Future of the 350/2s...

[bussnapperwm]

With the London North Western 350/2s being due to be replaced soon, what do people think is next for them?

Personally I think that the middle cars could be ideal for moving into either the 350/1s to make them 5 car units, or moving into the former 450/5s to make them 5 car units. There again, could they have shoes fitted and converted to become extra units for South Western Railway (maybe to become a subclass of the 450?)?

 

[JonathanH]

With the London North Western 350/2s being due to be replaced soon, what do people think is next for them?

Storage at Long Marston until they are needed anywhere else.

It needs to accepted that any off lease trains do not have an easy path back to use.

Personally I think that the middle cars could be ideal for moving into either the 350/1s to make them 5 car units, or moving into the former 450/5s to make them 5 car units. There again, could they have shoes fitted and converted to become extra units for South Western Railway (maybe to become a subclass of the 450?)?

As for conversion programmes, every single one seems to have had its issues. The money just isn't there for more conversion programme mistakes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, coming up with a new proposal will be challenging, once we consider previous suggestions during the last 2 years.

Search results for query: 350/2s

Therefore I’d stick with storage as the likeliest option. Probability of any form of conversion will be incredibly low.

 

[JonathanH]

Well, coming up with a new proposal will be challenging, once we consider previous suggestions during the last 2 years.

Search results for query: 350/2s

Therefore I’d stick with storage as the likeliest option. Probability of any form of conversion will be incredibly low.

Indeed, unlike the 379s there has never been a credible indication put forward of what the 350/2s would be doing when released by LNR.

 

[Brubulus]

Sent to GWR to allow their 387s to be sent to SE. Or converted to 3rd rail and directly sent to SE, conversion is complex so the former is probably the better option.

 

[JonathanH]

Sent to GWR to allow their 387s to be sent to SE. Or converted to 3rd rail and directly sent to SE, conversion is complex so the former is probably the better option.

I think the barrier is that 387s are unsuitable for the SE metro work without a substantial rebuild.

 

[RailWonderer]

Reformed to 3 car units so that Scotrail can use them as 6 cars to replace 318s and 320s. That would be the least costliest conversion out there. They could also be shortened and replace 323s on Northern but they seem happy with those.

Other than that storage, and after a couple of years, scrap if nobody wants them. If the DafT was sane they would encourage use of these units as opposed to replacements but Transport Scotland might huff at that and demand more bulk funding for shiny new trains.

Leasing costs with the ROSCO Porterbrook would need to be renegotiated, like the 379s procured at around the same time, they are leased at pre 2009 levels.

 

[Brubulus]

I think the barrier is that 387s are unsuitable for the SE metro work without a substantial rebuild.

What makes them so unsuitable, do they draw significantly more power than other electrostars?

 

[JonathanH]

What makes them so unsuitable, do they draw significantly more power than other electrostars?

Interior layout for metro work on busy routes doesn't meet the suggested specification.

 

[Brubulus]

Interior layout for metro work on busy routes doesn't meet the suggested specification.

It isnt perfect for the work, but they coped on TL... its not like they've got large first class sections (like 379s) or no 3rd rail (like 350/2s)

 

[Nottingham59]

Other than that storage, and after a couple of years, scrap if nobody wants them.

Much as it pains me to say it, I think they could be used by EMR for services to Leicester, as soon as the wires are extended the four miles past Wigston. It would make much more financial sense than ordering additional 810s to add any capacity on the MML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much as it pains me to say it, I think they could be used by EMR for services to Leicester, as soon as the wires are extended the four miles past Wigston. It would make much more financial sense than ordering additional 810s to add any capacity on the MML.

If the 360s are that knackered, use them to replace those (bonus through corridor) and scrap the 360s.

 

[tbtc]

Are we in danger of running out of sidings, given the apparent need to store hundreds (thousands?) of midlife EMUs in them?

Will someone have to apply for planning permission to build more sidings to accommodate yet more fleets, because the Government are too tight to fund capacity increases but also too frit to take the tough decisions to be honest about the reduced capacity in the future?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we in danger of running out of sidings, given the apparent need to store hundreds (thousands?) of midlife EMUs in them?

Will someone have to apply for planning permission to build more sidings to accommodate yet more fleets, because the Government are too tight to fund capacity increases but also too frit to take the tough decisions to be honest about the reduced capacity in the future?

Shove them on the branch lines you want to close?

But in all seriousness it's down to the ROSCOs who own them whether to keep or scrap.

 

[JonathanH]

Are we in danger of running out of sidings, given the apparent need to store hundreds (thousands?) of midlife EMUs in them?

Porterbrook are likely to have space at Long Marston for 37 350s once the 769s and other redundant rolling stock goes for scrap.

 

[778]

With the London North Western 350/2s being due to be replaced soon, what do people think is next for them?

Personally I think that the middle cars could be ideal for moving into either the 350/1s to make them 5 car units, or moving into the former 450/5s to make them 5 car units. There again, could they have shoes fitted and converted to become extra units for South Western Railway (maybe to become a subclass of the 450?)?

Given how long it is taking to get the 730s into service, I don't think they will be gone for quite some time yet. I think it will be at least 2 years until they are replaced, probably even longer than that.

 

[317 forever]

Maybe they could replace 357s on C2C.

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe they could replace 357s on C2C.

The 357s aren't due for replacement. The 350s aren't set up for DOO operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 357s aren't due for replacement. The 350s aren't set up for DOO operation.

While I too think this unlikely there is an off the shelf kit to fit a 350 to DOO, all the other 350s have it now.

 

[D365]

Maybe they could replace 357s on C2C.

36 Desiros to replace 74 Electrostars?

 

[JonathanH]

37 Desiros to replace 74 Electrostars?

...with a depot contracted out to Alstom. Not happening, even for half the fleet.

 

[A0]

It isnt perfect for the work, but they coped on TL... its not like they've got large first class sections (like 379s) or no 3rd rail (like 350/2s)

Thameslink also is a large, outer suburban network which the 387s were ideal for. They were well suited to Bedford - Brighton services, not so good for all stoppers from Luton-Sutton.

The issue is Thameslink as a single network has more than one different service type. Look over at the GN or WCML there has always been different stock on the inner suburban (Moorgate / Watford DC) to the outers. Thameslink uses one unit type to cover everything.

 

[Chiltern006]

what if they went to GN, and their 387s went down south. would make GN fully siemens then

 

[David Goddard]

what if they went to GN, and their 387s went down south. would make GN fully siemens then

Well thats quite credible, and the fleet size fits nicely as well. Single manufacturer stock at depots must help in the long run (even if ony a few parts are similar). However would advocate that the 3+2 is changed to 2+2 (assume that can be done by just removing the outer seats, lets not get bogged down in dft permission to do it etc.
The GN livery would suit these too, as seen on a fine model layout of Kings Lynn that someone I follow on facebook has built, and has used Cl350 models vinyled into FCC and GN liveries.
387s then move South for Brighton Main Line, unless of course by that time the Western wires have been extended and GWR need more for Oxford, Basingstoke and more.

 

[fgwrich]

I know I've said it before, but I still feel the best option would be to simply do a deal with LNWR / Siemens / Porterbrook & Angel, refurbish the 350/2s to 350/1 standards, keep the /2s on the WCML and send the 350/1s "back" to SWR. SWR / Porterbrook can then bin off the 458 conversion idea, giving SWR a predominately Siemens / Alstom EMU Fleet and keeping the Portsmouth line users happy in the process. Of course, there has been suggestions that Siemens wouldn't be able to cope regarding the depot space, but surely Bournemouth, a depot which has looked after the 444s for the best part of 20 years, could cope - or perhaps become an Siemens depot too?

Of course, Money, Passenger Numbers, Porterbrook & Angel are the usual stumbling points and why such a plan would be unlikely to come about unfortunately.

 

[BurtonM]

Finish electrifying to Stalybridge and have them replace 2x150s on Southport-Stalybridge, and 323s on Hadfield

 

[43096]

I know I've said it before, but I still feel the best option would be to simply do a deal with LNWR / Siemens / Porterbrook & Angel, refurbish the 350/2s to 350/1 standards, keep the /2s on the WCML and send the 350/1s "back" to SWR. SWR / Porterbrook can then bin off the 458 conversion idea, giving SWR a predominately Siemens / Alstom EMU Fleet and keeping the Portsmouth line users happy in the process. Of course, there has been suggestions that Siemens wouldn't be able to cope regarding the depot space, but surely Bournemouth, a depot which has looked after the 444s for the best part of 20 years, could cope - or perhaps become an Siemens depot too?

Of course, Money, Passenger Numbers, Porterbrook & Angel are the usual stumbling points and why such a plan would be unlikely to come about unfortunately.

SWR don’t need them, though, once the 701s enter service. That’s why the 458 conversion is paused.

 

[fgwrich]

SWR don’t need them, though, once the 701s enter service. That’s why the 458 conversion is paused.

That's why I included passenger numbers in the usual caveats. Of course SWR also has itself to blame for over ordering 701s in the first place - unless, Rock Rail / SWR can cut the order short depending on how far Alstom are in the production line.

I would suggest it's less of a pie in the sky idea than some suggested though, the 350/1s still retaining their duel voltage capacity even if it hasn't been used since the Southern / LM hire finished.

 

[D365]

That's why I included passenger numbers in the usual caveats. Of course SWR also has itself to blame for over ordering 701s in the first place - unless, Rock Rail / SWR can cut the order short depending on how far Alstom are in the production line.

My understanding of the situation was that shifting travel patterns post-COVID has resulted in less pronounced peaks.

 

[43096]

That's why I included passenger numbers in the usual caveats. Of course SWR also has itself to blame for over ordering 701s in the first place - unless, Rock Rail / SWR can cut the order short depending on how far Alstom are in the production line.

I really don’t understand why Alstom haven’t had partial termination notices for the 701s and 720s. The delivery delays are significant enough that that ought to be a reasonable penalty.