Portsmouth - Cardiff service potential solutions?

[irish_rail]

Indeed: if only GWR had some InterCity grade DMUs coming available having been replaced by IEPs in the West Country...

Sure, the Castle sets aren't exactly environmentally friendly and would no doubt raise some operating challenges, but with capacity on the route at crisis point it seems a waste not to consider them as a stop gap solution until new stock could be delivered. Think ScotRail, who had never previously had an HST in their existence and who also deployed 365s as a stop gap.

So you would take the Castles off a route where all crews sign them and the depots are used to maintaining them, to move them to a similar (albeit slower route) for what reason? Whats the advantage?. If the castles where to stay then they would stay on the Cardiff to Penzance route. End of story.

 

[nw1]

Rechecked, and the source I checked was for wrong Salisbury, now corrected, and corrected Newport to the city, rather than unitary area too. Apologies

No worries! That's the issue with unitary areas, they often include rural areas and small towns rather than the city itself.

 

[Parallel]

Realistically it would be difficult to remove stops, even if an extra MetroWest service does operate between Bristol and Westbury.

Trowbridge is now approaching similar population levels as Salisbury(!) so the only stop you could realistically skip in the middle is Bradford-on-Avon, but there is still a lot of traffic southbound from this station and adding an extra change at Westbury will increase journey times for anyone travelling south of and push more people onto the road. I can't comment on things at the Portsmouth end but the GWR service acts as the only fast service towards Southampton and Salisbury so removing stops would force people onto the stoppers.

 

[nw1]

Assuming this is a speculative idea for economically better times at some point in the future (5-10 years) I would probably do the following.

Introduce some further 5 car bi-modes, compatible with the 80x, and use those to operate both Cardiff-Portsmouth and Cardiff-Plymouth. Such units could also be used to restore the Paddington-Bedwyn service.

Focus the Cardiff-Portsmouth on long-distance travel and cut out one or two of the stops. Let's say Cardiff-Newport-Bristol TM-Bath-Trowbridge-Westbury-Warminster-Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Fareham-Cosham-Fratton-PSS-PH. The stopping pattern in the 2-car 158 days of the 90s was much like this.

Introduce a half-hourly stopper from Bristol to Westbury, using Turbos or any remaining Sprinters lying around. All stops would be served, but Freshford and Avoncliff 1tph only. Services then extended alternately to Frome (some to Weymouth) or to Salisbury.

 

[Snow1964]

Realistically it would be difficult to remove stops, even if an extra MetroWest service does operate between Bristol and Westbury.

Trowbridge is now approaching similar population levels as Salisbury(!) so the only stop you could realistically skip in the middle is Bradford-on-Avon, but there is still a lot of traffic southbound from this station and adding an extra change at Westbury will increase journey times for anyone travelling south of and push more people onto the road. I can't comment on things at the Portsmouth end but the GWR service acts as the only fast service towards Southampton and Salisbury so removing stops would force people onto the stoppers.

Bradford-on-Avon is an odd one, as it also serves Winsley, parts of Corsham and Melksham, so it’s catchment can be anything upto 50,000+ That puts it in same size as Salisbury and Trowbridge.

For Clarity Corsham and Melksham can also use Chippenham (if want to go towards Swindon), but recent road changes mean driving to Chippenham station is time consuming, and it has less frequent service.

These stations stay busy because the road alternative is poor, both A36 and A350 have very slow single carriageway sections with frequent congestion.

 

[nw1]

Realistically it would be difficult to remove stops, even if an extra MetroWest service does operate between Bristol and Westbury.

Trowbridge is now approaching similar population levels as Salisbury(!) so the only stop you could realistically skip in the middle is Bradford-on-Avon, but there is still a lot of traffic southbound from this station and adding an extra change at Westbury will increase journey times for anyone travelling south of and push more people onto the road.

You could get one of the Westbury stoppers to extend hourly to Salisbury. It's of note that Bradford was skipped in the 90s during the Wales and West days.

 

[Western Sunset]

Remember that Salisbury serves a wide hinterland. We live in Wimborne, but find it more convenient to drive there if catching a train to Bristol/Cardiff etc, than going to Poole and having to travel a roundabout route via Southampton.

 

[JonathanH]

It's of note that Bradford was skipped in the 90s during the Wales and West days.

Isn't it also of note that it justifies the station calls now?

British Rail used to alternate calls at Trowbridge and Westbury in the 90s. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.

 

[Parallel]

On the 12:18 Trowbridge to Cardiff Central now - 2 coaches and completely rammed. Passengers unable to board at Trowbridge and Bradford on Avon.

 

[meld3]

Way back in 1987, I moved to Trowbridge for a couple of years education, and every train was 5 or 6 Mk1 coaches with a 33, and they weren't exactly empty then. So add in 35 years passenger growth.....

 

[A0]

Not a huge amount but there are plenty of mid distance sort of journeys say Salisbury to Cardiff, Southampton to Bath, Portsmouth/Southampton to Westbury for connections west so I'd that it probably shouldn't be cut back as there are plenty of useful journeys.

Whilst I agree that it probably covers medium distance journeys, how many people travel from Salisbury to Cardiff ?

That's about 100 miles - the same as, for example, Lincoln to Birmingham or Worcester - Manchester neither or which can be done as a direct service - both needing a change at Birmingham. So would it really be a hardship to run Portsmouth - Cardiff only to Bristol and make a change ?

 

[Manutd1999]

I would like to see the Cardiff and Westbury services moved to the long-delayed 'MetroWest' network. The Portsmouth service would then be cut back to Temple Meads and skip some of the small stations between Westbury and Bristol.

 

[nw1]

Isn't it also of note that it justifies the station calls now?

My suggestion did include an additional hourly Salisbury stopper though, which could presumably provide a replacement. Remember this is the only "regional express" service between south Hampshire and Bristol/Bath/South Wales, so you don't want to add in too many stops.

Eastleigh is a sizeable place but doesn't get Weymouth services stopping, because there are semi-fasts on the same line which do the job. Likewise, XC services do not serve Didcot.

 

[Dai Corner]

Rechecked, and the source I checked was for wrong Salisbury, now corrected, and corrected Newport to the city, rather than unitary area too. Apologies

The Newport urban area extends well beyond the city council boundaries (like Bristol and the Southampton/Portsmouth conurbation) so the former's population is more appropriate when discussing likely demand for transport. The city is rather overshadowed by Cardiff and Bristol so it hasn't developed as a regional business/cultural/higher education centre so travel is probably more outward than inward.

My memories of commuting from there to Bristol about twenty years ago are of overcrowded 3 car 158s on the Portsmouth's and Pacers on the Weston/Taunton's. At least the booked 5 car Turbos are an improvement in terms of seating capacity. I'd like to see Flirts in future if GWR can persuade the Government to think longer-term than they currently are.

 

[A0]

Way back in 1987, I moved to Trowbridge for a couple of years education, and every train was 5 or 6 Mk1 coaches with a 33, and they weren't exactly empty then. So add in 35 years passenger growth.....

Mk1s weren't great from a capacity perspective - seating capacity on a TSO was 48 - compare that with 142 on a 2 car 158 or 186 on 2 car 165.

 

[Western Sunset]

Rather ironically, "Project Churchward" seems to be all about sweating existing assets, whereas the great man himself was very forward-thinking and looking to new builds. He also persuaded the Civil Engineer to improve clearances/weight limits to allow larger locos/stock, rather than stick with the status quo.

 

[JohnRegular]

I would like to see the Cardiff and Westbury services moved to the long-delayed 'MetroWest' network. The Portsmouth service would then be cut back to Temple Meads and skip some of the small stations between Westbury and Bristol.

What are these small stations? Aside from some peak services, Portsmouth trans don't call at Avoncliff, Freshford, Oldfield Park, or Keynsham, the latter two of which are arguably underserved anyway. Trowbridge is a sizeable place which absolutely deserves its stop. I'm sure you're not suggesting skipping Bath, leaving only Bradford-on-Avon which is hardly a quiet halt.

The idea of missing out well-used stations to solve the overcrowding problem is at best a sticking plaster. The solution is simple, if expensive, and it's a new order of suitable regional trains (we can quibble all we like about door positions and seating layouts). Even stock displaced from elsewhere will do for the short term.

 

[Energy]

Rather ironically, "Project Churchward" seems to be all about sweating existing assets, whereas the great man himself was very forward-thinking and looking to new builds.

AFAIK Project Churchward is about new rolling stock.

The GWR National Rail Contract also includes a review of its diesel rolling stock with the DfT wanting greener trains (also because battery trains require less maintanence and are generally cheaper to operate).

So you would take the Castles off a route where all crews sign them and the depots are used to maintaining them, to move them to a similar (albeit slower route) for what reason? Whats the advantage?. If the castles where to stay then they would stay on the Cardiff to Penzance route. End of story.

Castles aren't really suited as well, they suffer with the same door problems as 158s and shouldn't be operating stopping services.

 

[Envoy]

The Cardiff to Manchester route is in many ways similar to the Cardiff to Portsmouth line as it links major conurbations and serves smaller places. It will be interesting to see how things work out with the changes being made by Transport for Wales following years of overcrowding on The Marches. Class 67 locomotives will haul 5 Mk4 Inter City coaches & DVT every other hour between Cardiff & Manchester mainly calling at only the major places such as Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe & Stockport. New CAF Class 197 DMU’s with doors at thirds will run in the alternate hours on this route and go all the way through to Pembrokeshire = 5 cars Manchester to Swansea & then 2 cars going west. Cardiff to Holyhead trains will also see the Class 67’s and the 197’s. Stoppers will also operate between Crewe & Shrewsbury and the infrequent Heart of Wales trains will also serve the main line at Craven Arms & Church Stretton. New direct services linking Cardiff and Liverpool every other hour with 197’s will also be introduced. So, hopefully, with this combination everybody should be well served and we will see passenger growth on the railways instead of driving people to use cars - as is happening with the Cardiff to Portsmouth route.

 

[Snow1964]

Realistically it would be difficult to remove stops, even if an extra MetroWest service does operate between Bristol and Westbury.

Trowbridge is now approaching similar population levels as Salisbury(!) so the only stop you could realistically skip in the middle is Bradford-on-Avon, but there is still a lot of traffic southbound from this station and adding an extra change at Westbury will increase journey times for anyone travelling south of and push more people onto the road. I can't comment on things at the Portsmouth end but the GWR service acts as the only fast service towards Southampton and Salisbury so removing stops would force people onto the stoppers.

Looked up the station usage figures for some of the stations on the line (and a few others in SW for comparison). Figures from ORR report last month.

Trowbridge 640,376
Westbury 438,970
Tiverton Parkway 405,222
Filton Abbey Wood 384,584
Bradford-on-Avon 351,558
Christchurch 338,454
Romsey 328,886
Dorchester South 322,654
Keynsham 298,478
Warminster 283,894
Castle Cary 240,462
Frome 166,484

So skipping the busier Bradford-on-Avon makes no sense, if don’t also skip quieter Warminster and Romsey. Keynsham seems to be a more important stop than Warminster too. Maybe need the higher frequency Metrowest service to commence first (which keeps getting delayed indefinitely).

Actually looking at some of the figures, rather suggests that some of the service levels are all wrong in sense of busyness, and the mix of stopping, fast and semi-fast is more determined by operational convenience than number of passengers. Almost feels like a semi-fast from somewhere near Yate to Warminster is needed.

 

[anthony263]

Pity dft abd the treasury won't pay for further gwml wiring especially from Patchway and Chippenham to Bristol TM abd possibly Westbury. Could gwr order a tri mode battery unit which could run on batteries from Westbury through to Redbridge.

I think we need a 3rd rail extension program get the rail from the Southampton abd Basingstoke area up to Salisbury

 

[nw1]

Looked up the station usage figures for some of the stations on the line (and a few others in SW for comparison). Figures from ORR report last month.

Trowbridge 640,376
Westbury 438,970
Tiverton Parkway 405,222
Filton Abbey Wood 384,584
Bradford-on-Avon 351,558
Christchurch 338,454
Romsey 328,886
Dorchester South 322,654
Keynsham 298,478
Warminster 283,894
Castle Cary 240,462
Frome 166,484

So skipping the busier Bradford-on-Avon makes no sense, if don’t also skip quieter Warminster and Romsey. Keynsham seems to be a more important stop than Warminster too. Maybe need the higher frequency Metrowest service to commence first (which keeps getting delayed indefinitely).

The issue there though is that Warminster and Romsey are harder to serve via other trains, while Bradford-on-Avon can be provided for by a half-hourly stopper between Bristol and Westbury, with some journeys extending beyond Westbury as noted above. As I've said already an additional hourly Bristol-Salisbury stopper would to me make sense.

 

[A0]

It wouldn't be unprecedented for a bespoke design to be produced with the Portsmouth-Cardiff route in mind, as this is what the Western Region of British Railways did in the 1960s with the introduction of the Swindon-built Inter City DMUs - class 123 I think. They featured proper main-line standards of accommodation, including comfortable compartment coaches and a buffet car within the formation. I think they were introduced in the early 1960s, but they still looked exceptionally smart and were still hammering through my then local station at Netley when I walked home from Junior School in 1966/67 although they were replaced by MK1s and Hymek Class 35s shortly after.

It is a problematic route to serve as yes, it does act as a local commuter service throughout parts of the journey, but equally a surprisingly high number of passengers do travel longer distances, as others have said, Portsmouth to Westbury, Southampton to Cardiff, Fareham to Bath etc. A lot of military personnel use it between Portsmouth and Westbury - Navy people travelling from Portsmouth to Plymouth, and lots and lots of students between the various universities along the route. The Portsmouth/Southampton conurbation is the eighth largest in the UK, and considering the route connects this enormously-populated area of over 1.5 million people with Bristol and the Welsh Capital - the service today is positively woeful.

I have given-up using rail completely within the United Kingdom as the two routes I previously used Southampton - Bristol and Southampton - Birmingham are just so unpleasant using crowded, ancient, filthy, noisy, smoke-belching trains. I still use the Vestbanen in Norway on a regular basis and it provides such a stark contrast to the appalling non-service people are forced to accept here.

It is much easier to run a railway in a country with a population of less than Greater London with a network 1/4 the size of the UK and a fraction of the number of stations.

 

[A0]

Pity dft abd the treasury won't pay for further gwml wiring especially from Patchway and Chippenham to Bristol TM abd possibly Westbury. Could gwr order a tri mode battery unit which could run on batteries from Westbury through to Redbridge.

I think we need a 3rd rail extension program get the rail from the Southampton abd Basingstoke area up to Salisbury

Bit in bold - it would make *far* more sense to wire Basingstoke - Sailsbury as part of wiring Basingstoke - Reading and Salisbury to Southampton so freight could be electrically hauled from Southampton.

 

[Annetts key]

So skipping the busier Bradford-on-Avon makes no sense, if don’t also skip quieter Warminster and Romsey. Keynsham seems to be a more important stop than Warminster too. Maybe need the higher frequency Metrowest service to commence first (which keeps getting delayed indefinitely).

Actually looking at some of the figures, rather suggests that some of the service levels are all wrong in sense of busyness, and the mix of stopping, fast and semi-fast is more determined by operational convenience than number of passengers. Almost feels like a semi-fast from somewhere near Yate to Warminster is needed.

Part of the reasons for the current stopping patterns is due to the GWML between Bristol T.M. and Bathampton Junction being very busy and near capacity. So trains running on the ‘Trowbridge’ branch have to be timed to slot around the other trains. This problem also occurs elsewhere on the route.

The re-quading of the Filton lines definitely eased the capacity problem between B.T.M. and Filton Junction. The extra line and platform at Bristol Parkway also helped a little.

Any extra services going via Bristol Parkway and Yate will however increase the problems with the section of line between B.P.W. and Westerleigh Junction, which is now also becoming a very busy area.

Hence it is definitely worthwhile considering longer trains where practical. Even if this means some work to the stations with shorter length platforms.

 

[GWVillager]

How many people actually travel the full distance between Cardiff and Portsmouth? Maybe the service needs to be cut back?

I do regularly. Whilst the numbers travelling the whole way are low, there are enough travelling between, say, Cardiff and Southampton or Salisbury and Bristol Parkway to justify keeping the route as one.

Indeed: if only GWR had some InterCity grade DMUs coming available having been replaced by IEPs in the West Country...

Sure, the Castle sets aren't exactly environmentally friendly and would no doubt raise some operating challenges, but with capacity on the route at crisis point it seems a waste not to consider them as a stop gap solution until new stock could be delivered. Think ScotRail, who had never previously had an HST in their existence and who also deployed 365s as a stop gap.

I believe GWR initially wanted to operate castle HSTs on the route, but there are some issues with bogie clearance in the Portsmouth area (I could be completely wrong on this, it's just what I heard).

So would it really be a hardship to run Portsmouth - Cardiff only to Bristol and make a change ?

It would be terribly inconvenient. Surprisingly large numbers stat on past Bristol in both directions.

 

[grahame]

Thats the worrying thing

(Talkimg of reducing overcrowding by reducing passenger numbers)

That's exactly what happened in 2006, when First took over the operation from Wessx trains - 3 cars reduced to 2, overcrowding, and passenger numbers dropped in contrast to growth elsewhere

 

[RPI]

(Talkimg of reducing overcrowding by reducing passenger numbers)

That's exactly what happened in 2006, when First took over the operation from Wessx trains - 3 cars reduced to 2, overcrowding, and passenger numbers dropped in contrast to growth elsewhere

I know..... I had to endure the 6 months or so abuse from the December 2006 timetable!

 

[paul1609]

I believe GWR initially wanted to operate castle HSTs on the route, but there are some issues with bogie clearance in the Portsmouth area (I could be completely wrong on this, it's just what I heard).

It depends what bogies the Castles have got fitted. The Long Swing Link version is banned from all 3rd rail lines because it can in theory contact with the 3rd rail in the event of failure of the secondary air suspension.
The Eastleigh and Guildord Routes from Portsmouth are cleared for HST and were used by XC on scheduled services. GWR HSTs have reached Portsmouth at various times on specials.
The route via Netley was restricted because of issues with the Hamble Viaduct but these were resolved during its refurbishment in 2009 but nobody has ever needed to clear a HST that way since although it is used by 444s daily and Voyagers on diversion.

 

[GWVillager]

It depends what bogies the Castles have got fitted. The Long Swing Link version is banned from all 3rd rail lines because it can in theory contact with the 3rd rail in the event of failure of the secondary air suspension.
The Eastleigh and Guildord Routes from Portsmouth are cleared for HST and were used by XC on scheduled services. GWR HSTs have reached Portsmouth at various times on specials.
The route via Netley was restricted because of issues with the Hamble Viaduct but these were resolved during its refurbishment in 2009 but nobody has ever needed to clear a HST that way since although it is used by 444s daily and Voyagers on diversion.

So it could have happened? Why did they not go ahead? Not that it really matters now anyway, with the Castles going.