How could the Brigg Line service be improved; could it go to another operator?

[geoffk]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/brigg-line-quick-questions.240061/

Maybe EMR should take on the Brigg line (plus Sheffield - Lincoln) as it's an outlier for Northern. But that wouldn't change the economics of running a passenger service that much. I thought there had been a lot of investment in the line in recent years to cater for a growth in freight traffic.

 

[Class 170101]

Maybe EMR should take on the Brigg line (plus Sheffield - Lincoln) as it's an outlier for Northern. But that wouldn't change the economics of running a passenger service that much. I thought there had been a lot of investment in the line in recent years to cater for a growth in freight traffic.

It would be an outlier for EMR as well though. Services would almost certainly flip with early services from Lincoln but not Sheffield and late services from Sheffield but not Lincoln.

As previously discussed, in BR days this route was covered by Sheffield and Lincoln (and one other) train crew depots.

 

[Gathursty]

It would be an outlier for EMR as well though. Services would almost certainly flip with early services from Lincoln but not Sheffield and late services from Sheffield but not Lincoln. As previously discussed, in BR days thisd route was covered by Sheffield and Lincoln (and one other) train crew depots.

It's got to be someone's outlier however I glanced an article hinting heavily that Shapp's will remove services from some of these lines on a longer term basis to try to balance the books. Brigg may just be the start. I think the days of Parliamentaries and other quirks may finally be coming to an end. Make the most whilst you can.

 

[Llandudno]

It's got to be someone's outlier however I glanced an article hinting heavily that Shapp's will remove services from some of these lines on a longer term basis to try to balance the books. Brigg may just be the start. I think the days of Parliamentaries and other quirks may finally be coming to an end. Make the most whilst you can.

But Shapp’s isn’t this weeks Transport Minister..

Doubt any routes will be cited for closure before a General Election though, and would Sir Kier Starmer want to be the PM overseeing line and station closures…

 

[norbitonflyer]

It (Sheffield-Lincoln, and Sheffield-Brigg-Cleethorpes) would be an outlier for EMR as well though.

Not really. EMR already serve Sheffield (Norwich - Liverpool route), Worksop (Robin Hood Line), Gainsborough ("Joint Line" Doncaster-Peterborough), Barnetby-Grimsby-Cleethorpes (Newark-Cleethorpes and the Barton-on-Humber branch) and Lincoln (Joint Line and Newark-Cleethorpes).

 

[70014IronDuke]

But Shapp’s isn’t this weeks Transport Minister..

Doubt any routes will be cited for closure before a General Election though, and would Sir Kier Starmer want to be the PM overseeing line and station closures…

Shapps may not be transport minister, but from what I read (abeit from afar), what with strikes and appalling train cancellation levels, patience with things rail among the public must be at an all time low.

This won't result in the closure Euston - Manchester, but, what with the economic misery to be endured, @Gathursty could well be on the money. If proposed, I can see little sympathy to oppose what the vast majority of the population views as obscure routes getting the chop - and they don't come much more obscure than the Brigg line.

 

[IBLRG]

Be careful what you wish for or you might end up with TransPennine!

In a recent online survey for the communities of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey TransPennine actually came out as favourite to replace Northern.

Everybody is well aware of the issues with Trans Pennine that this decision was made on the basis that there is a crew, fuel and cleaning facility at Cleethorpes therefore they can provide an early morning southbound train, instead of coming from either Sheffield with Northern or Nottingham with EMR.

To cover all bases TransPennine provide a Cleethorpes to Worksop service, providing the communities with a train service and connections at Retford for the East Coast mainline, and Worksop for the Robin Hood line and services to Sheffield.

 

[AlastairFraser]

In a recent online survey for the communities of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey TransPennine actually came out as favourite to replace Northern.

Everybody is well aware of the issues with Trans Pennine that this decision was made on the basis that there is a crew, fuel and cleaning facility at Cleethorpes therefore they can provide an early morning southbound train, instead of coming from either Sheffield with Northern or Nottingham with EMR.

To cover all bases TransPennine provide a Cleethorpes to Worksop service, providing the communities with a train service and connections at Retford for the East Coast mainline, and Worksop for the Robin Hood line and services to Sheffield.

Hmm, I suppose TPE could run it, although they only run 2 other true stopper routes and they’re both more urban.
Plus TPE’s current unreliability doesn’t bode well for the usability of the limited service.

I think EMR would be the best option, but it’s up to them to decide whether to take it on or not.
Then split the Liverpool to Norwich, TPE from Manchester westward and possibly linked with another service to ensure no stock has to leave Northern as EMR’ll need less stock on the Norwich to Manchester (formerly Liverpool) to run the reduced portion and can repurpose those units to run the Brigg/Gainsborough lines.

 

[InkyScrolls]

If proposed, I can see little sympathy to oppose what the vast majority of the population views as obscure routes getting the chop - and they don't come much more obscure than the Brigg line.

Would that be the case, however if it had a more 'normal' service level? I don't know the line that well or the towns along it, but if it had, say, a two hourly service every day of the week, would the passenger numbers be able to sustain that? In other words, is it 'obscure' through accident, or through inherently low usage?

 

[Llandudno]

Hmm, I suppose TPE could run it, although they only run 2 other true stopper routes and they’re both more urban.
Plus TPE’s current unreliability doesn’t bode well for the usability of the limited service.

I think EMR would be the best option, but it’s up to them to decide whether to take it on or not.
Then split the Liverpool to Norwich, TPE from Manchester westward and possibly linked with another service to ensure no stock has to leave Northern as EMR’ll need less stock on the Norwich to Manchester (formerly Liverpool) to run the reduced portion and can repurpose those units to run the Brigg/Gainsborough lines.

For goodness sake don’t let TPE anywhere near the Nottingham - Liverpool service, at least there is a chance of EMR actually running trains west of Sheffield unlike TPE!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Would that be the case, however if it had a more 'normal' service level? I don't know the line that well or the towns along it, but if it had, say, a two hourly service every day of the week, would the passenger numbers be able to sustain that? In other words, is it 'obscure' through accident, or through inherently low usage?

A very good question that should be asked more often and possibly more widely.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Would that be the case, however if it had a more 'normal' service level? I don't know the line that well or the towns along it, but if it had, say, a two hourly service every day of the week, would the passenger numbers be able to sustain that? In other words, is it 'obscure' through accident, or through inherently low usage?

If it had one train per two hours through the week, clearly traffic would build up under normal circumstances - but (and I don't know the line or area in any detail) if you look at the populations of the Brigg line stations they are tiny, and - as long as the Scunthorpe route is available for Grimsby - Yorkshire traffic, I doubt it would be anything other than another basket case.

This is not to say I'd like to see it close, I wouldn't, but I'm trying to be realistic. If cuts are going to be made, this is an easy one, affecting very few people with any hardship - a huge temptation to show 'some results' at little political cost.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I'm intrigued what the difference is between, say, Chathill - which receives two return trips a day at roughly peak commuting times - compared to Brigg, where there is nothing on weekdays but 3 return trips all on Saturday.

If the Brigg line had 4tpd on weekdays, with a train in each direction in the morning and same again in the evening, would it be sustainable?

 

[tbtc]

Would that be the case, however if it had a more 'normal' service level? I don't know the line that well or the towns along it, but if it had, say, a two hourly service every day of the week, would the passenger numbers be able to sustain that? In other words, is it 'obscure' through accident, or through inherently low usage?

I like to look at the bus services in an area to assess whether there’s much demand/ where the demand is to

If a flow can’t sustain a commercial minibus every couple of hours then a heavy rail service seems over the top

Looking at Brigg (on BusTimes.org , so it’s hard to know what’s commercial/ tendered) there’s an hourly bus to Scunthorpe, five a day to Humberside Airport, a “demand responsive” service to local villages, a town service a couple of days a week, every couple of hours to Kirkton in Lindsay, a weekly service from Market Rasen to Scunthorpe…

… but none of that to anywhere that a train service would presumably serve - no buses to Grimsby/ Cleethorpes/ Gainsborough/ Retford or beyond, from what I can see (happy to be corrected, of course)

Looking at the roads, the fast route is east-west, taking trucks from the docks to distribution centres (and Sheffielders to the seaside at Cleethorpes!)

So what trains would you run?

I’ve seen suggestions that we should have through trains from the Barton branch, but that line struggles with a train to the more obvious destination of Grimsby, so I doubt there’s going to be much demand there

Which presumably leaves services from Sheffield/ Worksop/ Retford / Gainsborough to Grimsby/ Cleethorpes?

Arriva introduced an hourly Sheffield/ Worksop/ Retford / Gainsborough stopper, which would have been something you could extend every couple of hours to Grimsby, but the Government (aka DOR) scrapped that and slowed the Lincoln service down by making it stop everywhere west of Worksop

But if there’s no such hourly service terminating at Gainsborough now (and, it’s not coming back AFAIK), any Sheffield to Grimsby service would be a long way any require a lot of scarce DMUs to run regularly enough to provide a “normal” service level like bi-hourly (because if it only ran every four hours then we’d get complaints that the inevitably low passenger numbers weren’t fair because “it’d have more passengers if there were more trains” etc)

And it’s never going to be faster from Sheffield to Grimsby than the existing hourly Doncaster service (trains via Brigg may be overtaken given the slower route)

So maybe you only run a shuttle from Grimsby to Retford (because the Lincoln train doesn’t serve the same station in Gainsborough)? But that’s not a big destination, other than for changing into the ECML. And Grimsby already has London connections at Doncaster/ Lincoln/ Newark

Ultimately, Brigg is a place with a population of just five thousand. Someone will feel the need to point out that there’s a wider area that might drive (villages in the hinterland etc), but then those people could equally drive to Barnetby/ Scunthorpe, and those other trains stations will always get a better service than Brigg (better frequency/ fast trains to Doncaster/ Sheffield etc), so why would you drive to Brigg unless you wanted a train to Gainsborough/ Retford, and how Many people would that be?

Or, to put it another way, look at Breich. It had one DMU (generally a class 156) a day to Edinburgh, and essentially one other a day too. But then it has loads of money spent on it, the line was upgraded, it now has an hourly modern EMU (Class 385) to Edinburgh and Glasgow from about half six in the morning until about eleven at night, it’s got the perfectly decent service that people defending it from closure had demanded…

…And it’s got a whopping FIVE departing passengers a day. Statistically that’s a big increase, sure, but spending all the money upgrading the station and slowing down dozens of three coach EMUs a day (inconveniencing other passengers given the time taken to show down/ dwell/ get back to line speed) … All for five people a day? Seems like overkill to me

I’ve argued in the past that sometimes a line closing is the best thing to ever happen to it because its supporters will paint a picture of it as this hugely important route that would be massively busy today if only Beeching/ Marples/ FBI etc hasn’t conspired to close it. So Skipton to Lancaster gets a Sprinter every couple of hours and underwhelming passenger numbers, Skipton to Carlisle gets a Sprinter every couple of hours and underwhelming passenger numbers.., but the SELRAP campaign to reopen Skipton to Colne suggests that their favourite line would sustain three EMUs an hour with through services to Manchester Airport/ Hull/ Liverpool etc - a closed line has unlimited potential whereas an open line will never match that

It feels like the same is true of Breich - when there was one train a day you could always claim that it’d have tens of thousands of passengers a year from a wide railhead “if only” it had a decent service, it’d be unfair to close it without giving it a chance, we need a trial where it has at least an hourly service etc etc… but if you give that and only four more people start using it then do people finally accept that it only had that token service for years because it had such a rubbish business case (and should probably be closed)? Or do they demand it gets a half hourly train instead? Find new excuses?

If you do find a couple of spare DMUs then I think I’d be off much more use too North Lincolnshire to extend some of the Doncaster - Scunthorpe stoppers through to Barnetby/ Grimsby/ Cleethorpes, doubling the frequency east of Scunthorpe. But it’s always going to be an area of fairly low population density, where heavy rail will struggle

 

[LittleAH]

One of the problems that Lincolnshire has is really poor public transport, even for more major conurbations that Brigg. So I can understand the desire for a regular rail service coming into the area for Brigg, especially how economic prosperity can follow the railway in certain instances. However, there are bigger problems in Lincolnshire for bigger places. For example, I went down to the Lincs Wolds railway last year and was astonished to find the last bus between Grimsby and Louth was as 5pm. For two towns with populations of around 90k and 20 k (and some quite large villages and new builds going up in between), for your only bus link to finish before some even finish work is really not good.

The question for Brigg is around potential passenger flows. What jobs are there in the area, education etc. What's the age demographic too. From a quick look, it doesn't look remotely feasible. Perhaps a trial could be done to extend the four trains per day that run from Sheffield to Gainsborough Central onto Grimsby to see what passenger number could be tempted by a peak time morning/evening service. I know there's a vocal group on Twitter, but reality and cost (especially these days) mean it's not a goer.

 

[30907]

I'm intrigued what the difference is between, say, Chathill - which receives two return trips a day at roughly peak commuting times - compared to Brigg, where there is nothing on weekdays but 3 return trips all on Saturday.

Chathill (etc) is served in marginal time by extending a service that would run to Morpeth anyway.

If the Brigg line had 4tpd on weekdays, with a train in each direction in the morning and same again in the evening, would it be sustainable?

The marginal time equivalent would be roughly 0620 and 1754 ex Sheffield to Brigg and return, giving an 0917 into SHF which isn't much use (it would be possible to cover the Barnsley-Sheffield leg of the present 0658 ex SHF.).

There isn't an obvious spare unit at the Grimsby end to provide a service that way.

However, the major issue is that the only freight services appear to run on night shift, so you have to cover the signalling costs as well.

Then the question about demand comes in, as others have mentioned. I would only add that any commuter traffic from Brigg has only ever warranted services as far as Retford (1958 timetable gives an 8.17 arrival there which follows a Lincoln-Sheffield so missing the connection!).

 

[ChrisC]

Arriva introduced an hourly Sheffield/ Worksop/ Retford / Gainsborough stopper, which would have been something you could extend every couple of hours to Grimsby, but the Government (aka DOR) scrapped that and slowed the Lincoln service down by making it stop everywhere west of Worksop

But if there’s no such hourly service terminating at Gainsborough now (and, it’s not coming back AFAIK)

For the short time it lasted the hourly Sheffield-Worksop-Retford-Gainsborough stopper was extremely useful but it didn’t really have time to build up any passenger numbers before it was cut during Covid.

It certainly helped to give Lincoln a slightly faster journey to Sheffield by enabling the Lincoln trains to run fast between Worksop and Sheffield. Even better it actually provided good connections at Worksop with the Robin Hood Line. Just for a short time passengers from the Mansfield area were able to travel north via Worksop without a long wait for a connection. Journeys from Mansfield to many destinations in the north via Worksop were actually being shown on the journey planners rather than journeys involving first travelling south via Nottingham.

 

[D365]

For the short time it lasted the hourly Sheffield-Worksop-Retford-Gainsborough stopper was extremely useful but it didn’t really have time to build up any passenger numbers before it was cut during Covid.

It certainly helped to give Lincoln a slightly faster journey to Sheffield by enabling the Lincoln trains to run fast between Worksop and Sheffield. Even better it actually provided good connections at Worksop with the Robin Hood Line. Just for a short time passengers from the Mansfield area were able to travel north via Worksop without a long wait for a connection. Journeys from Mansfield to many destinations in the north via Worksop were actually being shown on the journey planners rather than journeys involving first travelling south via Nottingham.

Agree it's very disappointing, and goes to show how important it is to build up a mix of stopping and semi-fast services on regional routes.

 

[IBLRG]

Some interesting contributions to this debate.

For those who didn't know the Brigg line used to be the main line between Manchester Sheffield and Cleethorpes via the Woodhead route, which used to have an hourly service until 1968.

The communities of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey are realistic, they are not expecting a frequent service but one that can connect them with other rail hubs to take them to employment etc etc.

If nobody has ever been to Brigg then I suggest they go on the train and spend a few hours there, the population might be small town has a fantastic reputation because it is full of local independent shops and people come from miles around, when the trains did run the passenger flow was from Cleethorpes to Grimsby, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Gainsborough, Retford, Worksop, Sheffield and stations down the Robin Hood line.

You can actually work the Brigg line with one unit.

Cleethorpes to Worksop would provide these communities with a service, and also provide connections at Retford with East Coast mainline and Worksop with the the Robin Hood line to Nottingham and Mansfield.

Coming from Sheffield Midland is a bit more difficult because of the restricted paths at Nunnery Main Line Junction just north of the station, however you could take a train from Sheffield and turn it around at Barnetby, thus again providing the communities with the service.

The emphasis is always how do you provide the people of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey with a train service but using the less risk it is possible, as both suggestions above have highlighted this could be done as long as the services connect with other services to increase footfall.

With regards to sending a TransPennine service via Brigg rather than Scunthorpe and Doncaster, the timetable that Northern runs should not be taken seriously, as there is quite a lot of extra pathing allowance etc etc added.

If you were to take a TPE train leaving Cleethorpes and send it to Sheffield, with a calling pattern of Grimsby Town, Habrough, Barnetby, Brigg, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Gainsborough Central, Retford Low Level, Worksop....and the fast to Sheffield Midland, it would take exactly the same time as if you went via Scunthorpe and Doncaster.

On a sad note, if the passenger Services do return on January the 14th this will be 54 weeks since the last passenger service called at Brigg and Kirton-in-Lindsey.

NO communities deserve to go that long without a passenger service !

An attachment is included again if anybody would like to travel on the Brigg Line and visit Brigg

 

[ChrisC]

The communities of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey are realistic, they are not expecting a frequent service but one that can connect them with other rail hubs to take them to employment etc etc.

If nobody has ever been to Brigg then I suggest they go on the train and spend a few hours there, the population might be small town has a fantastic reputation because it is full of local independent shops and people come from miles around, when the trains did run the passenger flow was from Cleethorpes to Grimsby, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Gainsborough, Retford, Worksop, Sheffield and stations down the Robin Hood line.

You can actually work the Brigg line with one unit.

Cleethorpes to Worksop would provide these communities with a service, and also provide connections at Retford with East Coast mainline and Worksop with the the Robin Hood line to Nottingham and Mansfield.

Coming from Sheffield Midland is a bit more difficult because of the restricted paths at Nunnery Main Line Junction just north of the station, however you could take a train from Sheffield and turn it around at Barnetby, thus again providing the communities with the service.

The emphasis is always how do you provide the people of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey with a train service but using the less risk it is possible, as both suggestions above have highlighted this could be done as long as the services connect with other services to increase footfall.

It’s a line that I have never travelled along and so I started to plan a trip for one Saturday in the next couple of months. I don’t live too far from the Robin Hood Line and decided to park at Hucknall Station where there is a large free car park and have a trip to Brigg. The Day Return Fare, with my Senior Railcard, is unbelievably reasonable at only £8.40 and I would get about 2 hours 20 minutes to have a good look around Brigg. It all looked so easy and almost too good to be true. Then I looked at the timetable. The Brigg Line trains do not connect with the Robin Hood Line trains to and from Nottingham and Mansfield at all conveniently. In both directions the connection is missed by just a few minutes meaning that I am going to have a wait of almost one hour at Worksop in both directions. On the return journey the connection is missed by just 3 minutes.

 

[JD2168]

Some interesting contributions to this debate.

For those who didn't know the Brigg line used to be the main line between Manchester Sheffield and Cleethorpes via the Woodhead route, which used to have an hourly service until 1968.

The communities of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey are realistic, they are not expecting a frequent service but one that can connect them with other rail hubs to take them to employment etc etc.

If nobody has ever been to Brigg then I suggest they go on the train and spend a few hours there, the population might be small town has a fantastic reputation because it is full of local independent shops and people come from miles around, when the trains did run the passenger flow was from Cleethorpes to Grimsby, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Gainsborough, Retford, Worksop, Sheffield and stations down the Robin Hood line.

You can actually work the Brigg line with one unit.

Cleethorpes to Worksop would provide these communities with a service, and also provide connections at Retford with East Coast mainline and Worksop with the the Robin Hood line to Nottingham and Mansfield.

Coming from Sheffield Midland is a bit more difficult because of the restricted paths at Nunnery Main Line Junction just north of the station, however you could take a train from Sheffield and turn it around at Barnetby, thus again providing the communities with the service.

The emphasis is always how do you provide the people of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey with a train service but using the less risk it is possible, as both suggestions above have highlighted this could be done as long as the services connect with other services to increase footfall.

With regards to sending a TransPennine service via Brigg rather than Scunthorpe and Doncaster, the timetable that Northern runs should not be taken seriously, as there is quite a lot of extra pathing allowance etc etc added.

If you were to take a TPE train leaving Cleethorpes and send it to Sheffield, with a calling pattern of Grimsby Town, Habrough, Barnetby, Brigg, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Gainsborough Central, Retford Low Level, Worksop....and the fast to Sheffield Midland, it would take exactly the same time as if you went via Scunthorpe and Doncaster.

On a sad note, if the passenger Services do return on January the 14th this will be 54 weeks since the last passenger service called at Brigg and Kirton-in-Lindsey.

NO communities deserve to go that long without a passenger service !

An attachment is included again if anybody would like to travel on the Brigg Line and visit Brigg

The idea of the TPE train on this route as you have suggested would restore the second train per hour & the fast one between Sheffield & Worksop/Gainsborough, something which has not returned since COVID lockdowns began.

 

[RT4038]

On a sad note, if the passenger Services do return on January the 14th this will be 54 weeks since the last passenger service called at Brigg and Kirton-in-Lindsey.

NO communities deserve to go that long without a passenger service !

There are plenty of places of the size of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey who have not had any trains for 54 years, let alone 54 weeks!

 

[Bevan Price]

It won't happen. Nobody will ever pay for it.
But might the Brigg line have been more usefully served if trains could have run to/from Lincoln (via a never-built east to south curve at Gainsborough) ?

 

[IBLRG]

It’s a line that I have never travelled along and so I started to plan a trip for one Saturday in the next couple of months. I don’t live too far from the Robin Hood Line and decided to park at Hucknall Station where there is a large free car park and have a trip to Brigg. The Day Return Fare, with my Senior Railcard, is unbelievably reasonable at only £8.40 and I would get about 2 hours 20 minutes to have a good look around Brigg. It all looked so easy and almost too good to be true. Then I looked at the timetable. The Brigg Line trains do not connect with the Robin Hood Line trains to and from Nottingham and Mansfield at all conveniently. In both directions the connection is missed by just a few minutes meaning that I am going to have a wait of almost one hour at Worksop in both directions. On the return journey the connection is missed by just 3 minutes.

There was a concertive effort by the then East Midlands Trains to improve ticketing from the Robin Hood line onto the Brigg line and from Kirton in Lindsey and Brigg to Market Rasen and Lincoln.

1 top tip is that if you go from say Mansfield to Cleethorpes if you split the ticket at Brigg it will save you around £10.

The incompetence of connections at Worksop have been highlighted for many years with everybody waiting for everybody else to make a decision.

East Midlands railways obviously cannot retime the Robin Hood line services because there is a tight passing section on the single line.

There are some absolute bargain fares from stations outside the Brigg Line remit area to travel on the line, but we are not publicise these because they will be taken down.

People in Gainsborough would love to travel to Brigg but the £10 return fare puts people off, and the train operator has no interest in retiming the services or bringing in some sort of promotion to increase footfall.

Hence why they have to go.

 

[daodao]

the Brigg line used to be the main line between Manchester Sheffield and Cleethorpes

Exactly; it formed part of the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway's original main line from Manchester to Grimsby, built primarily to facilitate freight transport between the port of Grimsby and the booming commercial centre of Manchester. Its driving force for much of the latter half of the 19th century was a Mancunian, Sir Edward Watkin. The line via Scunthorpe was only opened in 1866 to facilitate exploitation of ironstone deposits at Frodingham and development of the associated steelworks. It was only with the anticipated opening of the London extension (now regarded as its main line) that in 1897 the company changed its name to the Great Central Railway.

Sadly, neither freight nor passenger traffic now justifies the need to retain the Brigg line, as the remaining freight traffic, primarily to/from the Immingham area, can be catered for by the remaining 2 ex-Great Central lines via Scunthorpe and Market Rasen. However, if the passenger service on this ex-Great Central main line is to be retained and developed, then it would be better if all passenger services on the ex-Great Central lines that survive in historic Lincolnshire are run by a single TOC. IMO, this should be the East Midlands franchise, which could also provide all the fast trains from Sheffield to Liverpool. The unwieldy Northern TOC needs to be broken up with various services hived off, and the appalling TPE liquidated.

 

[tbtc]

For the short time it lasted the hourly Sheffield-Worksop-Retford-Gainsborough stopper was extremely useful but it didn’t really have time to build up any passenger numbers before it was cut during Covid.

It certainly helped to give Lincoln a slightly faster journey to Sheffield by enabling the Lincoln trains to run fast between Worksop and Sheffield. Even better it actually provided good connections at Worksop with the Robin Hood Line. Just for a short time passengers from the Mansfield area were able to travel north via Worksop without a long wait for a connection. Journeys from Mansfield to many destinations in the north via Worksop were actually being shown on the journey planners rather than journeys involving first travelling south via Nottingham.

Agreed, it was a real benefit and is now a real loss - the Lincoln service should never be stopping at little stations like Darnall every hour, connections at Worksop and Retford are much better with two trains per hour… but this route doesn’t fall neatly into one boundary (it’s not all in “the north” or “The midlands”, South Yorkshire has a PTE but it’s a big issue for Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire, it’s at the fringes of Northern’s messy map of services, there’s no real “ownership”, no incentive to make things better, the OLR presumably think they can get away with making this a permanent cut)

If you were to take a TPE train leaving Cleethorpes and send it to Sheffield, with a calling pattern of Grimsby Town, Habrough, Barnetby, Brigg, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Gainsborough Central, Retford Low Level, Worksop....and the fast to Sheffield Midland, it would take exactly the same time as if you went via Scunthorpe and Doncaster

So going back to the two trains per hour from Sheffield to Retford that we had under Arriva (before the OLR cuts), but with the Lincoln service being all stops west of Worksop)?

It won't happen. Nobody will ever pay for it.
But might the Brigg line have been more usefully served if trains could have run to/from Lincoln (via a never-built east to south curve at Gainsborough) ?

I think you are right

Too late now of course but a Scunthorpe - Brigg - Gainsborough - Lincoln alignment would have been a lot more use, in terms of where local demand is - maybe such a chord would have even encouraged the idea of a railway line over the proposed Humber Bridge, to provide a Lincoln - Hull service? (Since the case for Rail over the river was hampered in part by the fact that there was no service to extend/ divert, other than taking the Hull- Doncaster trains away from Goole)

if the passenger service on this ex-Great Central main line is to be retained and developed, then it would be better if all passenger services on the ex-Great Central lines that survive in historic Lincolnshire are run by a single TOC. IMO, this should be the East Midlands franchise, which could also provide all the fast trains from Sheffield to Liverpool

I agree with the above, one TOC south of the Humber would make a lot more sense (Doncaster to Scunthorpe, Barton branch, Cleethorpes to Liverpool, services to Newark/ Nottingham, Robin Hood line, Lincoln to Sheffield… put it all under one franchise)

 

[ChrisC]

Agreed, it was a real benefit and is now a real loss - the Lincoln service should never be stopping at little stations like Darnall every hour, connections at Worksop and Retford are much better with two trains per hour… but this route doesn’t fall neatly into one boundary (it’s not all in “the north” or “The midlands”, South Yorkshire has a PTE but it’s a big issue for Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire, it’s at the fringes of Northern’s messy map of services, there’s no real “ownership”, no incentive to make things better, the OLR presumably think they can get away with making this a permanent cut).

The Sheffield to Gainsborough Central trains which have been cut had only been running for just under a year before they were withdrawn during the Covid lockdown. EMR did the same on the Robin Hood Line with the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains, now leaving the southern half of the line, including the large town of Mansfield, with only 1tph instead of 2tph. Mansfield has had 2tph to Nottingham for over 20 years, yet EMR which is not an OLR also seems to have got away with what is now looking like a permanent cut.

 

[IBLRG]

Agreed, it was a real benefit and is now a real loss - the Lincoln service should never be stopping at little stations like Darnall every hour, connections at Worksop and Retford are much better with two trains per hour… but this route doesn’t fall neatly into one boundary (it’s not all in “the north” or “The midlands”, South Yorkshire has a PTE but it’s a big issue for Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire, it’s at the fringes of Northern’s messy map of services, there’s no real “ownership”, no incentive to make things better, the OLR presumably think they can get away with making this a permanent cut)



So going back to the two trains per hour from Sheffield to Retford that we had under Arriva (before the OLR cuts), but with the Lincoln service being all stops west of Worksop)?



I think you are right

Too late now of course but a Scunthorpe - Brigg - Gainsborough - Lincoln alignment would have been a lot more use, in terms of where local demand is - maybe such a chord would have even encouraged the idea of a railway line over the proposed Humber Bridge, to provide a Lincoln - Hull service? (Since the case for Rail over the river was hampered in part by the fact that there was no service to extend/ divert, other than taking the Hull- Doncaster trains away from Goole)



I agree with the above, one TOC south of the Humber would make a lot more sense (Doncaster to Scunthorpe, Barton branch, Cleethorpes to Liverpool, services to Newark/ Nottingham, Robin Hood line, Lincoln to Sheffield… put it all under one franchise)

We don't know what the thinking is from the Department for transport about the Sheffield to Lincoln and Cleethorpes via Brigg line.

There is definitely a demand for an every 30-minutes service between Sheffield Worksop and Retford for most of the day.

The problem will always be as you are well aware pathing over Nunnery Main Junction, hence why it is better to have a Brigg line service come from Cleethorpes, as there is a spare path each hour at XX10 which would give the service a connection at Retford for London and also Worksop for the Robin Hood line.

Other ideas put forward is that you extend the present Robin Hood line to run to Lincoln in place of Northern, thus giving you some sort of circle service from Nottingham to Nottingham.

Darnall station is South Yorkshire least used station and you can see why, when there is a frequent bus service into the city centre from the end of the road.

 

[ricoblade]

I see from the Independent Brigg Line Rail Group that Northern ia proposing removing the Saturday service completely and reducing the Mon-Fri to one service each way per day "to contibute to the 10% savings demanded by the DfT".

Seems like the pre-cursor to closing the line completely from the tried and tested Reduce Service >Reduce Demand loop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see from the Independent Brigg Line Rail Group that Northern ia proposing removing the Saturday service completely and reducing the Mon-Fri to one service each way per day "to contibute to the 10% savings demanded by the DfT".

Seems like the pre-cursor to closing the line completely from the tried and tested Reduce Service >Reduce Demand loop.

So is this actual confirmation from Northern that the East service reductions are the 10% cuts, and I guess that the West ones just haven't been worked out yet? Or are they just surmising?

If that's the only line we're basically losing, and e.g. Barton-on-Humber is safe*, then that's definitely not as bad as it could be.

* Ah, I forgot, Barton is EMR, their times aren't in yet.