CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[pokemonsuper9]

Are they not still running on the Conwy Valley Line?

The first place they were running was that line on 14th November
But I haven't noticed many on RTT going down there in recent days

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The first place they were running was that line on 14th November
But I haven't noticed many on RTT going down there in recent days

It's back to a 150 or 153 now until 197 is the main traction in North Wales bar the Cardiff Holyhead and Mk4s, so they don't have to do a special ecs from Chester each day to get a unit there.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's back to a 150 or 153 now until 197 is the main traction in North Wales bar the Cardiff Holyhead and Mk4s, so they don't have to do a special ecs from Chester each day to get a unit there.

The 150 today ran all the way from Crewe so wouldn't anything from Chester just need a very slight change?

Realtime Trains | 5D04 0312 Crewe C.S. to Llandudno Junction | 22/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 5D04 0312 departure from Crewe C.S. to Llandudno Junction on 22/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The 150 today ran all the way from Crewe so wouldn't anything from Chester just need a very slight change?

Realtime Trains | 5D04 0312 Crewe C.S. to Llandudno Junction | 22/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 5D04 0312 departure from Crewe C.S. to Llandudno Junction on 22/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Probably yes but I think they likely want to stable the unit at junction in the future so maybe thats why.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think the same 4 trains were out on Monday 19th.

Why aren't we seeing more? Are not enough drivers trained but they have more units than staff? There's 7 listed as active on raillog.

 

[craigybagel]

The 150 today ran all the way from Crewe so wouldn't anything from Chester just need a very slight change?

Realtime Trains | 5D04 0312 Crewe C.S. to Llandudno Junction | 22/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 5D04 0312 departure from Crewe C.S. to Llandudno Junction on 22/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It normally starts off from Crewe with several units, dropping some off both at Chester and Llandudno Junction. When it was a 197 , you ended up with 2 separate ECS moves down the coast. It also needed a set swap on the evening Llandudno - Crewe service so that the 197 ended up back in Chester.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It normally starts off from Crewe with several units, dropping some off both at Chester and Llandudno Junction. When it was a 197 , you ended up with 2 separate ECS moves down the coast. It also needed a set swap on the evening Llandudno - Crewe service so that the 197 ended up back in Chester.

I guess the two movement problem will be solved by more 197s into service which will just happen with time.

 

[DBS92042]

A 3 car 197 has departed Donnington for Basford Hall not so long ago as 6Q98 - any idea on the number please?

An unnumbered 197111 went from Basford Hall to Wolverton today, so presumably it was this one that was moved yesterday

 

[L401CJF]

Why aren't we seeing more? Are not enough drivers trained but they have more units than staff? There's 7 listed as active on raillog.

Most drivers and guards are now trained at Holyhead/Junction and Chester. Crewe don't sign them yet (not sure about Shrewsbury).

While they're new they've got managers/instructors/trainers out "floor walking" while staff get used to working them. Basically there for support and advice getting used to new systems etc.

Once staff are used to working them I'd imagine more will be rolled out - basically there are not enough managers/instructors/trainers to work any extra, which would cause issues if a 197 rolls up with nobody to assist and the allocated crew havnt worked one before.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Most drivers and guards are now trained at Holyhead/Junction and Chester. Crewe don't sign them yet (not sure about Shrewsbury).

While they're new they've got managers/instructors/trainers out "floor walking" while staff get used to working them. Basically there for support and advice getting used to new systems etc.

Once staff are used to working them I'd imagine more will be rolled out - basically there are not enough managers/instructors/trainers to work any extra, which would cause issues if a 197 rolls up with nobody to assist and the allocated crew havnt worked one before.

So once the current drivers are used to it (And more training of other drivers is complete) we should see a decent rise in operations, especially once all necessary training is done leading to more trainers available for early entry "floor walking".
So as more training is done and drivers become used to working them we'll see them come into service faster and faster? (hopefully Cambrian by the summer for my sake)

 

[anamyd]

So as more training is done and drivers become used to working them we'll see them come into service faster and faster? (hopefully Cambrian by the summer for my sake)

197 driver training will have to take place on the Cambrian in the next ~6 months before 197s can enter service on the Cambrian in the next ~6 months. There hasn't even been much testing to my knowledge - 197003 was dragged to Machynlleth in late May 2022, then it went to Aberystwyth one night (to my knowledge), then may or may not (I'm not sure but I'd love to know) have done some more testing on several nights on the Shrewsbury-Machynlleth section and the Cambrian Coast.

 

[Anonymous10]

So once the current drivers are used to it (And more training of other drivers is complete) we should see a decent rise in operations, especially once all necessary training is done leading to more trainers available for early entry "floor walking".
So as more training is done and drivers become used to working them we'll see them come into service faster and faster? (hopefully Cambrian by the summer for my sake)

Won't be on cambrian till 2024

 

[craigybagel]

I guess the two movement problem will be solved by more 197s into service which will just happen with time.

Exactly. 197s to Blaneau will return when there are more 197s in North Wales and it becomes less of an oddball. It presumably won't need to come empty from Crewe at that point as well.

Most drivers and guards are now trained at Holyhead/Junction and Chester. Crewe don't sign them yet (not sure about Shrewsbury).

There's a small but growing number at Crewe that sign them, and training is taking place there for the rest as rapidly as possible. I'm not sure if Shrewsbury have started yet but if not I'm sure it'll happen soon. Realistically though Cardiff need to sign them before you see any big changes outside of North Wales.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

do we have any expected time periods for addition to lines
We could say
back on Conwy Valley any day really
Holyhead I don't see any reason they couldn't roll that out soon
Borderlands might be sooner given 230 delay
Shrewsbury would definitely rely on training so idk
Same with Cambrian but that also needs the ETCS units
South Wales whenever Cardiff sign them

I would want someone who can give even rough estimates to give ideas, I have no idea when could be possible.

 

[craigybagel]

do we have any expected time periods for addition to lines
We could say
back on Conwy Valley any day really
Holyhead I don't see any reason they couldn't roll that out soon
Borderlands might be sooner given 230 delay
Shrewsbury would definitely rely on training so idk
Same with Cambrian but that also needs the ETCS units
South Wales whenever Cardiff sign them

I would want someone who can give even rough estimates to give ideas, I have no idea when could be possible.

Holyhead is more complicated than you'd think, since most services either interwork with the Cambrian through Birmingham, or go all the way to Cardiff.
Borderlands is also complicated, there are unspecified issues that mean they can't be introduced there just yet.
It seems to me that for the next few months we're not likely to see any more new routes, but rather an expansion of the number of diagrams worked on existing routes. Even the relatively simple looking Crewe - Chester shuttle sees guards from 6 different depots work it during the day, so it's a hard one to change over.

I could be wrong though - and you'll struggle to find anyone posting here who's in a position to speak for definite.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Holyhead-Manchester Airport trains would seem to be an easy extension for 197s, but it really needs 3-car (or maybe 2x2-car).
However it would need units outstationed at Holyhead.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I could be wrong though - and you'll struggle to find anyone posting here who's in a position to speak for definite.

yeah definite would be hard, I just wanted rough ideas, although it'd probably be decently hard to guess even with more inside info.
Particularly for the Cambrian because I want them on their by the summer as I'm getting rather bored of 158s from locally and would much rather spend 4 hours on a 197 than a 158.

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Won't be on cambrian till 2024

Do you have any more info on that estimate

197 driver training will have to take place on the Cambrian in the next ~6 months before 197s can enter service on the Cambrian in the next ~6 months. There hasn't even been much testing to my knowledge

and we have two separate very far apart estimates, which I'm more inclined to trust the 6 month figure because more info given (and because I hope)

 

[SuperLuke2334]

yeah definite would be hard, I just wanted rough ideas, although it'd probably be decently hard to guess even with more inside info.
Particularly for the Cambrian because I want them on their by the summer as I'm getting rather bored of 158s from locally and would much rather spend 4 hours on a 197 than a 158.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==


Do you have any more info on that estimate

and we have two separate very far apart estimates, which I'm more inclined to trust the 6 month figure because more info given (and because I hope)

The cambrian will be the last place that sees 197s due to the difficult transition from old ETCS versions to new versions. Therefore it is more likely that crew training won't start there until the second half of 2023 at the earliest and probably won't enter service until 2024.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The cambrian will be the last place that sees 197s due to the difficult transition from old ETCS versions to new versions. Therefore it is more likely that crew training won't start there until the second half of 2023 at the earliest and probably won't enter service until 2024.

Ah alright
So on my trip in summer I stand a chance of seeing 197s on the Cambrian, just not in passenger service?
(hopefully I could end up on one connecting e.g. Crewe - Shrewsbury)

 

[Mordac]

The cambrian will be the last place that sees 197s due to the difficult transition from old ETCS versions to new versions. Therefore it is more likely that crew training won't start there until the second half of 2023 at the earliest and probably won't enter service until 2024.

Does this mean that, due to interworking with the Holyhead services, we won't see them in Brum until then, or is there a plan to break the interworking and get them on the Holyheads before then?

 

[craigybagel]

The Holyhead-Manchester Airport trains would seem to be an easy extension for 197s, but it really needs 3-car (or maybe 2x2-car).
However it would need units outstationed at Holyhead.

Even those would require some picking apart of the diagrams. The morning service from Holyhead is a 158 that ends up in Birmingham later on.

yeah definite would be hard, I just wanted rough ideas, although it'd probably be decently hard to guess even with more inside info.
Particularly for the Cambrian because I want them on their by the summer as I'm getting rather bored of 158s from locally and would much rather spend 4 hours on a 197 than a 158.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==


and we have two separate very far apart estimates, which I'm more inclined to trust the 6 month figure because more info given (and because I hope)

Go with the latter date, it's much more realistic. And TfW have said from day 1 that the Cambrian would be the last place to see 197s.

The cambrian will be the last place that sees 197s due to the difficult transition from old ETCS versions to new versions. Therefore it is more likely that crew training won't start there until the second half of 2023 at the earliest and probably won't enter service until 2024.

The last I heard, only two ETCS fitted units had been delivered anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does this mean that, due to interworking with the Holyhead services, we won't see them in Brum until then, or is there a plan to break the interworking and get them on the Holyheads before then?

I thought the new hourly Aberystwyth removed that interworking - does it not?

 

[craigybagel]

I thought the new hourly Aberystwyth removed that interworking - does it not?

If you're going by the proposed December 2023 timetables for most of the day the extra Aberystwyth's are portion worked with the Holyheads.

 

[The_Train]

An unnumbered 197111 went from Basford Hall to Wolverton today, so presumably it was this one that was moved yesterday

Yes it was confirmed as 111 - didn't realise it had moved on to Wolverton though so thanks for confirming this

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Why aren't we seeing more? Are not enough drivers trained but they have more units than staff? There's 7 listed as active on raillog.

Just for clarity on this, I update a new unit to "Active" on UK Rail Log once they enter service and this is in no way indicative of how regularly they are used afterwards. So I may have 7 showing as active but doesn't mean they are all currently required or used regularly but more that there are 7 available for service as I don't have access to diagram information nor do I have the time to update to this sort of level

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Realtime Trains | 1H92 1643 Llandudno to Manchester Airport | 23/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1H92 1643 departure from Llandudno to Manchester Airport on 23/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Can 175s and 197s couple or did someone make a typo somewhere?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Looks like today
Airport - Llandudno = 004, 006+015, 013 (cancelled due to problems with traction equipment),
Chester - Liverpool = 010

 

[43096]

Realtime Trains | 1H92 1643 Llandudno to Manchester Airport | 23/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1H92 1643 departure from Llandudno to Manchester Airport on 23/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

View attachment 125629
Can 175s and 197s couple or did someone make a typo somewhere?

No, they can’t couple in service. Probably one set allocated to the service initially and then changed to the second set, but first set not de-allocated.

 

[Philip]

Draft 2023 timetables

TfW have posted their planned timetables for late 2023 when it's hoped all the 197s should be in service. This will see them on almost every route on the network, including those routes in South Wales that should eventually receive Stadlers. It also sees some, but not all of the planned timetable improvements expected in 2024.

Unless there's a mistake it looks like TfW are planning to have two LHCS diagrams for the Manchester-North Wales services, 16:27 and 17:27 from Manchester Airport both colour-coded as mk4 sets.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unless there's a mistake it looks like TfW are planning to have two LHCS diagrams for the Manchester-North Wales services, 16:27 and 17:27 from Manchester Airport both colour-coded as mk4 sets.

No they’re not… they’re colour-coded as 5-197…

 

[43096]

Unless there's a mistake it looks like TfW are planning to have two LHCS diagrams for the Manchester-North Wales services, 16:27 and 17:27 from Manchester Airport both colour-coded as mk4 sets.

There is a mistake: it's your eyesight! If you look they're an orange-y colour which is 5-197. If you look at the relevant tables for the Marches, you'll see the pink is very distinctive.

 

[Philip]

No they’re not… they’re colour-coded as 5-197…

Apologies! The darker shade for the times mentioned looked a bit more pink than orange, but just seen the Manchester-South Wales mk4 services and they're a much clearer shade of pink.