Conversion of Ukraine railways to standard gauge.

[Vespa]

As per my title considering the infrastructure damage, Russian threat and post war recovery.

I have noted that Ukraine railway is currently running on Russian gauge, since many of the network is damaged and the required rebuild, Ukrainian victory will eventually happen, history has shown occupying a hostile country never ends well, once this occurs minds will turn to reconstruction.

It would be a clean slate, there are many advantages for this, preventing future Russian forces using Ukraine networks (a strategic imperative), economic and trading connection to the western network, for easier export of wheat, sunflower oil, eventually oil and gas once their natural resources have tapped, mentally realigning from the East to the West.

There's a few standard gauge lines to Liviv and freight terminals just inside Ukraine and vice versa, there's also bogie changing stations.

This would take time and money.

Thoughts ?

 

[A0]

I'm sure the EU will be offering a few billion Euros of "development funds" to make such a change. Brussels always seems to have a huge pot of money for pet projects.

 

[adamedwards]

I would guess a standard gauge high speed passenger line to Kyiv would be the most viable thing to do first, with Spanish gauge changers and Talgos to other parts of the country.

 

[DanNCL]

I think the border regions with Russia and Belarus would be converted to standard gauge first, as the Russian military relies heavily on rail so converting those lines to standard gauge first would make any future attempts at a new invasion more difficult.
The line through the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone would have to be converted early too, but there'd be limits as to what can be done with that - some of the abandoned trains on the route are radioactively contaminated so nothing can really be done to move or dismantle them.
Potentially conversion of the network in Crimea early on too, although whether that'd be necessary would depend on how much was left of the Kerch Bridge after the war, as if the bridge is completely destroyed there'd be less need to convert Crimea to standard gauge so quickly.

After that, I think most likely would be a high speed line heading west from Kyiv to Lviv, splitting into a Y with one branch to Przemysl to connect with the Polish network and the other to Chop to connect with the Hungarian and Slovak networks. Such a change would allow EuroCity workings more easily too, I think certainly we'd be seeing the Budapest - Mukachevo service extended to Lviv, likewise the Warsaw - Przemysl services and the Graz - Przemysl EuroCity also both extending to Lviv. Potentially ÖBB would take the opportunity to run a Nightjet to Kyiv from Wien in place of the current UZ through cars too.

Moldova would need to convert to standard gauge too, otherwise they'd be a Russian gauge island completely surrounded by standard gauge countries. That conversion might be easier said than done in Transnistria.

There's a few standard gauge lines to Liviv and freight terminals just inside Ukraine and vice versa, there's also bogie changing stations.

I think you've mixed the Polish and Hungarian borders up. The standard gauge line from Przemysl only goes as far as Mostyska 1, anything going to Lviv requires a bogie change if it's come from West of Przemysl.
The line from Zahony in Hungary to Chop and on to Mukachevo is dual gauge, so is the line from Chop to Korolevo and on to Halmeu in Romania.

 

[Vespa]

I think you've mixed the Polish and Hungarian borders up. The standard gauge line from Przemysl only goes as far as Mostyska 1, anything going to Lviv requires a bogie change if it's come from West of Przemysl.
The line from Zahony in Hungary to Chop and on to Mukachevo is dual gauge, so is the line from Chop to Korolevo and on to Halmeu in Romania.

Easily done ! there is considerable merit in national conversion to standard gauge.

 

[superalbs]

As per my title considering the infrastructure damage, Russian threat and post war recovery.

I have noted that Ukraine railway is currently running on Russian gauge, since many of the network is damaged and the required rebuild, Ukrainian victory will eventually happen, history has shown occupying a hostile country never ends well, once this occurs minds will turn to reconstruction.

It would be a clean slate, there are many advantages for this, preventing future Russian forces using Ukraine networks (a strategic imperative), economic and trading connection to the western network, for easier export of wheat, sunflower oil, eventually oil and gas once their natural resources have tapped, mentally realigning from the East to the West.

There's a few standard gauge lines to Liviv and freight terminals just inside Ukraine and vice versa, there's also bogie changing stations.

This would take time and money.

Thoughts ?

Are you sure? There were plans some time ago to build a standard gauge line to just outside Lviv (to Skynliv, next to the fairly central airport), but there's nothing there at the moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2022 ==

I would guess a standard gauge high speed passenger line to Kyiv would be the most viable thing to do first, with Spanish gauge changers and Talgos to other parts of the country.

Please no. They are bad enough in Kazakhstan, we don't need them infecting Ukraine's railways too.

Stadler offer gauge changing sleepers too, and whilst they haven't entered service yet, I'm sure they'd be nicer than a Talgo.

 

[Trainlog]

I knew the Baltic lines where converted to Standard gauge by the Germans during operation Barborossa, where the Ukrainian ones also temporarily converted also?

 

[popeter45]

their is currently one standard guage line into Ukraine that goes as far as Kovel
line from Kovel to Kyiv seems pretty straight apart from one arkward junction but could see it as a early contender to be convertred to a standard guage line for Warsaw-Kyiv services without need to change Gauge

 

[superalbs]

their is currently one standard guage line into Ukraine that goes as far as Kovel
line from Kovel to Kyiv seems pretty straight apart from one arkward junction but could see it as a early contender to be convertred to a standard guage line for Warsaw-Kyiv services without need to change Gauge

There is also Zahony to Mukachevo.

 

[Chester1]

I would guess a standard gauge high speed passenger line to Kyiv would be the most viable thing to do first, with Spanish gauge changers and Talgos to other parts of the country.

If Ukraine were a normal country this would be the right strategy. If lines are converted the choice will be driven by security. That means prioritising freight over passengers.

I think the border regions with Russia and Belarus would be converted to standard gauge first, as the Russian military relies heavily on rail so converting those lines to standard gauge first would make any future attempts at a new invasion more difficult.
The line through the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone would have to be converted early too, but there'd be limits as to what can be done with that - some of the abandoned trains on the route are radioactively contaminated so nothing can really be done to move or dismantle them.
Potentially conversion of the network in Crimea early on too, although whether that'd be necessary would depend on how much was left of the Kerch Bridge after the war, as if the bridge is completely destroyed there'd be less need to convert Crimea to standard gauge so quickly.

After that, I think most likely would be a high speed line heading west from Kyiv to Lviv, splitting into a Y with one branch to Przemysl to connect with the Polish network and the other to Chop to connect with the Hungarian and Slovak networks. Such a change would allow EuroCity workings more easily too, I think certainly we'd be seeing the Budapest - Mukachevo service extended to Lviv, likewise the Warsaw - Przemysl services and the Graz - Przemysl EuroCity also both extending to Lviv. Potentially ÖBB would take the opportunity to run a Nightjet to Kyiv from Wien in place of the current UZ through cars too.

Moldova would need to convert to standard gauge too, otherwise they'd be a Russian gauge island completely surrounded by standard gauge countries. That conversion might be easier said than done in Transnistria.


I think you've mixed the Polish and Hungarian borders up. The standard gauge line from Przemysl only goes as far as Mostyska 1, anything going to Lviv requires a bogie change if it's come from West of Przemysl.
The line from Zahony in Hungary to Chop and on to Mukachevo is dual gauge, so is the line from Chop to Korolevo and on to Halmeu in Romania.

I think the EU will fund it and Rail Baltica will be sped up. Its a significant security benefit and has some economic benefits. Its also a middle finger to Russia symbolising the shrinking of the Russian sphere of influence.

I think the conversions will start at the EU border and head east. Starting east and heading west would mean two changes of gauge until the project was completed, adding a significant point of failure. Starting east would hurt Russian logistics but would hurt Ukrainian logistics too.

I don't think high speed lines will be built until the entire network has been converted. I don't think conversion costs will be excessive because there should not need to be gauge clearance work.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I think the EU will fund it and Rail Baltica will be sped up. Its a significant security benefit and has some economic benefits. Its also a middle finger to Russia symbolising the shrinking of the Russian sphere of influence.

Totally. A year ago re-gauging the Ukraine would have been totally pie in the sky but now I would think quite likely, *If* Russia gets pushed out

Russia is heavily using the railway in their occupied areas to resupply direct from Russia itself. If re-gauging had already been undertaken it would have had a significant impact on their logistics.

 

[Chester1]

Totally. A year ago re-gauging the Ukraine would have been totally pie in the sky but now I would think quite likely, *If* Russia gets pushed out

Russia is heavily using the railway in their occupied areas to resupply direct from Russia itself. If re-gauging had already been undertaken it would have had a significant impact on their logistics.

This true of earlier in the war but it doesn’t appear to be making much difference now. The line between Melitipol and Donetsk cities is partially under fire control of Ukrainian army because it runs very close to the front line. The Kerch Bridge now has a single line section thanks to whatever happened a few weeks ago. Ukrainian artillery can reach a long way from west bank of Dneiper. Effectively there are just two routes operationally within Russian occupied Ukraine. From Crimea to Melitipol and from Russia into Donetsk. Had both routes been converted before 2014 most of that would have been converted back by Russia. The only current difference from that scenario is just the section from the border of Crimea to around Melitipol.

The biggest benefit of conversion would have been capacity to export grain. The gauge change is a major bottleneck. There isn't sufficient rail or port capacity in Poland and Baltics to ship all Ukrainian grain out but more could have been shipped if Ukrainian railways had been converted.

One factor in conversion that hasn't been mentioned is that parts of Ukraine are going to be in a late 1945 situation once the war ends. I can't see any of the lines in the south east of Ukraine or Crimea being servicable if the war ends in a full Ukrainian victory. It could well lead to a scaled back standard gauge network with sections of track leading to Russia being dismantled. Lines like Luthansk to Konotopovla are not worth the security risk and should be ripped up before the war is over if the Ukrainian army has opportunity. We don't know what the population of the Donbas (or Crimea) will be of Ukraine retakes it. The Ukrainian government seems to be keen to shift businesses and their workers to the west of Ukraine and if internal refugees want to stay in the west it makes sense to build new homes for them there if their old home has been destroyed. Many pro Russian residents will flee the Donbas prior to a Ukrainian victory.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Effectively there are just two routes operationally within Russian occupied Ukraine. From Crimea to Melitipol and from Russia into Donetsk. Had both routes been converted before 2014 most of that would have been converted back by Russia.

How easy is it to convert the gauge back? I would say it would a significant job especially if the lines had been resleepered with concrete sleepers that would need to be replaced before re-gauging.

But I take your points; most of the lines will be permanently terminated to prevent future transhipping

 

[HSTEd]

How easy is it to convert the gauge back? I would say it would a significant job especially if the lines had been resleepered with concrete sleepers that would need to be replaced before re-gauging.

But I take your points; most of the lines will be permanently terminated to prevent future transhipping

The Germans had units that were attempting to convert Soviet railways during the War on the Eastern Front. It is rather time consuming - especially if you don't want to close the railway in the interim.

 

[Chester1]

The Germans had units that were attempting to convert Soviet railways during the War on the Eastern Front. It is rather time consuming - especially if you don't want to close the railway in the interim.

How easy is it to convert the gauge back? I would say it would a significant job especially if the lines had been resleepered with concrete sleepers that would need to be replaced before re-gauging.

But I take your points; most of the lines will be permanently terminated to prevent future transhipping

Had the Ukrainian network been converted to standard gauge between 1991 and 2014 the Russian government would have had eight years to convert it back. It would have been a priority due to its military importance.

The only "safe" option for lines to Russia is ripping up the track and demolishing every bridge and encouraging building on track bed when they go through settlements. Its not something I would ordinarily advocate but its not worth the risk just for the limited amount of trade likely after the war. If the war ends in a ceasfire rather than a proper peace treaty then its possible there will be no trade between Russia, mirroring the Korean border. I am surprised there are still four lines between Russia and unoccupied Ukraine, especially the two north of Kharkiv. They won't be in a servicable condition though. An exclusion zone near the border is another possibility, with the whole population and all non military infrastructure being removed from within two or three miles of the border.

Conversion from russian gauge shouldn't be cost prohibive. The loading gauge should be fine, along with most signalling and probably overhead wires too. The sleepers and some of the track will need replacing. I am not sure about platforms. Rolling stock will be a significant problem but it is managable over several years, especially if EU supports sale of old EU stock. City metros could be left where feasible and only changed once their rolling stock is reaching the end of its life.

 

[HS2isgood]

Had the Ukrainian network been converted to standard gauge between 1991 and 2014 the Russian government would have had eight years to convert it back. It would have been a priority due to its military importance.

The only "safe" option for lines to Russia is ripping up the track and demolishing every bridge and encouraging building on track bed when they go through settlements. Its not something I would ordinarily advocate but its not worth the risk just for the limited amount of trade likely after the war. If the war ends in a ceasfire rather than a proper peace treaty then its possible there will be no trade between Russia, mirroring the Korean border. I am surprised there are still four lines between Russia and unoccupied Ukraine, especially the two north of Kharkiv. They won't be in a servicable condition though. An exclusion zone near the border is another possibility, with the whole population and all non military infrastructure being removed from within two or three miles of the border.

Conversion from russian gauge shouldn't be cost prohibive. The loading gauge should be fine, along with most signalling and probably overhead wires too. The sleepers and some of the track will need replacing. I am not sure about platforms. Rolling stock will be a significant problem but it is managable over several years, especially if EU supports sale of old EU stock. City metros could be left where feasible and only changed once their rolling stock is reaching the end of its life.

Three of these lines are part of the EU's comprehensive TEN-T, from Kyiv, Kharkiv and Donetsk. As Ukraine is required to keep them to receive EU railway funds, these can't be ripped up. The other links with Russia can be ripped up up from the last relevant town. Only the Chervonopartizansk, Glujov, Krasnodon and Vovchansk lines are worth serving for the Ukrainian side, and the Kharkiv to Belgorod line has a decently busy suburban service in the Ukrainian side and, once things cool off, can be a nice link (80 kilometres, 2 million and 400,000 inhabitants). Except those five lines, which include the 3 TEN-T ones, the rest are better ripped off.

 

[Chester1]

Three of these lines are part of the EU's comprehensive TEN-T, from Kyiv, Kharkiv and Donetsk. As Ukraine is required to keep them to receive EU railway funds, these can't be ripped up.

Under the circumstances I would be surprised if the EU objected to Ukraine - Russia traffic being limited to road, sea and air travel. Even retaining just the three TEN-T lines would enable eight cross border lines (excluding Crimea) to close. Converting every line to standard gauge would take a generation or more so something else also needs to be done to make the logistics of a future Russian invasion more difficult.

After connecting Lviv to the EU network the priority will likely be connecting to Black Sea EU ports. That probably means the lines from Odessa to Moldova and Romania via Budjak. Converting some of the south of the Moldovan network would be very helpful. In the event of another war being able to ship out huge quantities of Ukrainian grain from Romania would be very helpful.

 

[Pete_uk]

Would some of our old EMUs be of any use to them?

 

[Chester1]

Would some of our old EMUs be of any use to them?

I doubt it. Ukraine has lower platforms and their loading gauge would be too big for UK trains. Ukraine will need to modify infrastructure to standard European loading gauge because its the largest source of suitable secondhand units. West of the Dneiper most electrified lines are 25kV AC while east of the Dnieper they are mostly 3kV DC. There are multiple EU countries that have use each type. Its still going to take a generation to do at an affordable cost. Prioritising getting freight to NATO ports and making a future Russian invasion harder will be the priority.

 

[Killingworth]

The Germans had units that were attempting to convert Soviet railways during the War on the Eastern Front. It is rather time consuming - especially if you don't want to close the railway in the interim.

I suspect Ukraine has much higher priorities at present just keeping what railways and infrastructure they have operational, plus the rest of their remaining industry. Not least because a very large percentage of their able workforce has been mobilised to fight, or are supporting those who are fighting.

Post-war it seems a very good idea, but there will be many higher priorities for early reconstruction

 

[Backroom_boy]

Would some of our old EMUs be of any use to them?

Is this peak 442 speculation?

 

[Sm5]

Why bother changing gauge, not every country in Europe uses standard gauge. No ones proposing Finland change gauge, so why Ukraine ?

They seem to coexist safely enough.

As for British EMUs.. when this war is over ukraine will be the land of oppourtunity, the biggest inward investment of any country since WW2, it’ll happen so fast Ukrainians will be stunned, but the ones making the money will be Europe dangling the EU membership carrot, and the US dangling the war funding influence. I dont see any room at the table for the UK, beyond our bill for the weapons we donated “recieved with grateful thanks” written on it.

 

[DanNCL]

I don't think high speed lines will be built until the entire network has been converted. I don't think conversion costs will be excessive because there should not need to be gauge clearance work.

A single high speed line to Kyiv from the EU border seems likely, even if it’s only a 200 kph line. The travel time for the what is by road the 350 mile trip between Lviv and Kyiv is currently in excess of 7 hours by rail and involves a lengthy detour south via Vinnytsia. A higher speed line taking a more direct route via Zhytomyr would shave hours off the journey time and help Ukraine become much more integrated with the EU.

I agree high speed lines to Kharkiv or Odesa seem unlikely.

The only "safe" option for lines to Russia is ripping up the track and demolishing every bridge and encouraging building on track bed when they go through settlements. Its not something I would ordinarily advocate but its not worth the risk just for the limited amount of trade likely after the war. If the war ends in a ceasfire rather than a proper peace treaty then its possible there will be no trade between Russia, mirroring the Korean border. I am surprised there are still four lines between Russia and unoccupied Ukraine, especially the two north of Kharkiv. They won't be in a servicable condition though. An exclusion zone near the border is another possibility, with the whole population and all non military infrastructure being removed from within two or three miles of the border.

Conversion from russian gauge shouldn't be cost prohibive. The loading gauge should be fine, along with most signalling and probably overhead wires too. The sleepers and some of the track will need replacing. I am not sure about platforms. Rolling stock will be a significant problem but it is managable over several years, especially if EU supports sale of old EU stock. City metros could be left where feasible and only changed once their rolling stock is reaching the end of its life.

Even the Korean border still has a railway line crossing it, though the number of times it’s been used in the last decade can likely be counted on one hand.

Loading gauge, signalling and platforms are all fine. UZ has EU loading gauge sleepers already for the through services to Warsaw and Vienna, and they can use the platforms in Ukraine without issue. PKP sleepers also used to make it to Lviv.

Would some of our old EMUs be of any use to them?

I doubt it. Ukraine has lower platforms and their loading gauge would be too big for UK trains. Ukraine will need to modify infrastructure to standard European loading gauge because its the largest source of suitable secondhand units. West of the Dneiper most electrified lines are 25kV AC while east of the Dnieper they are mostly 3kV DC. There are multiple EU countries that have use each type. Its still going to take a generation to do at an affordable cost. Prioritising getting freight to NATO ports and making a future Russian invasion harder will be the priority.

Anything from the UK apart from locos would be unusable in Ukraine even after gauge conversion. Standard EU units could see use there though. Definitely potential for units such as the Talent 3s that ÖBB rejected ending up there.

Why bother changing gauge, not every country in Europe uses standard gauge. No ones proposing Finland change gauge, so why Ukraine ?

They seem to coexist safely enough.

The difference with Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania is that Russia knows any invasion there would lead to a NATO response as they’re all either active NATO members or in the process of joining NATO. Finland also only has three cross border lines with Russia (one of which is already unusable), whereas Ukraine has many.

 

[Annetts key]

Converting every line to standard gauge would take a generation or more so something else also needs to be done to make the logistics of a future Russian invasion more difficult.

It very much depends on how important and how quickly Ukraine wants to change.

BR could manage the renewal of existing sleepers (wood or concrete, as long as they had suitable chairs/fixings that were compatible with the equipment being used) with new concrete sleepers on plain line at a rate of between ¼ and ½ mile per day. This did require the correct equipment, which could lift at least twenty sleepers in one go. It perfectly possible that more modern equipment has an even better performance.

So if Ukraine were provided with multiple sets of equipment/machinery, the transformation could be relatively quick.

It will be the junctions (switches and crossings/points) that will take more time and more resources. As it may be easier to just replace rather than try to convert.

 

[mike57]

I think that once proper reconstruction starts, (which will not happen until the Russians are kicked out), then thoughts may well turn to conversion to standard gauge, it could frustrate any fresh invasion attempt, but there are other more effective measures that could be taken to discourage a fresh invasion.

What it would do is align Ukraine more closely with its western neighbours, and facilitate trade and travel. It is also a political statement.

Unless there is a regime change in Russia the Ukraine - Russia border is likely to be a 'hard' one for many years after the end of the current war, heavily fortified no doubt, so cross border trains would probably be very limited even if they exist. The same probably applies to Belarus.

It will probably come down to state of the rail infrastructure at the end of the war, if it needs complete replacement anyway, then changing gauge would allow standard European supplies to be used, as it is unlikely they would be importing 5ft equipment from Russia, and there may be secondhand equipment (rolling stock and track components) which could be supplied from Europe as a 'quick fix' whilst a more comprehensive rebuild takes place.

 

[sefyllian]

Ukraine was apparently already planning to build new standard gauge high speed lines, since before the war, to integrate with the European network. These would have been initially from the west to Lviv then Kyiv, then other major cites like Odesa, Kharkiv, Dnipro, then a gradual conversion of the rest of the system. But possibly not all of it, as this was deemed “unrealistic” and would cost “at least $100 billion”. The aim was confirmed again in May this year – lots more details in this interview.