Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

[Taunton]

the main issue that kills off every suggestion is essentally: how do you do security?
if at stations how do you justify an entire international suite at every station along the route for 1 train a day.

Immigration is not the only security issue. Theft from passengers in sleeping vehicles has a longstanding history, and is only partially compensated by having a large, expensive staffing component. Such staff, inevitably on permanent nights, are then difficult to recruit and retain. The Taunton sleeper fire made securely locked-in accommodation a no-no.

For all that sleepers may look "popular", it's like trains to holiday resorts in August, a short peak. Combined with just one single trip per day, only three round trips a week, ow occupation per vehicle, extensive overnight maintenance work to suit daytime services, and a lot of other issues, just makes it a loss-making edge case.

 

[popeter45]

Brussels used to get you most of Germany (Hamburg and Berlin originating from Paris, Frankfurt, Nuernberg and Muenchen and into Austria on the Donauwalzer starting there) and even well into eastern Europe and Russia using the likes of the Jan Kiepura. It does seem to be the most sensible node for going that way.

would be a godsend to me if they reintoduced hamburg services, trying to get to copenhagen in a single day in the winter can be a challenge for sure

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

Immigration is not the only security issue. Theft from passengers in sleeping vehicles has a longstanding history, and is only partially compensated by having a large, expensive staffing component. Such staff, inevitably on permanent nights, are then difficult to recruit and retain. The Taunton sleeper fire made securely locked-in accommodation a no-no.

OeBB seem to have a solution to that with the new stock on order as they are providing secured lockers with the new pod couchettes, let see how they fare

 

[Taunton]

would be a godsend to me if they reintoduced hamburg services, trying to get to copenhagen in a single day in the winter can be a challenge for sure

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==


OeBB seem to have a solution to that with the new stock on order as they are providing secured lockers with the new pod couchettes, let see how they fare

Actually the simpler solution was that of the Soviet railways (as ever), where the bed lifted up on a hinge and you put your possessions in there and slept on top of them.

 

[pne]

Theft from passengers in sleeping vehicles has a longstanding history […]. The Taunton sleeper fire made securely locked-in accommodation a no-no.

Is it not possible to make a door that is securely locked from the outside but can easily be opened from the inside?

 

[geoffk]

When we join Schengen in a few years time, as a condition of rejoining the EU, most of these constraints will disappear!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not possible to make a door that is securely locked from the outside but can easily be opened from the inside?

Funnily enough yes, which is exactly what all UK Sleepers have, and many European ones too. Though most can be opened from the outside with a UIC "Vierkant" (like a reversed T key) which I imagine some thieves have.

I suspect the OP was thinking more of locking interconnecting doors between coaches, which isn't necessary if all the compartment doors are locked anyway.

 

[zwk500]

When we join Schengen in a few years time, as a condition of rejoining the EU, most of these constraints will disappear!

Even if we committed to rejoining the EU tomorrow, we wouldn't rejoin in 'a few years' time...

Of course, we aren't going to be seeking to rejoin the EU for the next 15 years for political reasons.

 

[RT4038]

Funnily enough yes, which is exactly what all UK Sleepers have, and many European ones too. Though most can be opened from the outside with a UIC "Vierkant" (like a reversed T key) which I imagine some thieves have.

This is always going to be a problem, because railway staff will need access in case of emergency, and this access can be abused in one way or another.

 

[Citybreak1]

What about a night train to Berlin via Amsterdam? (London to Amsterdam route) Could skip out Brussels as is being suggested for future services. People could join the train at Amsterdam at 4am or 6am?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Brussels used to get you most of Germany (Hamburg and Berlin originating from Paris, Frankfurt, Nuernberg and Muenchen and into Austria on the Donauwalzer starting there) and even well into eastern Europe and Russia using the likes of the Jan Kiepura. It does seem to be the most sensible node for going that way.

Paris and Brussels (Ostend) to Hamburg and to Berlin were both separate portions combining at Aachen. Brussels also had sleepers/couchettes/seats to Copenhagen and, via Luxembourg to Swiss and Italian destinations most of which started back at Ostend

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paris and Brussels (Ostend) to Hamburg and to Berlin were both separate portions combining at Aachen.

Not in recent(ish) years. In 1999 there was no Brussels to Hamburg at all as the train went a different way from Paris (you could change into it at Liege), but when DB NachtZug started in 2000ish it was diverted to serve Bruxelles Midi. That train had a portion to Berlin too.

At that point the Donauwalzer (Muenchen via Nuernberg and a portion to Wien) still started back at Oostende but was soon cut back to Bruxelles. I seem to recall a bit of a portion shuffle at Nuernberg which may have involved a train from Paris.

 

[SeanG]

Having read through this thread and understood the issues there are with customs/security etc., would a potentially easier solution be to offer Eurostar trains with through tickets and suitable times for connections to/from sleeper services at Amsterdam and Brussels?

Passengers could step off the Eurostar, into the lounge, and then onto the sleeper in one seemless journey, and the "faff" of changing could be dressed up as an extra opportunity for the lounge. They could even offer through baggage if possible (ie drop off at St Pancras and it's in your compartment on the sleeper - assuming solo occupancy as this would be a 'premium' service)

 

[zwk500]

Having read through this thread and understood the issues there are with customs/security etc., would a potentially easier solution be to offer Eurostar trains with through tickets and suitable times for connections to/from sleeper services at Amsterdam and Brussels?

Passengers could step off the Eurostar, into the lounge, and then onto the sleeper in one seemless journey, and the "faff" of changing could be dressed up as an extra opportunity for the lounge. They could even offer through baggage if possible (ie drop off at St Pancras and it's in your compartment on the sleeper - assuming solo occupancy as this would be a 'premium' service)

It would be yes, but where's the fun in that 7pm off London gets you to Brussels in time for 22:30 departures from Brussels, very civilised times.

 

[RT4038]

Having read through this thread and understood the issues there are with customs/security etc., would a potentially easier solution be to offer Eurostar trains with through tickets and suitable times for connections to/from sleeper services at Amsterdam and Brussels?

Passengers could step off the Eurostar, into the lounge, and then onto the sleeper in one seemless journey, and the "faff" of changing could be dressed up as an extra opportunity for the lounge. They could even offer through baggage if possible (ie drop off at St Pancras and it's in your compartment on the sleeper - assuming solo occupancy as this would be a 'premium' service)

I suspect that Customs may not be happy with that! And on the way back, the sleeper is late in Brussels due to the usual horrendous German timekeeping, so the E* connection has been missed, and there are no spare seats on the next two, so six hours in the lounge. The compensation implications mean that through ticketing is not wanted by the railway company (or your ticket price is an extra £50 as a result). No through luggage, as it has to go with you via the scanner. So why exactly (apart from being a rail enthusiast) would the average punter not go by plane in a fraction of the time and much cheaper?

 

[DovaModaal]

...on the way back, the sleeper is late in Brussels due to the usual horrendous German timekeeping, so the E* connection has been missed, and there are no spare seats on the next two, so six hours in the lounge. The compensation implications mean that through ticketing is not wanted by the railway company (or your ticket price is an extra £50 as a result).

Eurostar/Thalys have a lot of work as their through-ticketing is not only a problem for the connection with sleeper trains, but also with other classical trains and high speed trains, from all other rail operators.

Paying an extra £50 on each through-ticket, and still waiting six hours in the lounge in case of a disruption, is not necessary. A rail operator like Deutsche Bahn is able to offer massive through-ticketing, even with foreign rail operators, without a waiting time of six hours and an extra €50.
Through-ticketing implies an agreement between the rail operators (or a government imposing it for the sake of all).
Most passengers would be very happy with some available folding seats on the Eurostar so they can move on with their journey. Not all seats on the Eurostar Brussels-Lille are filled, and even so, there are classical trains from the parent companies SNCF and SNCB/NMBS from Brussels to Lille. When the segment Lille-London is full, the stranded passengers could change in Lille to another Eurostar (coming from Paris) with seats available.
A through ticketing agreement could include that a through ticket sleeper train to Brussels - Eurostar can only be sold when there is a planned connection time of 90 minutes.

They could even reserve a small amount of tip-up seats in each Eurostar to give a guarantee and peace of mind to all their potential customers that they will arrive comfortably whatever their onward journey,
Not only for through ticketing, but also for other agreements that benefit the passenger like HOTNAT.
Why not also join the Agreement on Journey Continuation like the major European rail operators?
Some extra tip-up seats don't cost £50 for each passenger in the Eurostar train with a through ticket. Even if only 100 passengers (of 900) have an onward journey with another train, that would yield £5,000 for each train.

Eurostar can win a lot by collaborating on through-ticketing and by joining the Agreement on Journey Continuation.
If international train travel would become more robust by through-ticketing and AJC, Eurostar/Thalys would attract far more passengers.

 

[RT4038]

Eurostar/Thalys have a lot of work as their through-ticketing is not only a problem for the connection with sleeper trains, but also with other classical trains and high speed trains, from all other rail operators.

Paying an extra £50 on each through-ticket, and still waiting six hours in the lounge in case of a disruption, is not necessary. A rail operator like Deutsche Bahn is able to offer massive through-ticketing, even with foreign rail operators, without a waiting time of six hours and an extra €50.
Through-ticketing implies an agreement between the rail operators (or a government imposing it for the sake of all).
Most passengers would be very happy with some available folding seats on the Eurostar so they can move on with their journey. Not all seats on the Eurostar Brussels-Lille are filled, and even so, there are classical trains from the parent companies SNCF and SNCB/NMBS from Brussels to Lille. When the segment Lille-London is full, the stranded passengers could change in Lille to another Eurostar (coming from Paris) with seats available.
A through ticketing agreement could include that a through ticket sleeper train to Brussels - Eurostar can only be sold when there is a planned connection time of 90 minutes.

They could even reserve a small amount of tip-up seats in each Eurostar to give a guarantee and peace of mind to all their potential customers that they will arrive comfortably whatever their onward journey,
Not only for through ticketing, but also for other agreements that benefit the passenger like HOTNAT.
Why not also join the Agreement on Journey Continuation like the major European rail operators?
Some extra tip-up seats don't cost £50 for each passenger in the Eurostar train with a through ticket. Even if only 100 passengers (of 900) have an onward journey with another train, that would yield £5,000 for each train.

Eurostar can win a lot by collaborating on through-ticketing and by joining the Agreement on Journey Continuation.
If international train travel would become more robust by through-ticketing and AJC, Eurostar/Thalys would attract far more passengers.

Please start off with the assumption that the next connecting train may be fully booked, or not able to take all the delayed passengers. Forget about tip up seats and that nonsense. To all intents and purposes it is like an aeroplane - the seating capacity is the seating capacity. Collaborating on through ticketing is all very well (and as I understand it E* do make arrangements where they can) but a missed connection is a missed connection. The current policies with E* mean their trains are booked pretty full, so would likely not be able to accommodate 100 extra passengers. Highly unlikely to be 100 passengers in this scenario anyway - sleeper trains have nothing like 900 capacity, and not that many people would make this inconvenient journey. The scenario of Lille is not a valid one - Paris-London trains do not stop at Lille. (Try telling an already late connecting passenger to London that they can travel on a London train as far as Lille only - that is not a practicable option.)

I don't think through ticketing or not makes much difference to E* / Thalys business - the journey time and the inconvenience and uncertainty of changing is far, far more a barrier to increased long distance travel by train. For the small amount of revenue involved, train companies don't want all this extra work with the possibility of taking people to hotels, providing them with food, compensating them for long delays at connecting points. The low cost airlines don't do it, and neither do they want to.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I suspect that Customs may not be happy with that! And on the way back, the sleeper is late in Brussels due to the usual horrendous German timekeeping, so the E* connection has been missed, and there are no spare seats on the next two, so six hours in the lounge. The compensation implications mean that through ticketing is not wanted by the railway company (or your ticket price is an extra £50 as a result). No through luggage, as it has to go with you via the scanner. So why exactly (apart from being a rail enthusiast) would the average punter not go by plane in a fraction of the time and much cheaper?

Because - I hope - many "average punters" know that we need to stop flying around if we want to maintain an ecosystem which is conducive to our species having a planet which is reasonably comfortable for us. You don't have to be "a rail enthusiast" to realise that, just someone with scientific awareness and a conscience.

 

[zwk500]

Because - I hope - many "average punters" know that we need to stop flying around if we want to maintain an ecosystem which is conducive to our species having a planet which is reasonably comfortable for us. You don't have to be "a rail enthusiast" to realise that, just someone with scientific awareness and a conscience.

You'll be sadly disappointed, if aviation numbers are anything to go by. People generally have 3 priorities when choosing travel modes: Cost, Speed or Convenience, pick 2 of 3. Carbon doesn't really come into the overwhelming majority of travel decisions. If you're really worried about the carbon, stay at home. If your choice of travel modes is 'for the planet' and yet the travel itself is entirely discretionary, it's more than slightly hypocritical.

It's different for work, or to go shopping etc, where you may be able to travel for less carbon than if working remotely/getting home deliveries (e.g. if you cycle). Or if you have a semi-requirement to travel, such as my travel home for christmas this year, which if I did not go would have impacts on the mental and emotional health of several people, as well as losing contact with a valuable support network. In this instance, I was actually looking to fly, because it's less than half the cost of the train (even including connections), but the flights weren't at times I could go so by train it is. Ironically it will be a completely zero-carbon at point of use journey to where I'm staying in the UK initially (bike to Maastricht station, EMUs from Maastricht to Haggerston (changing at Liege, Brussels, St Pancras and Highbury & Islington) and then a short walk, and I may get to my mum's with zero carbon (EMUs from Haggerston to Hassocks, with a walk at the end but may be picked up), but then because of train strikes I'll be driving/driven after that until it's time for me to go back to the NL. I could have used Electric trains for over 50% of my travel (Brighton-London-Sheffield-York-London).

More on topic, a Sleeper train wouldn't be personally too handy, as it's likely to require substantial daytime travel to get to Maastricht afterwards, although if carriages were left at Brussels or Aachen then I might well look at using it.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Slightly off topic, however I was thinking of a way a trial service could be put in place of a uk-eu sleeper with little new infrastructure needed perhaps to setup.

More specifically an Edinburgh - London - Paris Caledonian sleeper, with temporary border facilities at Edinburgh Waverley platform 20 (for example), diverted to st pancras where a second class 92 could be added on the other end to top and tail the sleeper to/from Paris (presumably due to channel tunnel safety rules).

The only major caveat being that mk5s are able to carry passengers through the channel tunnel, I think this would work as Edinburgh does have quite alot of international tourists and the Scottish government would be very keen for this sort of thing.

 

[StephenHunter]

Slightly off topic, however I was thinking of a way a trial service could be put in place of a uk-eu sleeper with little new infrastructure needed perhaps to setup.

More specifically an Edinburgh - London - Paris Caledonian sleeper, with temporary border facilities at Edinburgh Waverley platform 20 (for example), diverted to st pancras where a second class 92 could be added on the other end to top and tail the sleeper to/from Paris (presumably due to channel tunnel safety rules).

The only major caveat being that mk5s are able to carry passengers through the channel tunnel, I think this would work as Edinburgh does have quite alot of international tourists and the Scottish government would be very keen for this sort of thing.

Edinburgh to Paris is one of the things Midnight Trains wants to do.

 

[zwk500]

Slightly off topic, however I was thinking of a way a trial service could be put in place of a uk-eu sleeper with little new infrastructure needed perhaps to setup.

More specifically an Edinburgh - London - Paris Caledonian sleeper, with temporary border facilities at Edinburgh Waverley platform 20 (for example), diverted to st pancras where a second class 92 could be added on the other end to top and tail the sleeper to/from Paris (presumably due to channel tunnel safety rules).

The only major caveat being that mk5s are able to carry passengers through the channel tunnel, I think this would work as Edinburgh does have quite alot of international tourists and the Scottish government would be very keen for this sort of thing.

Waverley doesn't have the platform capacity for that. Border facilities are not like a queuning system, you can't just roll out some fences and have staff direct people. The whole area needs sealing off to international standards and a full police search. It would then need all the passport and luggage sorting equipment setting up. And what happens to the Caledonian service when it's stock is nicked for the cross-channel service?

Given Scotland services come into Euston or King's Cross, the operational faffing about really seems to be of limited value. I'd say that a Plymouth/Cardiff service would be more worth it, attaching at Bristol Temple Meads. However passport checks would still take place at St Pancras - one island would be cordoned off while passengers are directed through to the security zone and then reboarded once through the normal checks. There may even be a route already in place at St P but if not it'd only require a minor rejiggle. Could even do it by using Platform 5 and just sending people round the side of the departure lounge.

 

[RT4038]

Because - I hope - many "average punters" know that we need to stop flying around if we want to maintain an ecosystem which is conducive to our species having a planet which is reasonably comfortable for us. You don't have to be "a rail enthusiast" to realise that, just someone with scientific awareness and a conscience.

Yes, but this is more likely to be achieved by 'average punters' not making the journey at all, or travelling less often but staying away longer, and developing more eco friendly aircraft propulsion systems. There is no harm in making connectional travel by rail easier if it can be done economically, but I suspect this type of journey is unlikely to become a preferred way of travel whilst other much more convenient and reliable alternatives exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Edinburgh to Paris is one of the things Midnight Trains wants to do.

Good luck to them and their balance sheet.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I'd say that a Plymouth/Cardiff service would be more worth it, attaching at Bristol Temple Meads. However passport checks would still take place at St Pancras

St Pancras at what sort of time? Circa 02.00 in either direction I would guestimate, passengers would of course be delighted to leave their cosy sleeping berths in the middle of the night!

 

[zwk500]

St Pancras at what sort of time? Circa 02.00 in either direction I would guestimate, passengers would of course be delighted to leave their cosy sleeping berths in the middle of the night!

23.30 for a 23.55 departure. It's late, but at least you can have dinner on the train. Passport checks in Europe would take place at Brussels or Paris, as the infrastructure is already there. There's a hundred reasons why it won't happen, but turfing people out for a passport shuffle is one of the more resolvable ones.

 

[RT4038]

23.30 for a 23.55 departure. It's late, but at least you can have dinner on the train. Passport checks in Europe would take place at Brussels or Paris, as the infrastructure is already there. There's a hundred reasons why it won't happen, but turfing people out for a passport shuffle is one of the more resolvable ones.

Freshly prepared quality food at cheap prices no doubt, with three dining saloons and a full kitchen car to accommodate all the passengers eating and finishing shortly before arriving at St. Pancras. [Won't get much sleep though, with those full stomachs......].
I think we need to be honest and realise that these services are just not going to be attractive or anyway economic.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

23.30 for a 23.55 departure. It's late, but at least you can have dinner on the train. Passport checks in Europe would take place at Brussels or Paris, as the infrastructure is already there. There's a hundred reasons why it won't happen, but turfing people out for a passport shuffle is one of the more resolvable ones.

Which potentially makes it viable for London to Paris albeit, like those from further west with probably just five hours sleep, or maybe six if it goes the long way round via Lille. On a trip of that length from the South West my personal expectation would be at least eight hours in bed.

What time at St Pancras on the westbound trip?

I think we need to be honest and realise that these services are just not going to be attractive or anyway economic.

I have to agree but it can be great fun to speculate.

Who is going to invest heavily in new stock and facilities for a service with a undetermined market. With the exception of established operators such as NightJet and Trenitalia and a revival in night trains in France, all with new stock in the pipeline, other start ups are relying on stock (admittedly refurbished) well past its natural use by date.

 

[RT4038]

I have to agree but it can be great fun to speculate.

Quite. What might have happened if the Channel Tunnel had opened in 1952 rather than 1992?

 

[zwk500]

Quite. What might have happened if the Channel Tunnel had opened in 1952 rather than 1992?

Perhaps a separate thread, but that's a very juicy question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

What time at St Pancras on the westbound trip?

Time at St Pancras wouldn't matter for inbound traffic, as they'd have done their checks already. I'd be running separate London trains as part of this fantasy as well.

 

[paul1609]

Waverley doesn't have the platform capacity for that. Border facilities are not like a queuning system, you can't just roll out some fences and have staff direct people. The whole area needs sealing off to international standards and a full police search. It would then need all the passport and luggage sorting equipment setting up. And what happens to the Caledonian service when it's stock is nicked for the cross-channel service?

Given Scotland services come into Euston or King's Cross, the operational faffing about really seems to be of limited value. I'd say that a Plymouth/Cardiff service would be more worth it, attaching at Bristol Temple Meads. However passport checks would still take place at St Pancras - one island would be cordoned off while passengers are directed through to the security zone and then reboarded once through the normal checks. There may even be a route already in place at St P but if not it'd only require a minor rejiggle. Could even do it by using Platform 5 and just sending people round the side of the departure lounge.

There is a route but it doesn't have any signalling and and any West Country Service would have to wait until after midnight to follow the last of the 5 min interval North London Line Services from Willesden Junction. The westbound service would need to leave St Pancras round about 4.15 at the latest so really you would have to have HS1 open all the way through its overnight engineering period. Obviously HS1 and the classic UK lines are built to different standards so you'd need Uk sized trains that can all at UIC gauge stations. realistically its not at all practical. you'd be better off reimporting the night star trains from Canada and carrying out the Passport Checks at Ashford International!

 

[zwk500]

There is a route but it doesn't have any signalling and and any West Country Service would have to wait until after midnight to follow the last of the 5 min interval North London Line Services from Willesden Junction.

The 'route' I referred to was for passengers to circulate at St Pancras. But since when as the NLL beyond Willesden Junction been 5 minutes between Overground services? There always used to be regular freight paths through the day that for 1 slot could given over to passenger trains.

The westbound service would need to leave St Pancras round about 4.15 at the latest so really you would have to have HS1 open all the way through its overnight engineering period. Obviously HS1 and the classic UK lines are built to different standards so you'd need Uk sized trains that can all at UIC gauge stations. realistically its not at all practical. you'd be better off reimporting the night star trains from Canada and carrying out the Passport Checks at Ashford International!

I never said it was practical, just that it was more worth it than a Scottish service, given the relative distance between Paddington and St Pancras as compared to King's Cross or Euston. I agree with other comments - the best way to do this is to run a late London-Brussels day train and connect into sleepers there.