only? valid route.

 

[Watershed]

It is design to trap people. Some Not London are valid via Clapham others not then another price via Barnham what is the only? valid route.

There's no conspiracy, simply cock-up. No-one has clocked that the 'not via London' fare is pointless and should either be re-routed Clapham Jn not London, or deleted entirely.

 

[miklcct]

There's no conspiracy, simply cock-up. No-one has clocked that the 'not via London' fare is pointless and should either be re-routed Clapham Jn not London, or deleted entirely.

Some not London tickets from SWR land to Brighton are valid via Woking, Guildford and Redhill which can sometimes be time competitive with changing at Clapham Junction. Routing them via Clapham Junction will prevent the use on this route.

 

[Cantab26]

Some not London tickets from SWR land to Brighton are valid via Woking, Guildford and Redhill which can sometimes be time competitive with changing at Clapham Junction. Routing them via Clapham Junction will prevent the use on this route.

Irrelevant - changing the route for this flow doesn’t mean that every other flow needs to be changed as well.