Another fantastic day with Avanti

[D1537]

Cancelled the last train from London to Manchester tonight. And that's on top of the last train being brought forward in the new timetable from 11pm to 10pm.

They can't hold the 9.30pm train for just half an hour, really?

It was cancelled last night, too. I wonder if it'll be cancelled again tomorrow... (The 23.30 to Birmingham/Wolverhampton has already been cancelled. That's a start, I suppose)

They don't mind cancelling the 2203, because there's a 2200 to Liverpool with a connection at Crewe. Holding something for 3 minutes isn't a problem.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The problem is that the Long Term (Timetable) Plan is like a supertanker. It’s very hard to turn it round once a course has been set, especially when you have to take other users into account.

Effectively the go-no go decision has to be taken months in advance unless you just rip trains out of the timetable and leave all others as is.

So readiness reviews are just pointless box ticking exercises because if it is determined the timetable isn't workable the lead time to produce one that is is too long?

 

[Hans]

Although coming up to the end of the year, I am planning business and personal trips for 2023, for the first time I have decided the WCML is no longer a viable means of travel. Always been a big supporter of using the trains, living in the rural north, it was good to travel south or further north and be able to work on the trains there and back. Virgin were always good and the first class deals were always there so utilised them frequently.

I have given Avanti enough chances, irrespective of the current political climate, they never really provided the service they should do. When I find myself having to factor in "will Avanti cancel the service, will it terminate at Crewe or Preston, will I actually get to where I planned" for every single journey, there comes a time when enough is enough. I think I am at that point now.

I always allowed contingency on any journey for delays, believe that is a sensible plan but even that isn't enough currently!

Even if the services are running, the hit and miss seat reservations, crowding, overly cold or hot trains, no refreshments just means for over a 3 hour journey I find myself constantly asking "why didn't I drive!.

 

[zwk500]

So readiness reviews are just pointless box ticking exercises because if it is determined the timetable isn't workable the lead time to produce one that is is too long?

You can't fundamentally rewrite the timetable but a readiness review does allow mitigation strategies to be put in place and comms to be given to the public (in theory).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You can't fundamentally rewrite the timetable but a readiness review does allow mitigation strategies to be put in place and comms to be given to the public (in theory).

Actually the new WCML timetable was the most substantial rewrite since 2008, and included changes not directly connected with Avanti - eg the reworking of trains through the Castlefield corridor.
Those changes could not really have been postponed (and resulted partly as a result of actions agreed in response to the 2018 timetable meltdown).
Things aren't going to be anything like "normal" while multiple TOC/NR strikes are being held.

 

[zwk500]

Actually the new WCML timetable was the most substantial rewrite since 2008, and included changes not directly connected with Avanti - eg the reworking of trains through the Castlefield corridor.
Those changes could not really have been postponed (and resulted partly as a result of actions agreed in response to the 2018 timetable meltdown).
Things aren't going to be anything like "normal" while multiple TOC/NR strikes are being held.

Sorry, I think we've got ends crossed. What I was saying is that if you discover at a readiness review certain prerequisites are not in place for a proposed timetable you can't suddenly rewrite the already rewritten timetable. There's a reason rewrites take years to do (I watched this one being done by me then-colleagues).

 

[high camera]

Hans, I am with you on that. I used to use Virgin/Avanti at least once a week. Lancs to London.
Not anymore, I have started driving to Crewe for LM services or even driving over to Newark for LNER !
I wont be returning to Avanti until I see a significant improvement

 

[BurtonM]

And that's on top of the last train being brought forward in the new timetable from 11pm to 10pm

the last EUS-MAN is 10pm on a weekday? That sounds unreasonably early.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the last EUS-MAN is 10pm on a weekday? That sounds unreasonably early.

Is it that unreasonable? It's a fairly long journey. The former 2300 called at MKC and I used it a few times and it was very, very quiet. I think it is still worth having a 2300 (and later services to e.g. Scotland) but I guess things are tight at the moment. Few people are happy getting home at around 2am, though, as that train did (due to the two track timetable it took an hour to MKC).

I'd personally rather the service was reliable but more limited, which was kind of the point of slimming it down a bit. 2300 is a bit early for a show or pub closing time, so I think it served relatively little purpose.

 

[jfollows]

Is it that unreasonable? It's a fairly long journey. The former 2300 called at MKC and I used it a few times and it was very, very quiet. I think it is still worth having a 2300 (and later services to e.g. Scotland) but I guess things are tight at the moment. Few people are happy getting home at around 2am, though, as that train did (due to the two track timetable it took an hour to MKC).

I'd personally rather the service was reliable but more limited, which was kind of the point of slimming it down a bit.

I think so too - I've lived in the Manchester area in my youth, then 1996 to date, and during the latter period often used the WCML to/from London. In all that time I can recall using the 22:00 departure once only when it was the last train, and never wanted to use the 23:00 since it was introduced. Granted, I now live in Wilmslow so the 23:00 isn't really very convenient, but at a push I could get a taxi home from Macclesfield or Stockport if it was that important.
I guess it's nice to have a 23:00 departure but as you say I don't think there's a big market for it. I guess normally I'd try to arrange my appointments so that I don't have to be back at home in the early hours but would nowadays more likely stay overnight in London.

 

[Bertie the bus]

You can't fundamentally rewrite the timetable but a readiness review does allow mitigation strategies to be put in place and comms to be given to the public (in theory).

There are no mitigation strategies for a TOC like Avanti. If Northern finds itself unable to operate the timetable it can just abandon some lesser used line and put on RRBs, which it has done in the past. It gets a bit of bad press but the impact is fairly localised. You can't replace London - Glasgow services with RRBs. For mitigation strategies read instruct the press office to prepare a list of excuses.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

SNCF is offering a 200% refund for cancelled trains on December 24 and 25, if strikes take place.
That's a full refund plus a 1-year voucher for a second trip.
Of course we don't have any issue with cancelled trains on Dec 25, because there aren't any, and there won't be many on Dec 24 either...
Apparently it's conductors considering strike action as they have rejected their pay rise.

French rail firm to reimburse double ticket price for Christmas cancellations

SNCF apologises to up to 200,000 passengers likely to be affected by wildcat strikes by conductors

www.theguardian.com

SNCF said train managers’ pay had risen 12% in two years and they had recently been offered a further €1,200 (£1,050) a year in salary and benefits. Unions deem the offer serious enough not to formally call a strike, but several hundred conductors have rejected it, saying they want greater recognition for the specific demands of their job.
The company said passengers who were unable to travel because of the strike would be reimbursed the full cost of their tickets in cash or by transfer and would also receive a voucher for the same amount, valid for one year for any future journey.

Of course, SNCF hasn't had the repeated strikes this year that we have, or are unable to run their normal timetable like Avanti/TPE.
On the other hand, France is well known for sudden strikes (manifestations) across the whole public sector, even in normal times.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

the last EUS-MAN is 10pm on a weekday? That sounds unreasonably early.

Even earlier in the opposite direction during the week. Something like 9.15 p.m.

 

[Merseysider]

SNCF is offering a 200% refund for cancelled trains on December 24 and 25, if strikes take place.

The company said passengers who were unable to travel because of the strike would be reimbursed the full cost of their tickets in cash or by transfer and would also receive a voucher for the same amount, valid for one year for any future journey.

And that is how you minimise loss of custom, and avoid people permanently turning to a car.

Of course, with Avanti, there’s a significant chance the “free” journey would be cancelled anyway, so it’s kind of a non-starter over here

 

[800001]

Am I right in saying First Group operate, Avanti, TPE and SWR? 3 TOCs having big issues?

 

[Merseysider]

Even earlier in the opposite direction during the week. Something like 9.15 p.m.

It would be nice to see an intercity railway (ie Avanti) capable of moving people 24/7, even if that means a train at 23:00 and then two hour gaps until normal service.

Every time I’m in Germany I marvel at how well connected cities are at night, and the ease of getting places ‘after hours’.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Am I right in saying First Group operate, Avanti, TPE and SWR? 3 TOCs having big issues?

Avanti has Trenitalia as a minority shareholder, the rest is all First Group.
Steve Montgomery is FG MD for all their rail operations, and is leading the Avanti operation at the moment (having replaced the old ex-Virgin MD).
He is also Chair of RDG and is taking a leading role for the TOCs in the current dispute.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Am I right in saying First Group operate, Avanti, TPE and SWR?

First Rail / First Group also own GWR, for what it's worth.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Avanti has Trenitalia as a minority shareholder, the rest is all First Group.
Steve Montgomery is FG MD for all their rail operations, and is leading the Avanti operation at the moment (having replaced the old ex-Virgin MD).
He is also Chair of RDG and is taking a leading role for the TOCs in the current dispute.

SWR is First/MTR.

 

[Confused52]

sensible comments might do.

it’s rather far fetched to think a comment like that will make an MP or the media think ‘Oh yes, there must be an issue, we hadn’t cottoned on’.

you might have missed Avanti being in the media for months, or in front if the transport select committee last week.

I watched the Select Committee meeting and Avanti seemed very confident albeit with reservations over agreement of rosters at two depots. However, looking at what is going on it seems that there is a form of guerrilla warfare going on at Euston. I was going to try and get to London in the second week in Jan after the strikes but it looks to be the case that the WCML long distance is permanently broken.

 

[Starmill]

Is it that unreasonable? It's a fairly long journey. The former 2300 called at MKC and I used it a few times and it was very, very quiet. I think it is still worth having a 2300 (and later services to e.g. Scotland) but I guess things are tight at the moment. Few people are happy getting home at around 2am, though, as that train did (due to the two track timetable it took an hour to MKC).

I'd personally rather the service was reliable but more limited, which was kind of the point of slimming it down a bit. 2300 is a bit early for a show or pub closing time, so I think it served relatively little purpose.

There's a 2333 to Leeds and has been for over a decade. It's not particularly difficult.

The former 2300 generally did not call at Milton Keynes Central. It was Watford Junction, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly. If it had called at Milton Keynes Central and Nuneaton (the latter of course was planned then dropped) it would have been just as viable as the 2333 to Leeds is.

 

[philthetube]

Actually the new WCML timetable was the most substantial rewrite since 2008, and included changes not directly connected with Avanti - eg the reworking of trains through the Castlefield corridor.
Those changes could not really have been postponed (and resulted partly as a result of actions agreed in response to the 2018 timetable meltdown).
Things aren't going to be anything like "normal" while multiple TOC/NR strikes are being held.

Would it not be possible to write a schedule in such a way as to allow Avanti to cancel some trains, once they know staff availability, They could then have published a timetable later, allowing the service running to use some to the paths available. and provide a regular service without affecting other operators who could operate the new timetable without issues.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it not be possible to write a schedule in such a way as to allow Avanti to cancel some trains, once they know staff availability

That is exactly what they are doing!

 

[Clarence Yard]

So readiness reviews are just pointless box ticking exercises because if it is determined the timetable isn't workable the lead time to produce one that is is too long?

Pretty much, unless it’s done much earlier. Once the politicians/DfT decide that a timetable is definitely going in at the next timetable change, then it’s effectively game over.

 

[350401]

On 21.33 EUS to Manc. Zero ticket checks either at barrier or on board. The Toilets are dirty, heavily graffitied, and there is litter everywhere. I’m in standard premium, having paid a £25 premium for advance fare, and at bay of seats behind is a bunch of people loudly boasting they haven’t paid anything. The guard is sat in his box in coach C. It’s a really good advert for the value that train managers add. Next time, I’m paying for the basic ticket and chancing whether I get charged the £25 for standard premium. At the moment, travel with Avanti is something to be endured through gritted teeth, rather than enjoyed. Hardly a good long term business model.

 

[A0]

And that is how you minimise loss of custom, and avoid people permanently turning to a car.

Of course, with Avanti, there’s a significant chance the “free” journey would be cancelled anyway, so it’s kind of a non-starter over here

It's also economically illiterate unless you can recover the costs from the people who have caused the disruption.

 

[47550]

Just looking at the 2203 EUS - MAN and notice that it is set down only at Stoke, Macclesfield and Stockport. Granted there are probably not many passengers wanting to get a train into Manchester at midnight from these stations but there might be a few, so why not allow people to get on at these stations ?

 

[Watershed]

Just looking at the 2203 EUS - MAN and notice that it is set down only at Stoke, Macclesfield and Stockport. Granted there are probably not many passengers wanting to get a train into Manchester at midnight from these stations but there might be a few, so why not allow people to get on at these stations ?

I don't think the set down only restriction is likely to be enforced.

It's more likely just so that they don't have to provide northbound replacement transport from Stoke/Macclesfield/Stockport during the usual cyclical engineering works which divert the train via Madeley and/or Wilmslow - or, more cynically, when the train is cancelled!

On late night services that are curtailed (e.g. at Crewe) I've often seen Train Managers passing through asking people where they're going so they know how many buses or taxis are needed. It would be much more complicated if they also had to cater for an unknown number of passengers from Stoke, Macclesfield and Stockport.

I'd be much more concerned about how the last southbound departure from Manchester is still incredibly early.

 

[Peter0124]

Wasn't there supposed to be a brand new 2215 from Manchester to London? Was planned this TT change but later scrapped.

 

[Kite159]

I don't think the set down only restriction is likely to be enforced.

It's more likely just so that they don't have to provide northbound replacement transport from Stoke/Macclesfield/Stockport during the usual cyclical engineering works which divert the train via Madeley and/or Wilmslow - or, more cynically, when the train is cancelled!

On late night services that are curtailed (e.g. at Crewe) I've often seen Train Managers passing through asking people where they're going so they know how many buses or taxis are needed. It would be much more complicated if they also had to cater for an unknown number of passengers from Stoke, Macclesfield and Stockport.

I'd be much more concerned about how the last southbound departure from Manchester is still incredibly early.

I know during last December when XC had late notice changes to their timetable and cut back the last Manchester train at Birmingham (20;15 from Reading, starting from Bournemouth) the recommended connection for passengers wanting Stockport/Manchester was to change at Stoke or Crewe onto that last Avanti service even though it was set down only. Although that was when it went Stoke - Crewe - Stockport, no call at Macclesfield.

I suspect the calls at Tamworth & Lichfield to set down only was for engineering works closing the slow lines, as any passengers for those stations could be put into a bus from Nuneaton.