Another fantastic day with Avanti

[The Prisoner]

Had advance tickets today with the family on the 1302 Euston to Chester, which was cancelled due to lack of staff.

Advised to catch the 1333 Manchester service and change at Crewe. This set off some 15 late due to the inbound service being delayed, and got slightly later on the journey up, which would have meant missing the 1521 Crewe - Chester shuttle and having to wait for the next service at 1621.

Then an Avanti miracle happened. Train Manager Jack took to the PA to let us all know that that TfW control had agreed to hold that 1521 at Crewe for us.

Now, the cynical amongst you may point out that so they should do.....the train had around 150 passengers on it heading to Chester who had assumedly been displaced from the canned 1302, who would have ended up at their destination the best part of two hours later had the 1521 been set on it's merry way minutes before our service arrived. In the end we were held outside Crewe for a few minutes so the TfW service left around 10 late.

Knowing the railway as I do I'm going to give praise for some common sense being applied for a change between TOCs. The Chester - Crewe shuttle heads back and forth all day on a relatively tight turn around at both ends, and TfW holding it sent the return journey out late.

In reality Avanti need binning off the Chester and N Wales route though - since the new timetable less than half of the services actually reach Chester, let alone N Wales. But credit where it is due for some startling common sense today.

 

[Sheridan]

In reality Avanti need binning off the Chester and N Wales route though - since the new timetable less than half of the services actually reach Chester, let alone N Wales. But credit where it is due for some startling common sense today.

This is an understandable response (I can’t imagine many passengers would disagree), but what is the alternative? The coast does need these trains (when they run), or TfW services end up rammed and then they get the blame.

 

[zwk500]

This is an understandable response (I can’t imagine many passengers would disagree), but what is the alternative? The coast does need these trains (when they run), or TfW services end up rammed and then they get the blame.

Best option for now is probably splitting the service at Crewe, as they did through COVID. Hardly ideal though, especially for people who need to make the change at Crewe.

 

[Sheridan]

Best option for now is probably splitting the service at Crewe, as they did through COVID. Hardly ideal though, especially for people who need to make the change at Crewe.

I’d agree with that, assuming it did lead to a reliable service. With the problems they have across the company, I’m not even sure if that is possible at the moment.

 

[Bikeman78]

Then an Avanti miracle happened. Train Manager Jack took to the PA to let us all know that that TfW control had agreed to hold that 1521 at Crewe for us.

To be fair, Avanti and TfW often help each other out at Crewe or Chester.

 

[The Prisoner]

This is an understandable response (I can’t imagine many passengers would disagree), but what is the alternative? The coast does need these trains (when they run), or TfW services end up rammed and then they get the blame.

I'm all for the convenience of a regular Chester/N Wales direct service to Euston. It was heavily patronised pre covid (the 0935 for example from Chester to Euston was often standing room only on departure).

But this is a classic case of "build it and they will come" in reverse: Avanti and Covid have dismantled the direct services to the point where the customers seem to have left in droves due to lack of capacity and poor connectivity at Crewe over the last few years draining confidence from the service.

There are various well documented threads on here as to the xx35 former direct services from Chester being cut short and connecting into fresh air at Crewe from Summer 2020 until recently making the service unusable, and the lack of all but a handful of direct services for two years has removed any semblance of affordable advance fares in any class.

Now nine of the direct services have been restored things should be better, but of all the days I have been watching 4/9 actually running the complete Chester to Euston run is the best I have seen, whilst typically only one or two out of four are making it from Holyhead.

Customer confidence in the route is shot.

My solution would be for Avanti to stop serving Chester and the coast. Hand the new 80x class to TFW and allow them to operate a reliable Crewe to Holyhead service with them to connect into the WCML properly at Crewe. This would add capacity to the coast, keep first class on the former Avanti route, allow a clock face Crewe - Holyhead and Manchester - Llandudno to co-exist (along side the Holyhead - Cardiff/Birmingham services) with reliability.

TfW are getting the blame for picking up constant Avanti slack, and Avanti's 50% operation to/from Crewe to the west is removing services needed by travellers to connect into other services from Chester and North Wales - not everyone is trying to go to London.

 

[Bikeman78]

My solution would be for Avanti to stop serving Chester and the coast. Hand the new 80x class to TFW and allow them to operate a reliable Crewe to Holyhead service with them to connect into the WCML properly at Crewe. This would add capacity to the coast, keep first class on the former Avanti route, allow a clock face Crewe - Holyhead and Manchester - Llandudno to co-exist (along side the Holyhead - Cardiff/Birmingham services) with reliability.

TfW are getting the blame for picking up constant Avanti slack, and Avanti's 50% operation to/from Crewe to the west is removing services needed by travellers to connect into other services from Chester and North Wales - not everyone is trying to go to London.

TfW doesn't have any crew to run extra trains. An extra unit would be handy though. Then the Crewe to Chester shuttle could be made up to four cars.

 

[The Prisoner]

To be fair, Avanti and TfW often help each other out at Crewe or Chester.

Maybe I have been unlucky. I've never once seen them do this. Have missed many a shuttle at Crewe by minutes that was a booked connection. Possibly the continuous cancelled Chester and N Wales directs leading to pressure on the xx33 ex Euston as a replacement have made them reassess their approach.

 

[Sheridan]

I'm all for the convenience of a regular Chester/N Wales direct service to Euston. It was heavily patronised pre covid (the 0935 for example from Chester to Euston was often standing room only on departure).

But this is a classic case of "build it and they will come" in reverse: Avanti and Covid have dismantled the direct services to the point where the customers seem to have left in droves due to lack of capacity and poor connectivity at Crewe over the last few years draining confidence from the service.

There are various well documented threads on here as to the xx35 former direct services from Chester being cut short and connecting into fresh air at Crewe from Summer 2020 until recently making the service unusable, and the lack of all but a handful of direct services for two years has removed any semblance of affordable advance fares in any class.

Now nine of the direct services have been restored things should be better, but of all the days I have been watching 4/9 actually running the complete Chester to Euston run is the best I have seen, whilst typically only one or two out of four are making it from Holyhead.

Customer confidence in the route is shot.

My solution would be for Avanti to stop serving Chester and the coast. Hand the new 80x class to TFW and allow them to operate a reliable Crewe to Holyhead service with them to connect into the WCML properly at Crewe.

Avanti have not long ago opened a drivers’ depot in Holyhead, with guards already being based there, and I’m not sure TfW would be able to take on all those traincrew. A few posters have suggested simply splitting at Crewe with no ambition to run through services. In the medium term I think this would be best, as it would insulate the coast services from wider disruption.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The former 2300 generally did not call at Milton Keynes Central. It was Watford Junction, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly. If it had called at Milton Keynes Central and Nuneaton (the latter of course was planned then dropped) it would have been just as viable as the 2333 to Leeds is.

I could have sworn it did. Was there a 2300 Brum as well? I know there was a 2330 but I'm certain I used to occasionally use a 2300 when I lived nearer MKC. Maybe the stop was withdrawn more recently?

It always used to be the case that after a certain time everything called at MKC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

Avanti have not long ago opened a drivers’ depot in Holyhead, with guards already being based there, and I’m not sure TfW would be able to take on all those traincrew. A few posters have suggested simply splitting at Crewe with no ambition to run through services. In the medium term I think this would be best, as it would insulate the coast services from wider disruption.

It'll be interesting to see if people still value a direct service when a change at Crewe onto HS2 will save at least half an hour. I suspect they may not.

 

[D1537]

I could have sworn it did. Was there a 2300 Brum as well? I know there was a 2330 but I'm certain I used to occasionally use a 2300 when I lived nearer MKC. Maybe the stop was withdrawn more recently?

It always used to be the case that after a certain time everything called at MKC.

I've just noticed that there is a 2300 Wolves this week - 9G49. Is this a temporary thing or permanent?

The last Wolves, the 2330 9G50, is (of course) cancelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just noticed that there is a 2300 Wolves this week - 9G49. Is this a temporary thing or permanent?

Don't know but I used it last Thursday, an hour late or I'd not have caught it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

Was very quiet, Coach A was all mine, I think there were maybe 2 people in Coach B, but that was probably due to the severe delay.

 

[davidknibb]

The are so many Avanti cancellations that it would reasonable to guess that a list of running trains is easier to compile than cancellations.
And on RTT the reasons given are nearly all 'Train Operators Request'. What does this really mean ?
That someone at Avanti phones up Mark Harper and the conversation goes something like this:-
Av : Morning Mark - can you do us a favour please ?
MH ; Morning Av - what's that then ?
Av; We're asking your permission to cancel nearly all our early morning trains today out of Euston , and many from around the network as well
MH: Any reason - I'll have to give it some thought.
Av: None really - except we've still got too many trains scheduled - and lots of people want to use them - which means they'll need cleaning
Mh: Oh all right then - permission granted. Just this once mind

What does 'Train Operators Request' mean ?

 

[zwk500]

The are so many Avanti cancellations that it would reasonable to guess that a list of running trains is easier to compile than cancellations.
And on RTT the reasons given are nearly all 'Train Operators Request'. What does this really mean ?
That someone at Avanti phones up Mark Harper and the conversation goes something like this:-
Av : Morning Mark - can you do us a favour please ?
MH ; Morning Av - what's that then ?
Av; We're asking your permission to cancel nearly all our early morning trains today out of Euston , and many from around the network as well
MH: Any reason - I'll have to give it some thought.
Av: None really - except we've still got too many trains scheduled - and lots of people want to use them - which means they'll need cleaning
Mh: Oh all right then - permission granted. Just this once mind

What does 'Train Operators Request' mean ?

Nothing to do with Mark Harper, it'll be Avanti ringing NR Control and saying they can't run the train. So one of the control room staff has to go in the system and mark it as cancelled. The DfT have far too much involvement with operational matters, but they don't get into the actual specifics of the ops floor.

 

[LYuen]

Avanti has Trenitalia as a minority shareholder, the rest is all First Group.
Steve Montgomery is FG MD for all their rail operations, and is leading the Avanti operation at the moment (having replaced the old ex-Virgin MD).
He is also Chair of RDG and is taking a leading role for the TOCs in the current dispute.

Trenitalia is silent anyway, until there is consultation work on HS2 operation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Trenitalia is silent anyway, until there is consultation work on HS2 operation.

Except as a shareholder in Avanti (WCP), they will take a share of the profit/loss on the contract.
Their interest in the UK depends on the Avanti contract.
Their main reason for taking c2c from National Express was to position for the Avanti contract.
Paradoxically, c2c is not normally in the firing line for poor operation.

 

[footprints]

0843, 0943, 1043, 1143 and 1243 Euston to Liverpool Lime Street services all cancelled today according to JourneyCheck, although the 1243 appears to have been reinstated on National Rail Enquiries.

 

[Bikeman78]

Maybe I have been unlucky. I've never once seen them do this. Have missed many a shuttle at Crewe by minutes that was a booked connection. Possibly the continuous cancelled Chester and N Wales directs leading to pressure on the xx33 ex Euston as a replacement have made them reassess their approach.

It depends how proactive the guard or Avanti control are. If no one asks for a hold then the shuttle will go on time. If you're on a late train, ask the guard to call control to start the ball rolling. In my experience, most guards are happy to try and help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except as a shareholder in Avanti (WCP), they will take a share of the profit/loss on the contract.
Their interest in the UK depends on the Avanti contract.
Their main reason for taking c2c from National Express was to position for the Avanti contract.
Paradoxically, c2c is not normally in the firing line for poor operation.

C2C is such a small operation that to get it badly wrong would take considerable effort. It's even simpler than Merseyrail.

 

[Scotrail314209]

The last time I travelled with Avanti, they started my service from Preston. (06:52 ex Edinburgh). So it was a bit of an annoyance having to leave earlier in order to catch a TPE service to Preston.

No First Class service until Birmingham New Street either.

I can’t believe how expensive things have gotten in general on the WCML, prices seem to be so much more higher for a subpar service.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

1852 Edinburgh to Euston terminating at Preston how will the passengers get from Preston to Wigan Warrington Crewe Birmingham & London?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

1852 Edinburgh to Euston terminating at Preston how will the passengers get from Preston to Wigan Warrington Crewe Birmingham & London?

Suppose Edinburgh passengers for London could travel via the ECML into Kings Cross. And is the 1840 from Glasgow Central to London Euston still running, which will allow most (but maybe not all) passengers from key stations along the WCML to still travel this evening.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Cheers

 

[The Prisoner]

1852 Edinburgh to Euston terminating at Preston how will the passengers get from Preston to Wigan Warrington Crewe Birmingham & London?

I often wonder about things like this. I'm worried I'm becoming obsessed with how Avanti customers abandoned on the last train of the day get home.

My experience yesterday was that Avanti made no effort to contact me to let me know my train was cancelled (they know I'm booked on with an advance, and have my mobile and email - surely an automated notification?), and my service was showing as running on both NRE and RTT - I actually went to Euston for the right time just in case (it was showing as canned on AWC's site).

So that 1852 Edinburgh is showing as running all the way through to London still on NRE today - how would someone getting on at say Carlisle know? They would just turn up 2009 and be stuck.

There is a service to London 20 minutes earlier from Glasgow - surely they should keep that at Carlisle or Preston for those 20 minutes to connect into that Edinburgh service for those wanting to travel further south, add in a stop at Crewe on the Glasgow - London service and that would connect with the 2216 LM Crewe to Birmingham service.

Doubtless there are many reasons why such simple logic can't be applied....shoot!

 

[peter166]

The Avanti service from & to Liverpool has been decimated so far today.... nothing new !

To London 0604, 0843, 1043, 1343 & 1443 all cancelled

From London 0636, 0843, 0943, 1143, 1243 all cancelled. 1907 & 2200 both terminating at Crewe.

 

[The Prisoner]

The Avanti service from & to Liverpool has been decimated so far today.... nothing new !

To London 0604, 0843, 1043, 1343 & 1443 all cancelled

From London 0636, 0843, 0943, 1143, 1243 all cancelled. 1907 terminating at Crewe.

No better from Chester & N Wales coast:

From Chester 0620 cancelled at Crewe, 0732 ran, 0920, 1032, 1232 all cancelled, 1432 running 38 late, 1532 running at mo, 1632 cancelled, 1732 running at mo.

The usual 4/9 running as it stands from Chester, and nothing direct between 0732 and 1432.

 

[Foxcover]

Re the future for Holyhead/Chester-Euston, I’d like to see TfW take the service with the 80xs.

Crew it out of Holyhead and Chester, a decent on-board service offering like the Holyhead-Cardiff, gets the service in the hands of someone who cares about it rather than the first service to be dropped, proper integration with other services on TfW‘s ‘other’ mainline, opportunity to really build it strategically as a strong post HS2 offering.

No different to the situation faced by others like Hull, Blackpool (before the pandemic stopped the new services).

A lot of legals, politics and logistics, but that’s what I’d like to see on the right-hand side of the vision page.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Re the future for Holyhead/Chester-Euston, I’d like to see TfW take the service with the 80xs.

Crew it out of Holyhead and Chester, a decent on-board service offering like the Holyhead-Cardiff, gets the service in the hands of someone who cares about it rather than the first service to be dropped, proper integration with other services on TfW‘s ‘other’ mainline, opportunity to really build it strategically as a strong post HS2 offering.

No different to the situation faced by others like Hull, Blackpool (before the pandemic stopped the new services).

A lot of legals, politics and logistics, but that’s what I’d like to see on the right-hand side of the vision page.

How many people using (or wanting to use) the through trains from Euston - Holyhead will be going further than Crewe, and/or carrying heavy luggage for the ferries? If there is still demand for through trains then it would make sense to leave at least a couple in the timetable.

 

[L401CJF]

Re the future for Holyhead/Chester-Euston, I’d like to see TfW take the service with the 80xs.

Crew it out of Holyhead and Chester, a decent on-board service offering like the Holyhead-Cardiff, gets the service in the hands of someone who cares about it rather than the first service to be dropped, proper integration with other services on TfW‘s ‘other’ mainline, opportunity to really build it strategically as a strong post HS2 offering.

No different to the situation faced by others like Hull, Blackpool (before the pandemic stopped the new services).

A lot of legals, politics and logistics, but that’s what I’d like to see on the right-hand side of the vision page.

That's something I would like to see in all fairness and would make sense.

There is demand for a decent direct service to Euston, huge amounts of tickets I check along the coast are heading to Euston (and connections from there/other WCML destinations), and 95% of those using the Crewe shuttle are also heading south.

Might aswell take it in house, most of the tickets are Avanti only/advances and ticket acceptance seems to be in place between Crewe and Holyhead on TFW more often than not given Avantis shambolic offering!

If the service was reliable, you'd see a much bigger increase in usage from my experiences.

Like I said previously, given Avantis cancellations between Crewe and Holyhead the TFW CRE-CTR shuttle is very often full and standing rammed leaving considerable amounts behind.

It is very frustrating taking the abuse off the passengers when theyre wedged in like sardines, and having to explain sorry but you'll have to wait an hour and hope you can fit when we get back- understandably so.

It's also frustrating picking up Avanti passengers from the coast and explaining they'll have to change at Chester, then catch the Crewe shuttle. They'll ask what time the connection is at Crewe. You then look it up and see most of them are cancelled, the next one is a Euston via New St, and probably rammed.

Really feel for the customer at the moment and it's saddening to see the state of our railways at the moment.

 

[Peter0124]

Uhh there was an 08:15 from Manchester to London, but the next one wasn't until 09:35, and a 9 car!!