Original 1972 Merseyrail proposals

[Bletchleyite]

The Suez oil crisis occurring when it did, and knock on economic collapse of the UK, resulting in Merseyrail being left only half finished, doesn't mean there's no business case to finish it.

I have an old newspaper article dated March 7, 1972, and that says nothing about running to Preston, indeed it seems to indicate Ormskirk as still end of the line. Burscough back then was little more than a farming village, it's grown a lot in the last 20 years or so.

Proposals that were/are being built:

• Link and Loop
• Headbolt Lane station
• Extension to Chester and Ellesmere Port
• Rocket station (actually called Wavertree Technology Park and about 300m east of original proposed location)
• Bowring station (actually called Broad Green)
• Eastham Rake station
• Halewood East station (actually called Halewood)
• Overpool station
• Northern Line to Hunts X

Not built:

• Bowring station (between Huyton and Prescot)
• Warren Park station (between Wallasey Grove Road and New Brighton)
• Fender Lane, Woodchurch and Marshlands Road stations on the Borderlands Line
• Hunts X-Rocket outer loop including stations
• Rocket to Bootle New Strand outer loop including stations
• Bootle New Strand to Aintree including station at Giro/Ford (Ormskirk via Orrell Park and via something else, possibly Ford, was on the original Solari displays)
• Skelmersdale Ditton Brook station (must have involved more expansion of Skem, as this was fairly uselessly located at the south west corner of Pimbo industrial estate, worse located than Upholland - to me improving Upholland with a large P&R site and bus interchange on the other corner of Pimbo would be cheaper and better)
• Breeze Hill station (between Kirkdale and Walton)
• Wapping Tunnel to bring Lime St routes onto Merseyrail
• Extension from Headbolt Lane to Wigan

Obviously some other things were built that weren't on the original plans, e.g. Liverpool South Parkway, Bromborough Rake station, Maghull North station, Conway Park station, and some are proposed e.g. the reopening of St James as Liverpool Baltic (which I still think sounds odd as it ends in an adjective). Interestingly the first project was to have been the Giro line!

I have seen other articles proposing things like Burscough Mill Dam Lane (in the middle of a field then, possibly useful now) though.

Notably bus integration is a key part of the plans...

 

[D821]

It's a shame the Outer Loop never got built, I think that would have had a massive impact on transport in the city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a shame the Outer Loop never got built, I think that would have had a massive impact on transport in the city.

The issue with it is that journeys to central Liverpool would have been very circuitous and slow, and because Liverpool is just a quarter of a city in transport terms (which really makes it easier to serve!) you don't really gain much for intermediate journeys. That I think is where Merseytram came in, giving them a more direct journey.

It may well be that it now provides more value as a cycle path than it ever would have as a railway.

 

[MisterSheeps]

it ever would have as a railway

The outer loop was built for access to the northern docks, so am sure it fulfilled that purpose admirably. The S & CLER (Aintree - Southport) was another matter, arguably a mistake. Keeping the Gateacre service, electrified to Hunts Cross, would have maybe been a good idea.

 

[30907]

Keeping the Gateacre service, electrified to Hunts Cross, would have maybe been a good idea.

When I stayed in Gateacre for an event 50-odd years ago, I was the only one daft enough to go into the city by train - the buses were far more frequent and direct, backing up Bletchleyite's comment. And from the train loading the locals thought the same
Nowadays it might be different....

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I stayed in Gateacre for an event 50-odd years ago, I was the only one daft enough to go into the city by train - the buses were far more frequent and direct, backing up Bletchleyite's comment. And from the train loading the locals thought the same
Nowadays it might be different....

A rattly old heritage DMU once an hour and a brand new Class 777 every 15 minutes are two quite different things in their attractiveness!

As is a tram. I think cancelling Merseytram was a bad idea. It would have taken a lot of cars off the road.

 

[D821]

Definitely, it wouldn't have been cheap and would no doubt have been delivered late and over-budget, but it would have made a big difference.
The Liverpool Echo was printing some nonsense the other day about trams being used to connect to Anfield for match traffic, but I didn't even bother to click on it. They've not ran the trams for the airport story for a while, that must be due for dusting off again, soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Liverpool Echo was printing some nonsense the other day about trams being used to connect to Anfield for match traffic, but I didn't even bother to click on it. They've not ran the trams for the airport story for a while, that must be due for dusting off again, soon.

The airport is of course totally absent from the original plans too.

In my view heavy rail is the way to do that, because it gets very close and there are several viable options to get it there, either from the WCML slows or from the Northern Line.

 

[MisterSheeps]

As is a tram

Interesting though ... with a reserved formation, a tram would be ok, like Manchester Metrolink Bury line, but, for example, the Ashton & Airport lines are excruciatingly slow, so a train on the outer loop might not be any slower, and would be much more comfortable.

 

[Bevan Price]

A Merseytram going to Kirkby, and partly competing with the Merseyrail Electrics line was not a good idea. If they were going to build a tramway, much better routes could have been chosen for the first option, e.g. Liverpool - West Derby - Stockbridge, or Liverpool - Wavertree - Belle Vale.

Gateacre station. on the Liverpool loop, although not far from the village centre, was less than ideally located for walking distance from many houses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Merseytram going to Kirkby, and partly competing with the Merseyrail Electrics line was not a good idea.

It wasn't really doing that any more than Metrolink to Manchester Airport competes with heavy rail or the number 4 bus in Milton Keynes competes with rail for people going from near Bletchley station to near Wolverton station. The inclusion of Kirkby at the outer end was probably twofold - interchange other than in the city centre, plus probably also Objective 1 funding similar to the reason why the Metrolink Salford Quays line (as is its real purpose) goes to Eccles.

It made a lot of sense to run it from interchange to interchange via lots of places which weren't anywhere near the Merseyrail line.

 

[Springs Branch]

When I stayed in Gateacre for an event 50-odd years ago, I was the only one daft enough to go into the city by train - the buses were far more frequent and direct, backing up Bletchleyite's comment. And from the train loading the locals thought the same
Nowadays it might be different....

Gateacre station. on the Liverpool loop, although not far from the village centre, was less than ideally located for walking distance from many houses.

I once read that, after the passenger services to Aintree Central on the Outer Loop had been withdrawn (in 1960), the reason the Gateacre train hung on for so long (latterly in a very dilapidated condition with a single line going into a demolition site at Central High Level) was some sort of difficulty in serving that suburb properly by road.

I'm not too familiar with roads in the district but looking at a street map (a dog-eared 1970s one at that) it doesn't seem like Gateacre was particularly inaccessible from the rest of Liverpool. Could it have been more to do with Liverpool Corporation being either short of vehicles, or difficulties recruiting crews to provide an extra bus service in that area at the time?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One other change on the periphery of Merseyrail was the relocation of Upton-by-Chester station further south, to become Bache.
A very long time ago as a student, I manned the booking office at Upton-by-Chester for a few weeks...

The NPR proposals might give some scope to develop existing lines, if through services go via Ditton and Warrington BQLL.

 

[Jagdpanther]

The short branch to Gateacre was included in the Merseyrail plans and leaflets were produced to inform residents of a proposed electrification. I have seen an old 'opening soon' Merseyrail map that did include the Gateacre branch. I guess the residents are still waiting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The short branch to Gateacre was included in the Merseyrail plans and leaflets were produced to inform residents of a proposed electrification. I have seen an old 'opening soon' Merseyrail map that did include the Gateacre branch. I guess the residents are still waiting.

View attachment 125258

And some muppet plonked a signalling centre at the end of Hunts Cross platform, as if to sabotage it... if it had to go there it could have gone on stilts.

 

[frodshamfella]

The outer loop was built for access to the northern docks, so am sure it fulfilled that purpose admirably. The S & CLER (Aintree - Southport) was another matter, arguably a mistake. Keeping the Gateacre service, electrified to Hunts Cross, would have maybe been a good idea.

Yes agree with Gateacre, bus alternative to the city is very slow, would have made a lot of difference .

 

[MadMac]

I once read that, after the passenger services to Aintree Central on the Outer Loop had been withdrawn (in 1960), the reason the Gateacre train hung on for so long (latterly in a very dilapidated condition with a single line going into a demolition site at Central High Level) was some sort of difficulty in serving that suburb properly by road.

I recall reading that despite the Gateacre service still running from Central, there was a notice at one of the entrances “This station is now closed, all trains leave from Lime Street”.

 

[Springs Branch]

I recall reading that despite the Gateacre service still running from Central, there was a notice at one of the entrances “This station is now closed, all trains leave from Lime Street”.

Nice bit of dis-information from BR there. Presumably there was still a booking office open at the time selling tickets for the Wirral electrics, which were very much 'alive and well' running from the original Central Low Level at the time. Or was there a separate ticket office 'downstairs'?

Along with @Bletchleyite's observation on the signalling centre built across the trackbed, it's interesting to observe BR's cunning plans to nudge away, bit-by-bit, the possibility of continuing to run trains to Gateacre and the Outer Loop - despite the local authorities' published aspirations from the mid-1960s MALTS report onwards.

The Disused Stations entry for Gateacre includes an account of how BR progressively downgraded and singled the Outer Loop line and refused to temporarily divert Gateacre DMUs into Lime Street while the central Liverpool Link was being built and the line to Central via Garston line electrified.

A Transport and Works Order was secured in 1971 for the creation of new underground lines in Liverpool City centre and the electrification of routes, including the former CLC line through Gateacre.

While all of this was going on British Railways was busy running-down the North Liverpool Extension line. On 22 September 1968 the section of line between Aintree Central and Fazakerley South Junction was closed and lifted shortly after. On 30 November 1969 the line from Walton-on-the-Hill (Fazakerley West Junction) to Knotty Ash was singled.

In order to build the new sections of underground line Liverpool Central had to close as the site was needed to allow shafts to be sunk. This caused a problem with regard to the Gateacre service. Local people argued that the service should run to Liverpool Lime Street for a few years while the underground lines were being built, then electrification could be extended to Gateacre, as a first phase. British Rail considered that it was too costly to run the service in this way, and the local authorities would not meet the cost.

The Liverpool Central – Gateacre service was withdrawn after the last train had run on 15 April 1972. The withdrawal of the service was supposed to be for only a few years as new electric train services had been promised to the Gateacre residents. Leaflets showing the new lines were even produced. The station building at Gateacre was demolished as it was considered that a new building would be more appropriate for the future.

When the Gateacre service ceased the only trains using the North Liverpool Extension line were daily freight trains between Edge Hill and Huskisson. On 21 October 1972 the line from Gateacre to Knotty Ash was singled. There was a fire at Gateacre signal box in August 1973, and British Rail officially closed it on 26 September 1973 and singled the line from Gateacre to Hunts Cross West Junction; this was another strange decision as the line was planned to reopen to passenger services within a few years. In July 1975 the last freight trains ran and the line through Gateacre was mothballed.

. . . . In the early months of 1979 British Rail lifted the North Liverpool Extension Line all the way back to Hunts Cross. Hopes of Gateacre reopening faded, and although the electrification was extended to Hunts Cross on 16 May 1983 the plans for the eastern belt line were quietly dropped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Low Level had its own booking office, yes. There are quite a few pics of it knocking around.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I always wonder if the Gateacre closure on 1972 was all legal and above board. After all it was just supposed to be a temporary suspension of the service. Is there any way to check that the correct procedures were observed? Perhaps Merseyrail should have been running a parliamentary replacement bus service for the past 50 years...

I may be misremembering, but wasn’t Preston also a destination on the Solari indicators at Moorfields and Central? Wigan certainly was.

Was Waterloo Interchange, little used nowadays with the station walkway closed off, built as part of the rail-bus integration plans? I think that it would still work today if they put on a shuttle bus service to the surrounding suburbs, with proper through ticketing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I may be misremembering, but wasn’t Preston also a destination on the Solari indicators at Moorfields and Central? Wigan certainly was.

There was all manner of great stuff on those, which as a kid I used to watch scrolling past and wonder. I suspect Preston was, yes, though I don't remember. The one that always got my curiosity was Ormskirk via Orrell Park and exactly what the other option was (I think via Ford has been mentioned before). And for some reason when blank was shown it freaked me out a bit, probably as it was a sign of something being wrong.

I wish I had a list.

Was Waterloo Interchange, little used nowadays with the station walkway closed off, built as part of the rail-bus integration plans? I think that it would still work today if they put on a shuttle bus service to the surrounding suburbs, with proper through ticketing.

Certainly there's a decent bus interchange at Maghull, though it was built later. It is, as you might expect, rather underused. Perhaps if the Liverpool City Region goes the way of regulation then we will see these properly used once again - they were always a bit more "German thinking" than other PTEs, including the very Germany-like zonal system.

 

[Springs Branch]

Low Level had its own booking office, yes. There are quite a few pics of it knocking around.

Ah yes - a Google search throws up a few images.

I remember that manky, tiled subway used to access the old Central L.L. before rebuilding for the Link & Loop, and thinking how it resembled an old-fashioned underground public lavatory. Plus how threatening it would be late on Saturday night with numbers of drunks and Liverpool's ne'er-do-wells about (even though it was probably no worse than a lot of LT tube stations of the era). But I never noticed the bank of ticket office windows set into the subway wall.

Interesting to see in the photos that Low Level still had separate booking windows labelled for stations to (Birkenhead) Park and Rock Ferry, and for "Beyond Park & Rock Ferry". Likely a legacy of the Mersey Railway as far as Birkenhead Park & Rock Ferry remaining as a separate company up until nationalisation in 1948.

. . . I think via Ford has been mentioned before . . .

I remember seeing the mysterious "Ormskirk via Ford" flicking past, and wondering how long it would be before the 'Giro' line would open. I think 'Ormskirk via Ford' was provided on EMU destination blinds too at one stage. Can't remember if it was on a Class 502 or a 507, but the letters and black linen were pristine black and white, never having been exposed to the fading effects of daylight!

Was Waterloo Interchange, little used nowadays with the station walkway closed off, built as part of the rail-bus integration plans? I think that it would still work today if they put on a shuttle bus service to the surrounding suburbs, with proper through ticketing.

T.B. Maund's book Merseyrail Electrics gives a detailed account of developments at the Waterloo interchange - pretty much one A4 page of text, so too much to quote a full extract here.

Maund's book reports that Waterloo certainly was part of several bus-rail integration trials in the early-mid 1970s. Of the seven or so stations involved in the PTE's bus-rail schemes, it seems to have been the one which involved the most radical re-work of local bus routes to 'nudge' passengers towards interchanging with trains to/from Liverpool. So much so that on the first day of implementation of revised local bus routes around Crosby - in order to divert services to run via Waterloo interchange - the Ribble bus crews went on unofficial strike in protest about 'their' Liverpool passengers being poached by Merseyrail (well, it was Merseyside in the 1970s).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah yes - a Google search throws up a few images.

I remember that manky, tiled subway used to access the old Central L.L. before rebuilding for the Link & Loop, and thinking how it resembled an old-fashioned underground public lavatory. Plus how threatening it would be late on Saturday night with numbers of drunks and Liverpool's ne'er-do-wells about (even though it was probably no worse than a lot of LT tube stations of the era). But I never noticed the bank of ticket office windows set into the subway wall.

One thing I wonder is if any of it is still there under the Lyceum or if it's mostly or all been filled in. The access door from that side certainly still is as a fire escape. It seems fairly clear that the station side subway would have gone entirely though (the plans I saw suggested it had access from both sides with the platforms in the middle).

I believe it was the door on the bottom left of this:

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View of the Lyceum building in 2018

Indeed confirmed on the disused-stations site (page of photos):

Disused Stations: Liverpool Central (High Level) Station

Interesting to see in the photos that Low Level still had separate booking windows labelled for stations to (Birkenhead) Park and Rock Ferry, and for "Beyond Park & Rock Ferry". Likely a legacy of the Mersey Railway as far as Birkenhead Park & Rock Ferry remaining as a separate company up until nationalisation in 1948.

I suspect more likely it was because Edmondson tickets were in use, and so the windows were split up so the stocks of each one could be kept separate for faster sales to the most common destinations. That was common in the days before APTIS was introduced.

I remember seeing the mysterious "Ormskirk via Ford" flicking past, and wondering how long it would be before the 'Giro' line would open. I think 'Ormskirk via Ford' was provided on EMU destination blinds too at one stage. Can't remember if it was on a Class 502 or a 507, but the letters and black linen were pristine black and white, never having been exposed to the fading effects of daylight!

I wonder what service level was proposed then? I can't see Ormskirk having justified 8tph, and if you'd split it 2 each way then Walton and Orrell Park would have had an unjustifiably poor service. Perhaps that's one reason why it never happened. Or on the original 3tph that would have been 6tph to Ormskirk (grossly excessive) or a 2-and-1 split which would be even more useless. Or if you just did Aintree via Ford you'd have had a potentially excessive service at stations south of Bootle, though I suppose you could have done something like had those run all stops and the Southports miss a couple out.

Given that Giro/Ford is a bit of a low-density Council housing wasteland now, with much of the old employment gone, perhaps this is one where the decision not to open was correct?

Interestingly it was down to 5 trains a day by 1947, according to Disused Stations.

This I believe is its location:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

All a bit Denton!

Maund's book reports that Waterloo certainly was part of several bus-rail integration trials in the early-mid 1970s. Of the seven or so stations involved in the PTE's bus-rail schemes, it seems to have been the one which involved the most radical re-work of local bus routes to 'nudge' passengers towards interchanging with trains to/from Liverpool. So much so that on the first day of implementation of revised local bus routes around Crosby - in order to divert services to run via Waterloo interchange - the Ribble bus crews went on unofficial strike in protest about 'their' Liverpool passengers being poached by Merseyrail (well, it was Merseyside in the 1970s).

i've always said the culture of bus vs. rail operation in the UK was a bit off, and this just goes to prove it even more!

 

[Grumpy]

- they were always a bit more "German thinking" than other PTEs, including the very Germany-like zonal system.

But not like the Germans in implementation. I believe the zones when introduced were not as originally intended-the printers mis-aligned the zones on the published maps

 

[emoaconr]

One thing I wonder is if any of it is still there under the Lyceum or if it's mostly or all been filled in. The access door from that side certainly still is as a fire escape. It seems fairly clear that the station side subway would have gone entirely though (the plans I saw suggested it had access from both sides with the platforms in the middle).

I believe it was the door on the bottom left of this:

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www.liverpoolmonuments.co.uk

View of the Lyceum building in 2018

Indeed confirmed on the disused-stations site (page of photos):

Disused Stations: Liverpool Central (High Level) Station

What remains of the booking office/subway was most recently Prohibition Bar in the basement of the Lyceum.

Have a look here:

Look inside the Grade II listed Lyceum building on Bold Street

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

The internal layout was documented in a planning permission for the Chinese restaurant which now occupies part of the basement, which showed the repurposed walkway to the platforms. Of course the footway over the end of the platforms itself is long gone, but can be made out by looking upwards on the Northern line platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The internal layout was documented in a planning permission for the Chinese restaurant which now occupies part of the basement, which showed the repurposed walkway to the platforms. Of course the footway over the end of the platforms itself is long gone, but can be made out by looking upwards on the Northern line platforms.

Indeed I had a nose today and saw it on both sides (only recently did I realise that it had two entrances, one on each side, joined by what was essentially an enclosed footbridge). It appears though that at that end the roof of the current station has been lowered a bit, as otherwise you'd need to be pretty small to fit into it!

 

[emoaconr]

Indeed I had a nose today and saw it on both sides (only recently did I realise that it had two entrances, one on each side, joined by what was essentially an enclosed footbridge). It appears though that at that end the roof of the current station has been lowered a bit, as otherwise you'd need to be pretty small to fit into it!

Absolutely, this great photo from Old Liverpool Railways on Twitter shows the 1970s redevelopment. The enclosed walkway has been removed in this photo but you can still see the entrance on the left. On another note, the third incomplete single bore arch is behind the wall on the right of this photo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers for that, great pic I have never seen before. The third tunnel portal has always been a source of great mystery to me - what's there and why it was even built if they weren't going to build that bit of the station?

 

[emoaconr]

Cheers for that, great pic I have never seen before. The third tunnel portal has always been a source of great mystery to me - what's there and why it was even built if they weren't going to build that bit of the station?

There's a set of photos I have seen in one of the closed Facebook groups which shows the void beyond that wall and the third arch. In a nutshell - nothing much, other than a partly excavated void (named the Dead End Vent Heading) propped up by old sleepers and a couple of brick pillars. But it does suggest that the Victorian planners maybe had something in mind for that third arch. Remember those same planners future proofed the alignment of the CLC lines with the MR, so its not unfeasible to suggest it was a way of future proofing the station.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I thought to add my (limited and one-off) experience with the 1970s Merseyrail developments here, even if it is somewhat tangential to the thread, I thought it might be of interest.

I was working on the train loadings and timings section at LMR Derby, and I think it must have been around October 1974 when my section boss got a request to check on the braking characteristics of the Merseyside electric sets of the day. (Sorry, I don't know the modern class designation).

But it turned out we hadn't got any records of such. This was probably the cause of the problem, because it seems that the plans for the signal spacing on the new Merseyrail system had been drawn up using the braking distances of the Euston-Watford stock. Nobody had noticed this until, whoops ... almost too late.

I don't think actual construction and installation of the new system had started, but even if it hadn't, if the braking characteristics of the real units were significantly poorer than the Watford units, then the plans - either of the signalling, or of the line speeds - would have to be redrawn - which would have been a major job in itself.

So, I arranged with the Divisional operators to go up to Southport and physically ride a test train unit to and from Liverpool Exchange for a day and a half, stopping from specific speeds up to, IIRC, 60 mph and timing the train until it came to rest. (From this, I could plot a graph indicating the braking distance curve.)

So it was that I found a B&B in Southport one Sunday evening, and on the Monday and Tuesday trundled back and forth between booked workings and with a footplate inspector, starting and stopping every mile or two. (This would have surely puzzled RTT watchers no end, had such a system been operating at the time.)

I expect I'm the sole person alive today who remembers this operation, mainly because it transpired that the Liverpool units were, as far as daily usage was concerned, exactly the same as the Watford jobs when if came to braking characteristics. Which meant, of course, that this particular scare disappeared overnight and was forgotten by everyone within a year or two. But, as it was one of my first 'real' jobs, and had serious implications had I got it wrong, not by me!

Looking back, I suspect that, in the original planning, someone had asked for the braking characteristics of the Merseyrail stock and - lacking this data - someone else has said: Use the Watford stock data for the first draft - and if it goes ahead, we'll find the real curves for the Mersey units. But along the way, staff changed and the 'error' was not noticed - until it was!

Alas, I haven't been to Liverpool (at least not by train) since those two days in 74, so I have no idea what it all looks like or works today.