Northern rail fine help/advice

[Loneranger12]

Hi, I have received a fine from northern rail which has gone from £5.80 to £95.80 in the space of a week

For context this was my 2nd time up north.

The last week of November I had bought a ticket for the 8:55am train from Keighley to Leeds which was delayed by 25 and eventually 35 minutes so I had no choice but to get on the next train which was 9:15am train to Leeds, the reason I had no choice was because I had a train to King’s Cross to get at 10:25am. The ticket insepector on the keighley train took my details cos I didn’t have a valid ticket even though he knew the earlier train was delayed, I offered to pay then and there the £2.40 for another ticket and he said no it’s procedure…you will get a letter but don’t worry just reply and tell them the train was delayed. I feel like he could’ve just made both our lives easier by letting me get the ticket at the time.

So the letter comes and I owe £5.80 for getting on the wrong train, I reply stating what the situation was and northern rail replied saying regardless of the situation you got on a wrong train, pay the fine or we will progress to prosecution proceedings. As you can imagine I go to pay the small amount online and as I get to it they are wanting to charge me £95.80?

Can someone give me advice in this? Can I appeal?

Thanks

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

We need to know more details to offer the best advice.

What ticket did you hold for the 08:55 from Keighley to Leeds. Can you post a copy of it here with any identifying details redacted.
Can you post a copy of the letter you have received from Northern, again with any personal details redacted.

 

[Peterthegreat]

First of all I would check your facts. There is neither an 08.55 nor 09.15 service from Keighley to Leeds (and nothing near these times). There is also no 10.25 from Leeds to Kings Cross.

 

[danm14]

First of all I would check your facts. There is neither an 08.55 nor 09.15 service from Keighley to Leeds (and nothing near these times). There is also no 10.25 from Leeds to Kings Cross.

There was an 08:55 service from Keighley to Leeds on the previous timetable which was in force in November.

 

[Peterthegreat]

There was an 08:55 service from Keighley to Leeds on the previous timetable which was in force in November.

Not according to network rail.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/electronic-national-rail-timetable/electronic%20National%20Rail%20Timetable/02.%20May%202022/London%20North%20East%20Route/035%20Leeds%20and%20Bradford%20to%20Keighley,%20Skipton,%20Lancaster,%20Morecambe,%20Heysham%20Port,%20Settle,%20Appleby%20and%20Carlisle.pdf

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The last week of November I had bought a ticket for the 8:55am train from Keighley to Leeds which was delayed by 25 and eventually 35 minutes so I had no choice but to get on the next train which was 9:15am train to Leeds, the reason I had no choice was because I had a train to King’s Cross to get at 10:25am. The ticket insepector on the keighley train took my details cos I didn’t have a valid ticket even though he knew the earlier train was delayed, I offered to pay then and there the £2.40 for another ticket

What ticket did you hold for the 08:55 from Keighley to Leeds.

£2.40 is the price of a particular level of an Advance ticket from Keighley to Leeds, route "AP Northern".

£5.80 is the Anytime Day Single fare.

Presume the OP had an advance ticket booked for a Northern service other than the one on which they actually travelled, and have been charged the £5.80 Anytime Day Single fare plus a £90.00 "admin" charge.

Slightly confused as to the circumstances in which the OP travelled on the "wrong" train, if this was what actually happened; was there a day in late November when a couple of trains from Skipton/Keighley inbound to Leeds ran out of sequence due to service disruption?

 

[danm14]

Not according to network rail.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/electronic-national-rail-timetable/electronic%20National%20Rail%20Timetable/02.%20May%202022/London%20North%20East%20Route/035%20Leeds%20and%20Bradford%20to%20Keighley,%20Skipton,%20Lancaster,%20Morecambe,%20Heysham%20Port,%20Settle,%20Appleby%20and%20Carlisle.pdf

Regardless of what Network Rail said in May 2022 was going to happen six months later, the fact of the matter is that in late November, a train from Keighley to Leeds was scheduled to run at 8:55am, that train being the 7:25am from Appleby to Leeds - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G90229/2022-11-28/detailed

 

[Loneranger12]

£2.40 is the price of a particular level of an Advance ticket from Keighley to Leeds, route "AP Northern".

£5.80 is the Anytime Day Single fare.

Presume the OP had an advance ticket booked for a Northern service other than the one on which they actually travelled, and have been charged the £5.80 Anytime Day Single fare plus a £90.00 "admin" charge.

Slightly confused as to the circumstances in which the OP travelled on the "wrong" train, if this was what actually happened; was there a day in late November when a couple of trains from Skipton/Keighley inbound to Leeds ran out of sequence due to service disruption?

Hi thanks for replying, yes it was an advanced ticket on Monday 28th November that I booked which I understand means I have to get on a specific train ( i use trainline as no ticket office was open on strike days) and when I got to keighley station I saw my train was delayed at the time by 25minutes obviously I know they can make up time etc but I couldnt take that chance that day, as for the time of the train I actually got on I’m almost certain it was 9:15 but could have been slightly before that, however on the letter it says the inspection was taken place at 9:18 and the inspector spoke to me almost as soon as I got on that train to leeds,
also I double checked my train time it was 10:19 from Leeds to King’s Cross

I appreciate all the replies, im just wondering if I have any way to appeal or not? Because I do feel that the ticket inspector could have let me pay for a ticket then and there knowing the situation but I know he has a job to do and again I still feel like he shouldn’t have told me to reply to the letter stating what happened and I’ll be fine, he must’ve known there was more than a basic £5.80 charge coming my way

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum.

We need to know more details to offer the best advice.

What ticket did you hold for the 08:55 from Keighley to Leeds. Can you post a copy of it here with any identifying details redacted.
Can you post a copy of the letter you have received from Northern, again with any personal details redacted.

Hi, the letter from Nothern trains limited stated that on Monday the 28th November that I travelled on the wrong train and that I should pay the £5.80 fine within 14 days of receiving the letter (I received on the 9th December) and that failure to do so would result in a £150 fine and prosecution proceedings

Any communication since then has been through emails in which I have told them the circumstances and sent screenshots of evidence and each time they’ve replied and came across disinterested and telling me to pay

 

[30907]

Unfortunately, you have fallen foul of the railway ticket system - which is exactly the same in Luton BTW as Up North.
Your Advance ticket didn't give you permission to travel on a different train, and you didn't buy a ticket that would have been valid.
The staff member gave you the cheapest possible opportunity to pay the "walk-on" fare of £5.80, rather than issuing a penalty fare.
You chose not to pay this immediately, and they have now added the standard administrative charge of £90.
I would suggest you pay this within 14 days of receiving the letter, to stop matters escalating, but then write to Northern Customer Relations and point out that you were offered the chance to pay £5.80 and that they failed to take into account current postal delays when they added an administrative charge.
(IMO you are not liable for this, and the fact that you mailed them makes no difference - almost certainly the system is automated anyway.)

PS for future reference - if you had missed the 10.15 at Leeds because of a delay, LNER would have been obliged to convey you on the next available train.

 

[lyndhurst25]

£2.40 is the price of a particular level of an Advance ticket from Keighley to Leeds, route "AP Northern".

£5.80 is the Anytime Day Single fare.

Presume the OP had an advance ticket booked for a Northern service other than the one on which they actually travelled, and have been charged the £5.80 Anytime Day Single fare plus a £90.00 "admin" charge.

Slightly confused as to the circumstances in which the OP travelled on the "wrong" train, if this was what actually happened; was there a day in late November when a couple of trains from Skipton/Keighley inbound to Leeds ran out of sequence due to service disruption?

Indeed there was, the day the OP travelled.

http://timetablehistory.com/Station.aspx?StationID=2741&Date=28/11/2022

 

[AlterEgo]

Pathetic by Northern to take someone’s details for this sort of misdemeanour, especially when the passenger was a victim of disruption.

Pay the settlement and resolve next time to be extremely difficult with them.

 

[Loneranger12]

Unfortunately, you have fallen foul of the railway ticket system - which is exactly the same in Luton BTW as Up North.
Your Advance ticket didn't give you permission to travel on a different train, and you didn't buy a ticket that would have been valid.
The staff member gave you the cheapest possible opportunity to pay the "walk-on" fare of £5.80, rather than issuing a penalty fare.
You chose not to pay this immediately, and they have now added the standard administrative charge of £90.
I would suggest you pay this within 14 days of receiving the letter, to stop matters escalating, but then write to Northern Customer Relations and point out that you were offered the chance to pay £5.80 and that they failed to take into account current postal delays when they added an administrative charge.
(IMO you are not liable for this, and the fact that you mailed them makes no difference - almost certainly the system is automated anyway.)

PS for future reference - if you had missed the 10.15 at Leeds because of a delay, LNER would have been obliged to convey you on the next available train.

Hi thank you I will take that on board for future!

It seems by what everyone is saying that I’m going to have to pay the ticket fee and admin fee.

This is incredibly frustrating as even when I spoke with the ticket inspector at the time I offered several times to just pay for a new ticket, (I’d even seen him later issue a ticket to someone who didn’t have time to get a ticket for said train) and I did what the guy said and replied to the letter explaining my situation and by following all of this I’ve ended up having to pay more.

I appreciate all the replies and advice

 

[lyndhurst25]

Advance tickets Terms and Conditions

Advance Train Tickets | National Rail

Book ahead and save money with Advance tickets. They are great value, and ideal for saving money on long journeys. They must be bought in advance and are only valid on the date and train specified.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

“If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.”

Is that not relevant here?

 

[Cantab26]

Indeed there was, the day the OP travelled.

http://timetablehistory.com/Station.aspx?StationID=2741&Date=28/11/2022

Hmm…the 0855 was running about 15mins late on departure from Skipton and departed Keighley at 0907, arriving Leeds at 0938.

There is no 0915 train from Keighley to Leeds which would (in any event) have departed after the booked train.

There was an 0901 from Keighley to Leeds which (as far as I can see) was running on time, arriving Leeds at 0932.

In these circumstances, given the inconsistencies with and inaccuracies in the OPs account of what happened and when plus the fact that taking the booked train would still have left ample time to make the connection at Leeds I can understand why Northern have not been minded to revisit the matter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2022 ==

Advance tickets Terms and Conditions

Advance Train Tickets | National Rail

Book ahead and save money with Advance tickets. They are great value, and ideal for saving money on long journeys. They must be bought in advance and are only valid on the date and train specified.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

“If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.”

Is that not relevant here?

Yes, it is relevant, but I am not convinced that the OP would wish to be arguing this in front of a bench of lay magistrates as a defence. With appropriate legal representation I would expect the OP to succeed, but it is a risk that can be avoided.

 

[Haywain]

“If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.”

Is that not relevant here?

It might be debatable but the OP does seem to have been treated very harshly.

 

[Loneranger12]

Hmm…the 0855 was running about 15mins late on departure from Skipton and departed Keighley at 0907, arriving Leeds at 0938.

There is no 0915 train from Keighley to Leeds which would (in any event) have departed after the booked train.

There was an 0901 from Keighley to Leeds which (as far as I can see) was running on time, arriving Leeds at 0932.

In these circumstances, given the inconsistencies with and inaccuracies in the OPs account of what happened and when plus the fact that taking the booked train would still have left ample time to make the connection at Leeds I can understand why Northern have not been minded to revisit the matter.

With due respect, I don’t travel on trains often so when I saw the delays and I didn’t know why there is a delay at that point so I’ve just jumped on the next train incase it’s delayed even further cos in my mind I need to catch my train to london, I could well have got on the 9:01 but at the time I didn’t think I had to remember that, I’ve just gone on what I could remember at the time unfortunately.

But I see what you’re saying about why they would be uninterested about helping me. Thanks for your reply

 

[Cantab26]

Hi thank you I will take that on board for future!

It seems by what everyone is saying that I’m going to have to pay the ticket fee and admin fee.

This is incredibly frustrating as even when I spoke with the ticket inspector at the time I offered several times to just pay for a new ticket, (I’d even seen him later issue a ticket to someone who didn’t have time to get a ticket for said train) and I did what the guy said and replied to the letter explaining my situation and by following all of this I’ve ended up having to pay more.

I appreciate all the replies and advice

You have two choices:

1. Don’t pay it. This seems likely to lead to a prosecution given Northern’s attitude thus far. You appear to have a fairly strong defence available, but from your posting you would need a suitably qualified solicitor to present this for you because you are not on top of the detail of what happened (times, &c.) and it would need written evidence to be adduced in accordance with the correct court procedures.
2. Pay it and try to reclaim, through customer services in the first instance and then (if unsuccessful) through a small claim in the County Court.

Members of this forum (myself included) may be able and willing to assist you, subject to further evaluation.

Overall, you are better off paying it promptly even if you then decide not to try to recover the money because that should head off a prosecution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2022 ==

But I see what you’re saying about why they would be uninterested about helping me. Thanks for your reply

It’s not so much about Northern being uninterested in “helping” you - it’s simply that your story is not compelling or convincing to them because of the discrepancies in the details.

If this ended up in a prosecution and I was acting as your defence agent then I would be reluctant to lead you as an oral witness in court. This is not any criticism of you personally: it is simply the case that (based on your posting in this thread) it would be risky so to do.

 

[some bloke]

If you post all the correspondence here with identifying details removed, people might spot something to help more.

 

[miklcct]

Advance tickets Terms and Conditions

Advance Train Tickets | National Rail

Book ahead and save money with Advance tickets. They are great value, and ideal for saving money on long journeys. They must be bought in advance and are only valid on the date and train specified.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

“If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.”

Is that not relevant here?

I think the matter ought to be escalated if the trains were indeed run out of sequence.

Isn't it an automatic right to take the next available train satisfying the routing restrictions if there is a delay while travelling?

 

[Watershed]

I think the matter ought to be escalated if the trains were indeed run out of sequence.

Isn't it an automatic right to take the next available train satisfying the routing restrictions if there is a delay while travelling?

Unfortunately not - if the booked train is merely delayed, rather than cancelled, I don't think this necessarily gives rise to an automatic right to take the next train. The delay would need to be anticipated to cause you to arrive at your final destination more than an hour (i.e. at least 61 mins) late to trigger the right to re-routing. This is one of many oversight and issues in the NRCoT.

I nevertheless concur that, whilst there are likely to be viable legal defences and arguments to be made in the event of a prosecution, the most pragmatic option is sadly likely to be to pay the ransom settlement, unless the OP is willing to appoint legal representation to defend themselves in Court.

This still leaves open the option of trying to claim back the settlement afterwards, albeit that may also involve quite a lot of hassle and there is no guarantee it would be successful.

 

[island]

Unfortunately not - if the booked train is merely delayed, rather than cancelled, I don't think this necessarily gives rise to an automatic right to take the next train. The delay would need to be anticipated to cause you to arrive at your final destination more than an hour (i.e. at least 61 mins) late to trigger the right to re-routing. This is one of many oversight and issues in the NRCoT.

I nevertheless concur that, whilst there are likely to be viable legal defences and arguments to be made in the event of a prosecution, the most pragmatic option is sadly likely to be to pay the ransom settlement, unless the OP is willing to appoint legal representation to defend themselves in Court.

This still leaves open the option of trying to claim back the settlement afterwards, albeit that may also involve quite a lot of hassle and there is no guarantee it would be successful.

I concur with this entirely.

Very, very shoddy practice by Northern, but seemingly within the law.

Any attempt to claim back any settlement should not be pursued within the six months after travel, so that the prosecution deadline expires.

 

[miklcct]

Unfortunately not - if the booked train is merely delayed, rather than cancelled, I don't think this necessarily gives rise to an automatic right to take the next train. The delay would need to be anticipated to cause you to arrive at your final destination more than an hour (i.e. at least 61 mins) late to trigger the right to re-routing. This is one of many oversight and issues in the NRCoT.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

What I interpret is that, when the booked train fails to show up on time at the departure station, the "if delays occur while travelling" has already occurred, therefore, "you will be allowed to take the next available train(s)" will come in effect.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Unfortunately not - if the booked train is merely delayed, rather than cancelled, I don't think this necessarily gives rise to an automatic right to take the next train. The delay would need to be anticipated to cause you to arrive at your final destination more than an hour (i.e. at least 61 mins) late to trigger the right to re-routing. This is one of many oversight and issues in the NRCoT.

I nevertheless concur that, whilst there are likely to be viable legal defences and arguments to be made in the event of a prosecution, the most pragmatic option is sadly likely to be to pay the ransom settlement, unless the OP is willing to appoint legal representation to defend themselves in Court.

This still leaves open the option of trying to claim back the settlement afterwards, albeit that may also involve quite a lot of hassle and there is no guarantee it would be successful.

Not sure I agree. I’m willing to be corrected though.

Can you provide a link the regulations that back up what you are saying, effectively overriding the published Advance Ticket Terms and Conditions? They clearly say that “If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey”. No mention of a minimum delay time and that you WILL (not may) be allowed to take the NEXT train.

I thought that all that re-routing rights stuff was a fairly recently introduced EU thing? The Advance Ticket T&Cs Have been around for years.

If I was in the same position as the OP then I would have fine exactly the same thing, apart from telling (not asking) the guard what I was doing as I boarded, knowing how trigger happy Northern revenue protection (racket) staff can be.

 

[jamiearmley]

Like a lot of the Nrcot and other sets of railway 'conditions', a lot depends on how you interpret badly worded, less than clear, poorly constructed sentences.

Personally, i would take the 'next available train' thing to mean a connection mid journey : so if train A is late, and train B is missed, you may catch the next train after train B.

Different readers of the same document will have differing interpretations however, due to the poor construction of the same.

 

[Cantab26]

What I interpret is that, when the booked train fails to show up on time at the departure station, the "if delays occur while travelling" has already occurred, therefore, "you will be allowed to take the next available train(s)" will come in effect.

Not sure I agree. I’m willing to be corrected though.

Can you provide a link the regulations that back up what you are saying, effectively overriding the published Advance Ticket Terms and Conditions? They clearly say that “If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey”. No mention of a minimum delay time and that you WILL (not may) be allowed to take the NEXT train.

I thought that all that re-routing rights stuff was a fairly recently introduced EU thing? The Advance Ticket T&Cs Have been around for years.

If I was in the same position as the OP then I would have fine exactly the same thing, apart from telling (not asking) the guard what I was doing as I boarded, knowing how trigger happy Northern revenue protection (racket) staff can be.

Like a lot of the Nrcot and other sets of railway 'conditions', a lot depends on how you interpret badly worded, less than clear, poorly constructed sentences.

Personally, i would take the 'next available train' thing to mean a connection mid journey : so if train A is late, and train B is missed, you may catch the next train after train B.

Different readers of the same document will have differing interpretations however, due to the poor construction of the same.

Defence to a prosecution is not the forum that I would choose for this argument to take place.

Hence, the advice to the OP to pay under sufferance with a view to (optionally) reclaiming the money later once prosecution is no longer in prospect.

That being said, if the defence is properly articulated then I would expect the prosecutor to withdraw on the day after a ‘quick word’ from the defence agent prior to first hearing. That would probably require the OP to procure appropriate professional assistance though in order to communicate the crux of the issue clearly.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Like a lot of the Nrcot and other sets of railway 'conditions', a lot depends on how you interpret badly worded, less than clear, poorly constructed sentences.

Personally, i would take the 'next available train' thing to mean a connection mid journey : so if train A is late, and train B is missed, you may catch the next train after train B.

Different readers of the same document will have differing interpretations however, due to the poor construction of the same.

I agree that the current information is very badly worded, explicitly giving you the right, when using an advance ticket, to take the next train (same TOC, same route) if you miss a connection due to a train being delayed, but are not clear on your rights if your first, and possibly only, train is delayed. Perhaps they thought that it was so obvious that the same rights applied to the 1st train as to the 2nd/3rd/4th/etc trains on a journey that they didn’t think that it was worth mentioning?!

Anyway, I have found some common sense advice from internal railway document “The Manual” (now replaced) in an old thread from 2013.

Advance ticket - missing a connection if the first train was London Underground

I believe that if you're connecting from one train to another with a through ticket, and miss the second train due to a delay with the first, you're allowed to get the next train available train even if you have an advance ticket for the original train, or an off-peak ticket when you've just...

www.railforums.co.uk

Frequently Asked Questions about travelling with Advance fares.
Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passengers responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held.

(my bold and underlining)

 

[Kite159]

Where would someone draw the line if their booked train was delayed by 30+ minutes on a line with a frequent service operated by the same company, so by waiting for their booked train they will delay themselves and cost the industry money with delay repay

No doubt if someone did stand to wait for their booked train, only for it to go sailing through without stopping at short notice (say a Carlisle - Leeds with all stops after Skipton ripped out when it arrived at Skipton) and tried to claim delay repay Northern will probably reject it saying "you should have caught the stopper to reduce the delay"

Afterall its not like Northern lost out on any fare income, you just ran into a jobsworth guard.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I hope Loneranger12 comes back with copies of the (redacted) correspondence. In my opinion, they have been treated worse than harshly. Paying the charge and then trying to cliam it back may be the “safest” option for them, but £95.80 is a lot on money to be without for many people.

Also, they haven’t told us about their onward journey to London. It looks like that would’t have gone without a hitch or two and I hope that they claimed for the delay there.

 

[30907]

I hope Loneranger12 comes back with copies of the (redacted) correspondence. In my onward journey to London. It looks like that would’t have gone without a hitch or two and I hope that they claimed for the delay there.

I am not sure they have told us the date of travel, and I can't identify it from their description of the delay to the Appleby train.

I think the paragraph from The Manual that you have quoted is quite clear and does not cover a delayed departure from the initial station.

(The whole idea of Advance tickets on commuter routes is IMO nonsense but that's OT.)

 

[Loneranger12]

I hope Loneranger12 comes back with copies of the (redacted) correspondence. In my opinion, they have been treated worse than harshly. Paying the charge and then trying to cliam it back may be the “safest” option for them, but £95.80 is a lot on money to be without for many people.

Also, they haven’t told us about their onward journey to London. It looks like that would’t have gone without a hitch or two and I hope that they claimed for the delay there.

Lyndhurst25, I appreciate all of your advice it’s been great and from everyone else.

My journey on 28th November to london surprisingly went smoothly it was quite an empty train to what I’m used to and arrived on time

So i have an update! I didn’t pay the £95.80 I instead contacted customer service of northern asking why there’s an added £90 charge without any explanation whatsoever and that I received the original letter (regarding the £5.80 fine) on the 9th which is well under the 14days I’ve been given.

This morning I received an email form
Northern saying that they have retracted the £90 charge. Or in the ladies words “ the charge has been retracted now go ahead and pay the fare fine”

The £5.80 has been paid now. Thank you all for the help