What is the likely size of the GWR future local / regional fleet

[Clarence Yard]

Got to take issue with this. 7 coach sets is just what GWR needs for The Cotswolds, Cheltenham, Exeter stoppers and perhaps Cardiffs. Dont forget the whole 10 car (2 x 5 car sets) has been pretty much discredited now and so lots and lots of short trains that can make longer trains are not now what GWR needs. A mix of 9s (for Penzance, Bristol and Swansea) 7s (for Cotswold, Cheltenham, Exeter stoppers) and a few 5s for some off peak Oxfords Bedwyns and 2+4 replacement is whats needed.

No - 7 cars would be inadequate for some of the lines you suggest. Even now, the loadings on some of these services dictate load 9.

The problem with having a slight variance in set length was exemplified in HST days. When you had to step up, you had enormous problems fitting the right set onto the right service, especially if you had to get it back for a key later working. It is far better to have a homogenous length on the same type of service, working into a common terminus.

You have never been happy with 5+5 working and we get that but “discredited” is far too strong a term for them. They were a means to an end on the 802 order and on the 800 order, it was originally going to be a completely different service offer with split and joins all over the GWR network, something that the late Roger Watkins and I put a stop to, when we persuaded the DfT that the forward working of the splits wouldn’t cope with the passenger loads. That eventually led to the bumping up the 802 9 car order.

 

[irish_rail]

You have never been happy with 5+5 working and we get that but “discredited” is far too strong a term for them. They were a means to an end on the 802 order and on the 800 order, it was originally going to be a completely different service offer with split and joins all over the GWR network, something that the late Roger Watkins and I put a stop to, when we persuaded the DfT that the forward working of the splits wouldn’t cope with the passenger loads. That eventually led to the bumping up the 802 9 car ororder.

OK discredited maybe a bit strong but I think its fair to say with benefit of hindsight and the new enlarged long rock coming on stream, we wouldn't have anywhere near the number of 5s we have and preferably no 10 car working as it is costly and wasteful. But of course 5 years ago much of this wasnt forseen or the plan.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

OK discredited maybe a bit strong but I think its fair to say with benefit of hindsight and the new enlarged long rock coming on stream, we wouldn't have anywhere near the number of 5s we have and preferably no 10 car working as it is costly and wasteful. But of course 5 years ago much of this wasnt forseen or the plan.

A lot of things on the railway would be easier if we had a Crystal Ball or a Time Machine but as we don’t we have to make do with what we had, at that time there was no funding for the enhanced Long Rock etc.

10 car working does bring some robustness, before if an HST failed on Long Rock it was service cancelled now you can split a 10 car to recover the service and at least not have cancellations albeit with a short-form.

 

[Clarence Yard]

In the early stages of DA3, I had, on my own initiative, drawn up plans to extend most of the 802 5 cars to 9 and getting the sidings back in at Ponsandane was a prerequisite. Before then, there were no plans to put the sidings back at all.

The land was going to be sold off by NR at that early stage of DA3 and when I found out about it, I said to Matt Golton that it needed to be stopped and GWR had to object, saying that was the only place left at PZ if he wanted to either eventually go 5 to 9 or start more morning services from PZ up as load 9 or 10. From Google Earth and Streetview (invaluable tools in bids!) I had previously drawn up what the possibilities were. Matt being Matt saw the opportunity and the chance to get some external funding and off he went to get the scheme off the ground with his customary drive and energy.

If you future proof your schemes, you can make the most of that future. Something that “the great cartographer” at the DfT didn’t tend to do, preferring the “this is the right way, end of discussion” approach. Getting the sidings back in protects those future opportunities as well as enabling good things to happen in the present.

 

[The Ham]

No - 7 cars would be inadequate for some of the lines you suggest. Even now, the loadings on some of these services dictate load 9.

The problem with having a slight variance in set length was exemplified in HST days. When you had to step up, you had enormous problems fitting the right set onto the right service, especially if you had to get it back for a key later working. It is far better to have a homogenous length on the same type of service, working into a common terminus.

You have never been happy with 5+5 working and we get that but “discredited” is far too strong a term for them. They were a means to an end on the 802 order and on the 800 order, it was originally going to be a completely different service offer with split and joins all over the GWR network, something that the late Roger Watkins and I put a stop to, when we persuaded the DfT that the forward working of the splits wouldn’t cope with the passenger loads. That eventually led to the bumping up the 802 9 car order.

For either side of the argument to answer, which is better a fleet made up of say:

30*5 coaches
10*7 coaches
20*9 coaches

OR

35*5 coaches
25*9 coaches

Both fleets have the same number of coaches and the same number of units so the costs were the same (there maybe some tiny variation between total seat counts, but not really enough to worry about).

My answers is the latter for many reasons.

Two which come to the fore, the capacity "lost" compared to a HST vs the 5 coach is about 40%, bit then the 9/10 coach versions are +18% and it's far easier to timetable units for being in service (you can't replace a 5+5 service with a 5+7, so you'd likely end up with more short forms then you'd otherwise have).

Whilst running a 5 coach units vs a HST would mean overcrowding on they service if the two services either side were 9/10 coaches then across the three services overall capacity is broadly the same. Not all services are going to be busy (even before you consider the potential of splitting/joining to eak out extra capacity over part of a route), so managing unit allocation should be able to match demand to capacity reasonably easily. Even before doing things like limiting the number and discounts on advanced tickets for the trains with fewer seats.

If rail recovery continues, possibly even leading to rail growth within the next 5 years, there's likely to be need to lengthen some of those 5 coach units up to 9 coaches (with each unit done potentially allowing one additional allocations of units to be 9/10 coaches long, as you take a 5+5 service replace it with the lengthened 9 coach unit, leaving a spare 5 coach unit which can be added to an existing 5 coach service to make it 5+5).

 

[Snow1964]

No - 7 cars would be inadequate for some of the lines you suggest. Even now, the loadings on some of these services dictate load 9.

The problem with having a slight variance in set length was exemplified in HST days. When you had to step up, you had enormous problems fitting the right set onto the right service, especially if you had to get it back for a key later working. It is far better to have a homogenous length on the same type of service, working into a common terminus.

The argument is undermined by the way GWR use the sets. Go to somewhere like Bath Spa and you will see a mix of lengths, 5car, 5+5, 9car on same workings.

That might not have been the intention when the trains were ordered, but it indicates times have changed.

I too think if going to operate three types (which in practice already doing) then why not buy some extra intermediate cars and extend some 5car to 7car. If it means can avoid double units on some workings it frees up trains. I accept some workings will need longer than 7car, but longer trains at busy times are normal on many lines around the country.

If the DfT had any strategic plan (or common sense), it would have built a 110mph regional bi-mode for Cardiff-Plymouth and Cardiff-Portsmouth, (and Waterloo-Exeter) and reallocated the surplus GWR IETs to Cross country for its under the wires services to Manchester, and at same time sorting out the short formed turbo crisis that GWR west has.

 

[irish_rail]

In the early stages of DA3, I had, on my own initiative, drawn up plans to extend most of the 802 5 cars to 9 and getting the sidings back in at Ponsandane was a prerequisite. Before then, there were no plans to put the sidings back at all.

The land was going to be sold off by NR at that early stage of DA3 and when I found out about it, I said to Matt Golton that it needed to be stopped and GWR had to object, saying that was the only place left at PZ if he wanted to either eventually go 5 to 9 or start more morning services from PZ up as load 9 or 10. From Google Earth and Streetview (invaluable tools in bids!) I had previously drawn up what the possibilities were. Matt being Matt saw the opportunity and the chance to get some external funding and off he went to get the scheme off the ground with his customary drive and energy.

If you future proof your schemes, you can make the most of that future. Something that “the great cartographer” at the DfT didn’t tend to do, preferring the “this is the right way, end of discussion” approach. Getting the sidings back in protects those future opportunities as well as enabling good things to happen in the present.

Well thank you for this it should be a massive positive in the long term one would hope.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2022 ==

10 car working does bring some robustness, before if an HST failed on Long Rock it was service cancelled now you can split a 10 car to recover the service and at least not have cancellations albeit with a shshort-form.

This is what I have a problem with though. Short forming a Penzance to London train should not be taken so lightly. I was recently talking to a neighbour who was considering travelling Plymouth to London but he is reticent because of his health and he is concerned that he would not be able to physically stand for 3 hours if the train wasn't the advertised number of carriages and his reserved seat was binned. I think people conveniently forget just how long a journey the south west to London is, its up there with Aberdeen or Inverness to London (ok not quite as long, but Pz to Padd is quite a bit longer than Edinburgh or Glasgow to London). Short forms simply are not acceptable and having the ability to do this when short of regional stuff , for me is NOT a positive.

 

[RPI]

Well thank you for this it should be a massive positive in the long term one would hope.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2022 ==


This is what I have a problem with though. Short forming a Penzance to London train should not be taken so lightly. I was recently talking to a neighbour who was considering travelling Plymouth to London but he is reticent because of his health and he is concerned that he would not be able to physically stand for 3 hours if the train wasn't the advertised number of carriages and his reserved seat was binned. I think people conveniently forget just how long a journey the south west to London is, its up there with Aberdeen or Inverness to London (ok not quite as long, but Pz to Padd is quite a bit longer than Edinburgh or Glasgow to London). Short forms simply are not acceptable and having the ability to do this when short of regional stuff , for me is NOT a positive.

Agreed, but short forms on the Penzance/Plymouth to Pad route are not as common as you make out and as annoying as they are, unless its high summer the overcrowding isn't always horrendous, though certainly not pleasant.

An example was just before Christmas I ended up with a 5 v 9 on pad from Exeter, when I saw it was 5 I was cursing under my breath and dreading it, when it actually arrived and we all got on it was full but still one or two seats, after Taunton it was full and standing which certainly isn't acceptable, but that was the first 5 car I'd had for quite a while, even then, most people could probably have been seated as there were some seats dotted around but most standees seemed content standing or sitting in the vestibules!

With the exception of the 08:35 Plymouth to Pad stopper which was actually booked as a 5 car for some bizarre reason! I believe that one is now booked as a 10 thankfully.

 

[irish_rail]

Agreed, but short forms on the Penzance/Plymouth to Pad route are not as common as you make out and as annoying as they are, unless its high summer the overcrowding isn't always horrendous, though certainly not pleasant.

An example was just before Christmas I ended up with a 5 v 9 on pad from Exeter, when I saw it was 5 I was cursing under my breath and dreading it, when it actually arrived and we all got on it was full but still one or two seats, after Taunton it was full and standing which certainly isn't acceptable, but that was the first 5 car I'd had for quite a while, even then, most people could probably have been seated as there were some seats dotted around but most standees seemed content standing or sitting in the vestibules!

With the exception of the 08:35 Plymouth to Pad stopper which was actually booked as a 5 car for some bizarre reason! I believe that one is now booked as a 10 thankfully.

I'd say they go in fits and starts with the short forms. I reckon when the HSTs are withdrawn fully, that soon as there is a shortage , rather than substitute a HsT into the mix, a 10 car will inevitably become a 5 in order to run the full service. And on the routes we run it only takes one bad experience to dissuade customers from ever coming back. Short forming shouldn't be occurring full stop on proper long intercity routes and yet it DOES occur on a daily basis. I fear it will get worse, (back to 2019 levels) not better in the coming 12 months as more pressure is put on the 5 car fleet and the 9s are inevitably concentrated on Swansea and Bristol.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'd say they go in fits and starts with the short forms. I reckon when the HSTs are withdrawn fully, that soon as there is a shortage , rather than substitute a HsT into the mix, a 10 car will inevitably become a 5 in order to run the full service. And on the routes we run it only takes one bad experience to dissuade customers from ever coming back. Short forming shouldn't be occurring full stop on proper long intercity routes and yet it DOES occur on a daily basis. I fear it will get worse, (back to 2019 levels) not better in the coming 12 months as more pressure is put on the 5 car fleet and the 9s are inevitably concentrated on Swansea and Bristol.

The forthcoming two-hourly extensions to Carmarthen will presumably have to involve 5 car sets as I don't think 9 cars fit there?

 

[RPI]

I'd say they go in fits and starts with the short forms. I reckon when the HSTs are withdrawn fully, that soon as there is a shortage , rather than substitute a HsT into the mix, a 10 car will inevitably become a 5 in order to run the full service. And on the routes we run it only takes one bad experience to dissuade customers from ever coming back. Short forming shouldn't be occurring full stop on proper long intercity routes and yet it DOES occur on a daily basis. I fear it will get worse, (back to 2019 levels) not better in the coming 12 months as more pressure is put on the 5 car fleet and the 9s are inevitably concentrated on Swansea and Bristol.

I know it does happen, but I'd certainly question whether it happens daily, like yourself I work the routes most days and although there are more short forms than I'd like, it certainly seems to be the exception rather than the rule, but like you say, it shouldn't happen at all really.

Though there is one positive to 10 cars, though veering off topic slightly, at least most passengers will see the catering trolley. 9 cars are a pain for this, quite obviously two trolleys are needed on 9 car sets!

 

[RobShipway]

I'd say they go in fits and starts with the short forms. I reckon when the HSTs are withdrawn fully, that soon as there is a shortage , rather than substitute a HsT into the mix, a 10 car will inevitably become a 5 in order to run the full service. And on the routes we run it only takes one bad experience to dissuade customers from ever coming back. Short forming shouldn't be occurring full stop on proper long intercity routes and yet it DOES occur on a daily basis. I fear it will get worse, (back to 2019 levels) not better in the coming 12 months as more pressure is put on the 5 car fleet and the 9s are inevitably concentrated on Swansea and Bristol.

You can argue the same with the Newbury services, which sometimes are four car class 387. Admittedly from what I have seen the four car class 387 is only going to Reading and the service to London Paddington is generally an 8 car service, but from time to time this is also a 4 car service when it should really be an 8 car service all day. Yes, you have currently got the 5 car class 8xx Bedwyn - London service, but I suspect that will be cut when the HST's are withdrawn.

This will mean that you will be left with Class 165/166 services from Bedwyn to Reading with services from Penzance, Plymouth and Bristol Temple Meads stopping at Bedwyn, but no direct trains to London that have started from Bedwyn.

The forthcoming two-hourly extensions to Carmarthen will presumably have to involve 5 car sets as I don't think 9 cars fit there?

See above.

Now, getting this thread back to GWR future local/regional fleet ideas, I believe as many have said that GWR in replacing class 150/158/165 & 166 units should go for something like class 755/756 flirt trains. However, I believe many of the local routes within Cornwall & Devon, the stations can only just about fit 3 car units. The problem you have with the flirt trains, is that you have a power unit in the middle, so even if GWR brought some 3 passenger car trains, they may actually be too long for many stations unless Network rail was able to extend those platforms. Otherwise, it would need to be done on the basis that only certain doors within the carriages are allowed to be opened.

With regards to the order from GWR, I personally would suggest that three coach and five coach flirt trains or similar are ordered. This would mean ordering 36 five car flirt trains & 30 three car flirt trains. Before someone says that this is not enough units being ordered, it is worked out on the basis that some of the 10 2 car class 158 and 7 3 car class 158 work together. It is also on the basis, that you may also get some of the 20 class 150/1 2 car units working together or singularly. There is currently 16 three car class 165/1 and 20 two car class 165/1, plus 21 3 car class 166. Where trains are working in multiple at the moment, they would be replaced with one unit. I have also tried to allow for an increase in capacity numbers possibly in the future.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well thank you for this it should be a massive positive in the long term one would hope.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2022 ==


This is what I have a problem with though. Short forming a Penzance to London train should not be taken so lightly. I was recently talking to a neighbour who was considering travelling Plymouth to London but he is reticent because of his health and he is concerned that he would not be able to physically stand for 3 hours if the train wasn't the advertised number of carriages and his reserved seat was binned. I think people conveniently forget just how long a journey the south west to London is, its up there with Aberdeen or Inverness to London (ok not quite as long, but Pz to Padd is quite a bit longer than Edinburgh or Glasgow to London). Short forms simply are not acceptable and having the ability to do this when short of regional stuff , for me is NOT a positive.

I’m a bit lost here, before if there was a failure overnight at Long Rock with a 2+8 HST a train was cancelled next morning, ie short formed to 0 coaches, that’s better than running it with 5 coaches apparently? There never was a ‘spare’ HST overnight at Long Rock. I don’t get it…

I’m not talking about running services as 5 coaches as booked, I’m talking about when there are failures you can at least run the train where as before it would have been cancelled!

 

[irish_rail]

I’m a bit lost here, before if there was a failure overnight at Long Rock with a 2+8 HST a train was cancelled next morning, ie short formed to 0 coaches, that’s better than running it with 5 coaches apparently? There never was a ‘spare’ HST overnight at Long Rock. I don’t get it…

I’m not talking about running services as 5 coaches as booked, I’m talking about when there are failures you can at least run the train where as before it would have been cancelled!

And I'm referring to the new 5 car replacements for 2+4. The minute there is a set short,one will be nicked from a 10 car formation in order to provide the regional set for its diagram. Great for the local service but less so for the intercity passengers who then make do with 5 vice 10 for 3, 4 or 5 hour journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2022 ==

I know it does happen, but I'd certainly question whether it happens daily, like yourself I work the routes most days and although there are more short forms than I'd like, it certainly seems to be the exception rather than the rule, but like you say, it shouldn't happen at all really.

Though there is one positive to 10 cars, though veering off topic slightly, at least most passengers will see the catering trolley. 9 cars are a pain for this, quite obviously two trolleys are needed on 9 car sets!

Indeed the trolley situation is far from ideal on the 9 cars, I guess that's where an argument for a buffet somewhere in the middle of the train comes in but thats very much for a different thread!

 

[150249]

How long is GWR's contract?

 

[irish_rail]

The forthcoming two-hourly extensions to Carmarthen will presumably have to involve 5 car sets as I don't think 9 cars fit there?

I hope your right, but introducing some competition on this route may well lead GWR to up its game on the south Wales route. I know many people won't notice the difference between a 10 car or a 9 car, but I'd say first class has a much nicer feel in the 9 car sets, and its generally easier to find the correct seat and carriage in standard. Therefore I'd guess GWR will concentrate the 9s on the north of the region and make the south of the region make do with the 10s, although that's admittedly just my suspicion!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2022 ==

I’m a bit lost here, before if there was a failure overnight at Long Rock with a 2+8 HST a train was cancelled next morning, ie short formed to 0 coaches, that’s better than running it with 5 coaches apparently? There never was a ‘spare’ HST overnight at Long Rock. I don’t get it…

I’m not talking about running services as 5 coaches as booked, I’m talking about when there are failures you can at least run the train where as before it would have been cancelled!

Also I would just like to add to that, in the circumstance you describe, yes the Penzance to Plymouth bit would be a cancellation, but more often than not Laira WOULD provide a 2+8 HST to cover the diagram from Plymouth onward, meaning the vast majority of passengers that day wouldn't even be inconvenienced.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Also I would just like to add to that, in the circumstance you describe, yes the Penzance to Plymouth bit would be a cancellation, but more often than not Laira WOULD provide a 2+8 HST to cover the diagram from Plymouth onward, meaning the vast majority of passengers that day wouldn't even be inconvenienced.

Hang on, on one hand you’ve banged many times on about how busy the London services are in Cornwall needing 9 cars all the way then on the other hand you say the “vast majority” of passengers only travel eastwards from Plymouth.

It can’t be both…

 

[jimm]

1. Are we assuming that Oxford will be wired in the next five/ ten years? All the
DMUs needed on the Didcot-Oxford service can be discounted if there’s not going to be a Didcot-Oxford service (because it’ll be 387s from Paddington to Oxford instead)? We were waiting for remodelling before anything was erected? IF we assume (big “if”) that Chiltern can have the Oxford-Banbury local stuff then there are no GWR DMUs needed at/near Oxford (all Worcester services in the hands of 800s, Anything to the south of Oxford will be a 387/800 towards Paddington)?

I'm sure Clarence Yard will have the answer but shuttling up and down all day between Didcot and Oxford (with the odd extension to Banbury) is not exactly a resource-heavy operation, needing perhaps three 2-car Turbos at most. Even if wires go up and the 387s make it to Oxford as intended and Chiltern's fleet could stretch to covering Oxford-Banbury stoppers, a GWR dmu will still be needed on the Cotswold halts trains - though I'm sure the regular passengers would be delighted to have an IET laid on.

From a passenger point of view id absolutely hope for nothing stadler (having had a ride from London to Colchester on one once it was awful in terms of ride and passenger environemnt). Can't comment on the cabs mind as haven't been in one. Oh, and yellow fronts please none of this black warning panel nonsense haha.

In a shock development, I am going to agree 100% with your assessment - ride has been poor whenever I have set foot on a 745. Not that often, admittedly, but on random sampling of both Stansted and Norwich sets, the issue was present each time. Or maybe it is just East Anglian track.

They really need a 5car (or 6-8 section articulated unit), about 120m long bi-mode with dual voltage capability, good number of doors, decent seating (and I mean comfortable for 2+ hour journeys), ideally with level boarding for the longer regional trains. I would say 110mph on 25kv, but around 95mph on 750v and diesel should be ok. For simplicity will call this a regional bi-mode.

The 165s and 166s could be retained for some local trains until early 2030s, (although places like Cornwall would need some staff training), but whatever is introduced would also need training.

Actually GWR are not the only operator that needs the regional bi-mode. There is a strong case for some of its services through Cotswolds too, and even those where IETs are taking over from Castle HSTs (which don’t need a train designed for high speed).

You made the same claim about this hypothetical train being suitable for Cotswold services elsewhere, so either here, or in the other thread, could you address the following:

Could you please identify which services do not justify use of an IET and at what times of day and days of the week they run, and provide actual evidence to justify this claim, such as consistently poor loadings on particular services?

And please explain how exactly Cotswold services operated by this hypothetical 110mph train are going to keep out of the way of 125mph IETs on the main lines between Paddington and Didcot (or Swindon, if you are refering to Gloucester/Cheltenham as Cotswold services as well). Pathing of the few 110mph 387s services that use the mains for part of their journey in the Thames Valley is not without risk of delay to other services.

Got to take issue with this. 7 coach sets is just what GWR needs for The Cotswolds, Cheltenham, Exeter stoppers and perhaps Cardiffs. Dont forget the whole 10 car (2 x 5 car sets) has been pretty much discredited now and so lots and lots of short trains that can make longer trains are not now what GWR needs. A mix of 9s (for Penzance, Bristol and Swansea) 7s (for Cotswold, Cheltenham, Exeter stoppers) and a few 5s for some off peak Oxfords Bedwyns and 2+4 replacement is whats needed.

I love that several years on, no matter what the question is, the answer is always 9-car sets for Penzance services, with dubious theories about what will work everywhere else, no matter what the reality is.

A lot of extra GWR services to Carmarthen equals a lot of 2x5s on South Wales runs and splits/joins at Swansea - otherwise where are all the 9-cars for Penzance duties coming from?

Hang on, on one hand you’ve banged many times on about how busy the London services are in Cornwall needing 9 cars all the way then on the other hand you say the “vast majority” of passengers only travel eastwards from Plymouth.

It can’t be both…

Oh yes it can...

 

[Clarence Yard]

I hope your right, but introducing some competition on this route may well lead GWR to up its game on the south Wales route. I know many people won't notice the difference between a 10 car or a 9 car, but I'd say first class has a much nicer feel in the 9 car sets, and its generally easier to find the correct seat and carriage in standard. Therefore I'd guess GWR will concentrate the 9s on the north of the region and make the south of the region make do with the 10s, although that's admittedly just my suspicion!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2022 ==


Also I would just like to add to that, in the circumstance you describe, yes the Penzance to Plymouth bit would be a cancellation, but more often than not Laira WOULD provide a 2+8 HST to cover the diagram from Plymouth onward, meaning the vast majority of passengers that day wouldn't even be inconvenienced.

No, they can’t go all load 9 on the London-Bristol-South Wales because the maintenance arrangements in the IET contract won’t let them. The 800 5 cars have to work mainly on that corridor. Anyway, the forthcoming competition probably won’t make any difference to the GWR offer if what happened on the ECML when the OA operators appeared is anything to go by.

The point about LA finding a spare HST set is true. That was the advantage of it being the main maintenance point on the route was that the spares were always based there. Not the same with the 802 fleet which, up to now, has been North Pole based.

 

[Snow1964]

How long is GWR's contract?

currently extended until 25th June 2028, so another 5.5 years

 

[RPI]

In the early stages of DA3, I had, on my own initiative, drawn up plans to extend most of the 802 5 cars to 9 and getting the sidings back in at Ponsandane was a prerequisite. Before then, there were no plans to put the sidings back at all.

The land was going to be sold off by NR at that early stage of DA3 and when I found out about it, I said to Matt Golton that it needed to be stopped and GWR had to object, saying that was the only place left at PZ if he wanted to either eventually go 5 to 9 or start more morning services from PZ up as load 9 or 10. From Google Earth and Streetview (invaluable tools in bids!) I had previously drawn up what the possibilities were. Matt being Matt saw the opportunity and the chance to get some external funding and off he went to get the scheme off the ground with his customary drive and energy.

If you future proof your schemes, you can make the most of that future. Something that “the great cartographer” at the DfT didn’t tend to do, preferring the “this is the right way, end of discussion” approach. Getting the sidings back in protects those future opportunities as well as enabling good things to happen in the present.

Matt Golton is certainly missed at GWR, always seemed to get things done and always very positive, an actual railwayman which in senior positions these days is quite rare, Mark Hopwood also falls into this category too, another proper railwayman.

 

[irish_rail]

Hang on, on one hand you’ve banged many times on about how busy the London services are in Cornwall needing 9 cars all the way then on the other hand you say the “vast majority” of passengers only travel eastwards from Plymouth.

It can’t be both…

Must you twist everything? If the first train of the day (say 0505 PZ to Padd gets caped and instead starts Plymouth at 0655) and is then fully formed of a 2+8 set throughout the day then very few people are inconveniced. Why is that hard to understand? Instead, now a 5 car set would form the train throughout leading to overcrowding and potentially throughout the day if no set swap occurs at Paddington.

 

[The Ham]

Must you twist everything? If the first train of the day (say 0505 PZ to Padd gets caped and instead starts Plymouth at 0655) and is then fully formed of a 2+8 set throughout the day then very few people are inconveniced. Why is that hard to understand? Instead, now a 5 car set would form the train throughout leading to overcrowding and potentially throughout the day if no set swap occurs at Paddington.

I would argue that is a product of the management of resources rather than the length of the trains.

For example if there was a spare 5 coach train stored at Plymouth then a short formed unit from Cornwall could become a full length train from Plymouth.

If this was the case then it would be a better outcome than the days of the HST's as there would still be a service through Cornwall and a full length service between Plymouth and London.

 

[irish_rail]

I would argue that is a product of the management of resources rather than the length of the trains.

For example if there was a spare 5 coach train stored at Plymouth then a short formed unit from Cornwall could become a full length train from Plymouth.

If this was the case then it would be a better outcome than the days of the HST's as there would still be a service through Cornwall and a full length service between Plymouth and London.

Its a big IF though, certainly at present for a spare 5 car to be knocking around Laira, maybe that will change now that maintenance is to increase there.

 

[REVUpminster]

Its a big IF though, certainly at present for a spare 5 car to be knocking around Laira, maybe that will change now that maintenance is to increase there.

I thought in the timetable they were already adding and subtracting 5 car units. It always seem to happen to the 0503 ex Penzance which follows the 9 car 0640 Plymouth stopper which it then overtakes at Exeter. Only once did it not have the extra cars added and reservations cancelled but it was only half full anyway when I got it at Newton abbot.

 

[irish_rail]

I thought in the timetable they were already adding and subtracting 5 car units. It always seem to happen to the 0503 ex Penzance which follows the 9 car 0640 Plymouth stopper which it then overtakes at Exeter. Only once did it not have the extra cars added and reservations cancelled but it was only half full anyway when I got it at Newton abbot.

Yeah that one has long added 5 cars at Plymouth, and I've seen it short formed a fair few times. Tbf as its a peak time train until Reading it isn't usually overcrowded (until Reading where its the first off peak into London!).

 

[jimm]

Must you twist everything? If the first train of the day (say 0505 PZ to Padd gets caped and instead starts Plymouth at 0655) and is then fully formed of a 2+8 set throughout the day then very few people are inconveniced. Why is that hard to understand? Instead, now a 5 car set would form the train throughout leading to overcrowding and potentially throughout the day if no set swap occurs at Paddington.

Yeah that one has long added 5 cars at Plymouth, and I've seen it short formed a fair few times. Tbf as its a peak time train until Reading it isn't usually overcrowded (until Reading where its the first off peak into London!).

In the past, you told us many times over that off-peak workings from Paddington out to Hereford that became a heavily-loaded peak working into Paddington by the time they reached Oxford and Reading on the way back shouldn't be allowed to have a 9-car IET. Covid and cracking have now seen your wish granted, with 5-cars used instead as part of a reshuffle that means something like 80% of Cotswold workings must now be 5-car.

Yet here you are, bold as brass, telling us that the 05.05 from Penzance must have a 9-car or 2x5 formation, because of, er, passengers from Reading to Paddington...

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that with the 802 fleet soon moving to Laira, the odds of a second five-car set failing to materialise at Plymouth station will be greatly diminished - or even a set swap to a 9-car taking place.

Meanwhile, several Cotswold Line services that should be 9-car are now stuck with 5 - the 06.40 from Hereford being a case in point. Often full and standing from Hanborough onwards - and that would be the case further west but for the decline in regular commuting - it is best to offer up a prayer approaching Reading that the preceding and following South Wales services are both on time, otherwise people from Reading heading to London pack themselves into every nook and cranny. And some will do it anyway, rather than wait five minutes for a train they could get a seat on.

 

[irish_rail]

In the past, you told us many times over that off-peak workings from Paddington out to Hereford that became a heavily-loaded peak working into Paddington by the time they reached Oxford and Reading on the way back shouldn't be allowed to have a 9-car IET. Covid and cracking have now seen your wish granted, with 5-cars used instead as part of a reshuffle that means something like 80% of Cotswold workings must now be 5-car.

Yet here you are, bold as brass, telling us that the 05.05 from Penzance must have a 9-car or 2x5 formation, because of, er, passengers from Reading to Paddington...

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that with the 802 fleet soon moving to Laira, the odds of a second five-car set failing to materialise at Plymouth station will be greatly diminished - or even a set swap to a 9-car taking place.

Meanwhile, several Cotswold Line services that should be 9-car are now stuck with 5 - the 06.40 from Hereford being a case in point. Often full and standing from Hanborough onwards - and that would be the case further west but for the decline in regular commuting - it is best to offer up a prayer approaching Reading that the preceding and following South Wales services are both on time, otherwise people from Reading heading to London pack themselves into every nook and cranny. And some will do it anyway, rather than wait five minutes for a train they could get a seat on.

So further adds weight to the fact the Western needs longer trains. Way too many 5s and additional coaches needed. LNER seem to be sitting pretty, maybe an exchange of some of their 9s for some of our 5s to help balance things out a little. Its a shame the cotswold is suffering, I take no pleasure in seeing that and recently on here have argued frequently 7 car trains are needed. The only mitigating factor I guess is that Hanborough to London is just over an hour, so if standing is occurring it is not for huge lengths of time.

 

[jimm]

LNER are sitting pretty? That's the LNER that is carrying more passengers this year than it was in 2019-20, is it?
Start taking 9-car trains off LNER and some of their passengers won't be sitting at all.
As ever, any 'solution' you offer never involves Cornwall and the mighty metropolises of Truro, Redruth and Penzance (combined populations little more than the city of Hereford) having anything less than a 9-car train on London services, does it?
Seven may be more than five but when a service needs eight, nine or 10 coaches, putting out seven is still not the right answer - something Clarence Yard and others have been trying to tell you for years, yet you still keep parroting it out. And should such a thing exist, the instant a set swap resulted in one being seen at Plymouth, who would be the first to complain?
How is it that passengers having to stand for a single second on the way to Plymouth or beyond simply cannot be allowed but standing for more than an hour between West Oxfordshire and London is 'not for huge lengths of time'?
On Wednesday morning, people were standing from Kingham during my journey to Reading on a 5-car set and it was full and standing in the aisles from Charlbury onwards, with first class declassified. With accumulated delays to that train en route to Paddington, some will have been standing for 90 minutes.
At least someone had the gumption to put the train into platform 13 at Reading, so it was spared Reading to London passengers trying to cram themselves on board the first thing that arrives on the 10/11 island.
We all know perfectly well GWR is not going to get more coaches, indeed it is being forced to take coaches out of service by Government diktat, so now may be the time for someone to look again at 2x5 operation on a limited number of Cotswold Line trains. This may well involve some infrastructure spending in places, but making a case for that is likely to be easier than for more IET coaches.
If this is the only way to get more seats on to certain services that need them now - or boost capacity at times when travel patterns are altered, such as around Christmas or Easter - then so be it, especially as it is likely to be the only option available to GWR for the rest of the life of the IEP contract (unless someone locates the Corbyn-Johnson memorial magic money tree forest).
I can't see any other realistic option on a line that has no prospect of getting an all-day half-hourly service both ways Monday to Saturday, plus acres of empty seats laid on round the clock on 9-car IETs.

 

[irish_rail]

LNER are sitting pretty? That's the LNER that is carrying more passengers this year than it was in 2019-20, is it?
Start taking 9-car trains off LNER and some of their passengers won't be sitting at all.
As ever, any 'solution' you offer never involves Cornwall and the mighty metropolises of Truro, Redruth and Penzance (combined populations little more than the city of Hereford) having anything less than a 9-car train on London services, does it?
Seven may be more than five but when a service needs eight, nine or 10 coaches, putting out seven is still not the right answer - something Clarence Yard and others have been trying to tell you for years, yet you still keep parroting it out. And should such a thing exist, the instant a set swap resulted in one being seen at Plymouth, who would be the first to complain?
How is it that passengers having to stand for a single second on the way to Plymouth or beyond simply cannot be allowed but standing for more than an hour between West Oxfordshire and London is 'not for huge lengths of time'?
On Wednesday morning, people were standing from Kingham during my journey to Reading on a 5-car set and it was full and standing in the aisles from Charlbury onwards, with first class declassified. With accumulated delays to that train en route to Paddington, some will have been standing for 90 minutes.
At least someone had the gumption to put the train into platform 13 at Reading, so it was spared Reading to London passengers trying to cram themselves on board the first thing that arrives on the 10/11 island.
We all know perfectly well GWR is not going to get more coaches, indeed it is being forced to take coaches out of service by Government diktat, so now may be the time for someone to look again at 2x5 operation on a limited number of Cotswold Line trains. This may well involve some infrastructure spending in places, but making a case for that is likely to be easier than for more IET coaches.
If this is the only way to get more seats on to certain services that need them now - or boost capacity at times when travel patterns are altered, such as around Christmas or Easter - then so be it, especially as it is likely to be the only option available to GWR for the rest of the life of the IEP contract (unless someone locates the Corbyn-Johnson memorial magic money tree forest).
I can't see any other realistic option on a line that has no prospect of getting an all-day half-hourly service both ways Monday to Saturday, plus acres of empty seats laid on round the clock on 9-car IETs.

I agree that 10 car trains on the cotswold is a good way of keeping 5 car sets away from the south west and giving us more 9s.

The Cornish mainline acts as a railhead for the entire county, so Truro for example also includes all surrounding towns such as Falmouth etc . So the population of Cornwall is about 600k, ALL of which use the Cornish mainline as its only route east towards the north and London. 600k is quite a catchment. Its larger than almost all UK cities, many of which by the way have various routes radiating giving choice for intercity journeys.

9 car trains (or 10s) on the Penzance route is vital, whether you like it or not. And if passengers are going to suffer overcrowding then I'm afraid its your inter regional cotswold route and not my intercity west of England route. GwR are to be applauded in that at present they have called this right with the limited availability of stock they have.

And on LNER they cart a lot of fresh air on London to Retford or York stopping trains and I'm sure losing a handful of 9 cars could be tolerated provided the main anglo scottish routes (which are the growth area) are unaffected.