TfGM Bus franchising

[Man of Kent]

Is this a 'super' replacing Stagecoach Wigan and Arriva/Rotala's Bolton garages?

No, just Wigan.

 

[mic]

I know you know but to the uninitiated, public sector bids have a 10 day "standstill" period between the award being notified to the lucky recipient(s) and the public announcement of the award. This is to allow any challenges to be raised by the parties involved in the process.



I don't know if they would risk having such information coming out ahead of an award. First Oldham also has a batch of 30 2013 e300s and 4 Eclipses - could be replacements for those.

Oldham only have 29 E300s. 67406 is in another part of firstgroup.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is this a 'super' replacing Stagecoach Wigan and Arriva/Rotala's Bolton garages?

If they were to have a super depot, not certain that a spot near the centre of Wigan would be the correct location. More like Atherton

I don't know if Bryn depot is leased but the view might be that a Wigan depot is better situated .

Oldham only have 29 E300s 67406 is in another part of firstgroup

I knew it was roughly 30 but hadn't bothered counting them

 

[WatcherZero]

TfGM are only owning the super depots, winners of the smaller franchises are able to use whatever premises they want.
the Martland Park site is a backup planning application for a temporary depot (which could be expanded to permanent depot) in case Stagecoach refused to sell or lease their depot.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TfGM are only owning the super depots, winners of the smaller franchises are able to use whatever premises they want.
the Martland Park site is a backup planning application for a temporary depot (which could be expanded to permanent depot) in case Stagecoach refused to sell or lease their depot.

So, purely as an example...

If the main Bolton franchise was won by First (!), the likely plan would be to take over their old depot from Rotala. Meanwhile, if Rotala won one of the smaller franchises, they might still be able to use their Eccles depot or even something else?

 

[Man of Kent]

TfGM are only owning the super depots, winners of the smaller franchises are able to use whatever premises they want.
the Martland Park site is a backup planning application for a temporary depot (which could be expanded to permanent depot) in case Stagecoach refused to sell or lease their depot.

The planning application suggests Martland Park is very much a permanent structure, including a 10 bay workshop.

So, purely as an example...

If the main Bolton franchise was won by First (!), the likely plan would be to take over their old depot from Rotala. Meanwhile, if Rotala won one of the smaller franchises, they might still be able to use their Eccles depot or even something else?

Rotala has indicated (in its annual report) that it is willing to sell Bolton depot (at the right price). However, as a larger operator, it is barred from bidding for the smaller franchises, so Eccles' future may well be leased to someone else.

It's worth noting that the Bolton large tender includes routes operated by Arriva as well as Diamond (and the First Vantage routes); what I don't know is if it excludes any routes currently run by Diamond. Where tendered journeys are run by a different operator, those have (unsurprisingly) been included in the main franchise.

 

[WatcherZero]

There hasnt been any move to provide a temporary Bolton depot so its likely that issues been settled, the Stockport depot already has the transfer in place and likely others do too. The Wigan planning application was made in early May but they said they had until October for a deal to be reached with Stagecoach before any decision to proceed was required. Looking at the plans there is provision for charging points for all the parked buses and one of the three transformers on site is dedicated to supplying it. Would remind you that just because planning permission is in place for something doesnt mean it has to be built, you can underdevelop and its easier to apply for everything and not build than to resubmit a fresh planning application to move from temporary to permanent infrastructure.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There hasnt been any move to provide a temporary Bolton depot so its likely that issues been settled, the Stockport depot already has the transfer in place and likely others do too.

With regards to the Stockport depot, is it the case that the Daw Bank depot was in the area that was planned to be part of a total redevelopment of that part of the town area?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Rotala has indicated (in its annual report) that it is willing to sell Bolton depot (at the right price). However, as a larger operator, it is barred from bidding for the smaller franchises, so Eccles' future may well be leased to someone else.

It's worth noting that the Bolton large tender includes routes operated by Arriva as well as Diamond (and the First Vantage routes); what I don't know is if it excludes any routes currently run by Diamond. Where tendered journeys are run by a different operator, those have (unsurprisingly) been included in the main franchise.

I'm unfamiliar with the rules of this tender process but seems unfair that they are barred from going for smaller franchises.

As it is, First will be relieved to be free of the Vantage problem

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm unfamiliar with the rules of this tender process but seems unfair that they are barred from going for smaller franchises.

One of the main initial objections from small operators was that there was the danger of them completely missing out.

If large operators were allowed to bid for small franchises as well as large ones they could easily bid on the basis of package bids thus potentially not allowing the small operators a look-in.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

One of the main initial objections from small operators was that there was the danger of them completely missing out.

If large operators were allowed to bid for small franchises as well as large ones they could easily bid on the basis of package bids thus potentially not allowing the small operators a look-in.

You can always put in measures to ensure standalone bids. I did one in 2020 with two locations and they had to be fully independent. Just as well as we won one but not the other!!

Anyhow, we'll find out in a week or so and then this thread will explode!

 

[Goldfish62]

You can always put in measures to ensure standalone bids. I did one in 2020 with two locations and they had to be fully independent. Just as well as we won one but not the other!!

Anyhow, we'll find out in a week or so and then this thread will explode!

Yes, it's certainly going to be interesting!

 

[317 forever]

One of the main initial objections from small operators was that there was the danger of them completely missing out.

If large operators were allowed to bid for small franchises as well as large ones they could easily bid on the basis of package bids thus potentially not allowing the small operators a look-in.

This distinction between large and small franchises could discriminate against operators unable to bid for certain routes.

In this respect London is fairer. Mind you, in some cases where routes have a high PVR it is hard for any new operator to win them. So routes like the 36, 38 and 43 look likely to remain with the applicable successor to London Buses for many years to come.

 

[507020]

I'm unfamiliar with the rules of this tender process but seems unfair that they are barred from going for smaller franchises.

As it is, First will be relieved to be free of the Vantage problem

Would you like to enlighten me as to what the problem with the Vantage operation is for First and do we know the outcomes of the tender yet?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Would you like to enlighten me as to what the problem with the Vantage operation is for First and do we know the outcomes of the tender yet?

They took it on "at a price" - not certain if it's a fixed price contract. Whatever it was, it was regarded as onerous which is why Diamond didn't take it on when they bought Bolton depot.

 

[Leedsbusman]

The planning application suggests Martland Park is very much a permanent structure, including a 10 bay workshop.

Rotala has indicated (in its annual report) that it is willing to sell Bolton depot (at the right price). However, as a larger operator, it is barred from bidding for the smaller franchises, so Eccles' future may well be leased to someone else.

It's worth noting that the Bolton large tender includes routes operated by Arriva as well as Diamond (and the First Vantage routes); what I don't know is if it excludes any routes currently run by Diamond. Where tendered journeys are run by a different operator, those have (unsurprisingly) been included in the main franchise.

One of the main initial objections from small operators was that there was the danger of them completely missing out.

If large operators were allowed to bid for small franchises as well as large ones they could easily bid on the basis of package bids thus potentially not allowing the small operators a look-in.

Anyone can bid for anything. There is nothing to stop a small operator bidding for a large one or a large operator bidding for a small one.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone can bid for anything. There is nothing to stop a small operator bidding for a large one or a large operator bidding for a small one.

Not what I'd been informed, but thanks for the correction if that is indeed the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

do we know the outcomes of the tender yet?

Due to be announced on Friday (16th).

 

[Leyland Bus]

They took it on "at a price" - not certain if it's a fixed price contract. Whatever it was, it was regarded as onerous which is why Diamond didn't take it on when they bought Bolton depot.

Wasn't it that First were tied to the contract and couldn't (cheaply) get out of it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wasn't it that First were tied to the contract and couldn't (cheaply) get out of it?

Is it not the case that from inception until the advent of the Covid-19 pandemic, the Leigh Guided Busway exceeded the forecasted passenger usage numbers?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is it not the case that from inception until the advent of the Covid-19 pandemic, the Leigh Guided Busway exceeded the forecasted passenger usage numbers?

Indeed it did do so.

I confess that I don't know on what basis the contract is let and the revenue risk etc. Certainly that Bolton operated Vantage and the sale to Diamond excluded that. It may be that the contract could not be novated, but I had heard that it was classed as onerous. TransPennineExpress was a busy rail franchise that First had and ( prior to Covid) that lost them money!

 

[Goldfish62]

They took it on "at a price" - not certain if it's a fixed price contract. Whatever it was, it was regarded as onerous which is why Diamond didn't take it on when they bought Bolton depot.

I know it's not a fixed price Gross Cost contract. It may be something like the current Kent Fastrack arrangement, where Arriva run the services commercially in return for exclusive access to the Busways on payment of an access fee.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I know it's not a fixed price Gross Cost contract. It may be something like the current Kent Fastrack arrangement, where Arriva run the services commercially in return for exclusive access to the Busways on payment of an access fee.

Almost like a franchise!

As I say, I don't know the intricacies but First wanted out from Manchester but they couldn't move Vantage on when they exited Bolton.

 

[Goldfish62]

Almost like a franchise!

Yes, a proper franchise, unlike the TfGM "franchises" which will really be simple contracts!

 

[158756]

Is it not the case that from inception until the advent of the Covid-19 pandemic, the Leigh Guided Busway exceeded the forecasted passenger usage numbers?

Yes, but since the pandemic the busway is looking a much less sound investment. I wonder if TfGM taking control of service specifications will try to revive the service to Atherton?

 

[WatcherZero]

Almost like a franchise!

As I say, I don't know the intricacies but First wanted out from Manchester but they couldn't move Vantage on when they exited Bolton.

Heard the opposite, they kept the Vantage as it was so lucrative.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Heard the opposite, they kept the Vantage as it was so lucrative.

Definitely not what I heard. They had purchasers for all three depots and did not want to remain in Manchester.

 

[Goldfish62]

Definitely not what I heard. They had purchasers for all three depots and did not want to remain in Manchester.

Agreed. Same as what I heard.

 

[overthewater]

Does anyone know what the London based group is?

Go-Ahead set for GM bus franchise success

www.passengertransport.co.uk

As Passenger Transport went to press, it was understood that Go-Ahead was poised to be a big winner from the first tranche of tenders to franchise Greater Manchester’s bus network.

Informed sources said the London-based group was set to snap up at least one of the major contracts in the first area to be franchised, covering Wigan, Bolton and parts of Salford.

Go-Ahead’s success will be a bitter blow for its rivals, namely incumbent operators Stagecoach and Rotal

Go-Ahead’s success will be a bitter blow for its rivals, namely incumbent operators Stagecoach and Rotala, although it has been suggested that Rotala has also picked up some work from the first tranche of contracts.

The introduction of the first franchised bus services in Wigan, Bolton and Salford is expected to take place on September 17, 2023. Bids for the first contracts were received by Transport for Greater Manchester by September 9, with eight companies bidding for the two large contracts, two companies bidding for all except one of the small franchises, and a further company bidding for one small franchise.

Bidders were informed about whether they had succeeded or not on November 25, with contract awards expected to take place on December 16 following the obligatory standstill period.

The Expression of Interest for the second tranche of contracts, covering the north east of the region was issued in September and will be operational at the end of March 2024. The third tranche, covering the south of Greater Manchester, will be contracted by the end of March 2024 and be operational by January 5, 2025.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone know who the Lonodn Based group is?

Go-Ahead set for GM bus franchise success

www.passengertransport.co.uk

Is this the same Go-Ahead organisation who operate in Australia and New Zealand?

 

[158756]

Does anyone know who the Lonodn Based group is?

Go-Ahead set for GM bus franchise success

www.passengertransport.co.uk

It reads as if they think Go-Ahead are London-based, I don't think they're referencing another group.

So Go-Ahead for at least one large contract, Rotala possibly get something.