Stressed and worried prosecutions

[hel]

Hi,
I'm new here and don't know how this works.

I got charged of an offence committed on a govia thameslink railway service.

I took a train on the 28 of October 2022 too luton which I purchased an half way ticket because I didn't have enough money, it being my first time and I was shaky, I got caught by an inspector and was questioned.
I couldn't even say the truth, now I have been sent a single justice procedure notice, I don't even know how to go about it, I don't have money for a solicitor, I'm also a student, I don't want this to affect me in any way.
Right now I'm depressed and don't know where to start from.
Should I just end it here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi,
I'm new here and don't know how this works.

I got charged of an offence committed on a govia thameslink railway service.

I took a train on the 28 of October 2022 too luton which I purchased an half way ticket because I didn't have enough money, it being my first time and I was shaky, I got caught by an inspector and was questioned.
I couldn't even say the truth, now I have been sent a single justice procedure notice, I don't even know how to go about it, I don't have money for a solicitor, I'm also a student, I don't want this to affect me in any way.
Right now I'm depressed and don't know where to start from.
Should I just end it here.

Firstly, we need the following details:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

It might also be helpful to elaborate on what you mean by "I couldn't even say the truth" - what did you say, when questioned?

GTR don't usually move to prosecute straight away - have you had any other correspondence from them?

 

[island]

Hi,
I'm new here

Welcome to the forum.

and don't know how this works.

we can help you with that. When replying, please use the same question numbers I am using below (1, 2 3 etc.) and avoid adding in extraneous information.

I got charged of an offence committed on a govia thameslink railway service.

I took a train on the 28 of October 2022 too luton which I purchased an half way ticket

Q1 Do you mean a ticket for half of your journey, or a child or "half-fare" ticket?

because I didn't have enough money, it being my first time and I was shaky, I got caught by an inspector and was questioned.

Q2 Where were you caught? Luton?
Q3 Did you receive any papers from the inspector when you were caught, or anything through the post before the court letter?

I couldn't even say the truth,

Q4 What did you say that was not the truth?

now I have been sent a single justice procedure notice

Q5 What offence does the SJPN say you are charged with? Usually this is something like "did enter a railway vehicle without having with you a valid ticket, contrary to section 18 (1) of the Railway Byelaws..." or "did travel on the railway without previously paying your fare with intent to avoid payment thereof". Please either upload a photo of the page of the SJPN with this detail, or copy word for word the detailed offence. Do not paraphrase.

I don't even know how to go about it,

You'll need to respond to the SJPN but exactly what to do will depend on the answers to the questions.

I don't have money for a solicitor

You won't need a solicitor.

, I'm also a student, I don't want this to affect me in any way.

Unfortunately we're past the possibility that it won't affect you in any way. You will almost certainly need to pay some money to bring an end to this matter.

Right now I'm depressed and don't know where to start from.
Should I just end it here.

Please don't "end it here", you are charged with a minor criminal offence and should not take things out of proportion. If you are at all considering taking drastic action, please contact the Samaritans on 116123. This is free from any phone and won't appear on the phone bill.

 

[some bloke]

Hello - I'd suggest contacting your student union today or tomorrow. They may offer some free legal advice, advice on how a conviction would or would not be likely to affect any jobs (this is a relatively minor matter), and personal advice.

University counselling/welfare services (as distinct from student union services) might also be useful - if you are concerned that they would tell administrators about the criminal case, you can ask them about that beforehand.

There are some courses such as medicine which require students to let the university know when they are charged. If that's the case you should have been told of that requirement/agreed to that before you started the course, and it should be on the website of the department/medical school. The fact that these courses need people to tell them doesn't mean there will be any serious consequences. If you do have to tell them, that isn't necessarily a bad thing because you might find a tutor is more sympathetic than you expect and it would be off your chest. The important thing would be to tell the truth.

If you can persuade the company to agree a settlement in time, you won't need to respond to the notice.

It's easier for people to advise if you detail what you've already said and/or written to the inspector and the company, because there may be things you can make clearer in your next communication. The other details people have asked for above may also help resolve this.

 

[hel]

Firstly, we need the following details:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

It might also be helpful to elaborate on what you mean by "I couldn't even say the truth" - what did you say, when questioned?

GTR don't usually move to prosecute straight away - have you had any other correspondence from them?

I started my journey from Plumstead station, changed trains from London Bridge and finished at Luton station.
I bought an online ticket, adding Luton Airport parkway to Luton because the fare was cheaper and what I could afford at that time.
I got caught by the railway staff because I was shaky, I was asked to present my ticket which I did, but because I purchased it few minutes before getting to my destination. that was when I started being questioned. That was when I lied about taking a train from St Albans City, they kept on questioning me but I couldn't talk further.
They then gave me a govia thameslink railway witness statement and said I should be expecting a letter by post, too also state what happened.

Few Weeks after I got a letter which stated Notice of intention to prosecute. I plead guilty and was honest.

The second letter now is the single justice procedure notice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum.

we can help you with that. When replying, please use the same question numbers I am using below (1, 2 3 etc.) and avoid adding in extraneous information.

Q1 Do you mean a ticket for half of your journey, or a child or "half-fare" ticket?

Q2 Where were you caught? Luton?
Q3 Did you receive any papers from the inspector when you were caught, or anything through the post before the court letter?

Q4 What did you say that was not the truth?

Q5 What offence does the SJPN say you are charged with? Usually this is something like "did enter a railway vehicle without having with you a valid ticket, contrary to section 18 (1) of the Railway Byelaws..." or "did travel on the railway without previously paying your fare with intent to avoid payment thereof". Please either upload a photo of the page of the SJPN with this detail, or copy word for word the detailed offence. Do not paraphrase.

You'll need to respond to the SJPN but exactly what to do will depend on the answers to the questions.

You won't need a solicitor.

Unfortunately we're past the possibility that it won't affect you in any way. You will almost certainly need to pay some money to bring an end to this matter.

Please don't "end it here", you are charged with a minor criminal offence and should not take things out of proportion. If you are at all considering taking drastic action, please contact the Samaritans on 116123. This is free from any phone and won't appear on the phone bill.

Hi,
1)Yes I meant a ticket for half of my journey.
2)I was caught in luton.
3)I received a paper stating "govia thameslink railway witness statement".
4) I said I took the train from St Albans City and also refused to say where started my journey.
5) attached a file of what was said

I have literally worked a little, I can pay some money to bring an end to the matter. I just don't want to have a criminal record which will affect me applying for jobs.

I should have just stayed back in London and not come to Luton for my appointment knowing fully well I don't have enough money.

I'm scared to death and don't even know what too do, I dare not add anymore pressure to my parents.

What if the Samaritans ain't being friendly, what if...

I can't even go to school cause I'm on break now.

I'm not thinking properly, OMG!!

 

[island]

I think GTR have made a number of mistakes on the paperwork here.

Did you have a ticket from Luton Airport Parkway to Luton valid on 28 October 2022? Did you present this ticket when asked to do so?

 

[hel]

Hello - I'd suggest contacting your student union today or tomorrow. They may offer some free legal advice, advice on how a conviction would or would not be likely to affect any jobs (this is a relatively minor matter), and personal advice.

University counselling/welfare services (as distinct from student union services) might also be useful - if you are concerned that they would tell administrators about the criminal case, you can ask them about that beforehand.

There are some courses such as medicine which require students to let the university know when they are charged. If that's the case you should have been told of that requirement/agreed to that before you started the course, and it should be on the website of the department/medical school. The fact that these courses need people to tell them doesn't mean there will be any serious consequences. If you do have to tell them, that isn't necessarily a bad thing because you might find a tutor is more sympathetic than you expect and it would be off your chest. The important thing would be to tell the truth.

If you can persuade the company to agree a settlement in time, you won't need to respond to the notice.

It's easier for people to advise if you detail what you've already said and/or written to the inspector and the company, because there may be things you can make clearer in your next communication. The other details people have asked for above may also help resolve this.

I'm presently on break, I did try too call student union but there was no response from them.
It takes long for them to respond to emails too.
I'm just out of ideas and scared to my bones.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,
I'm new here and don't know how this works.

I got charged of an offence committed on a govia thameslink railway service.

I took a train on the 28 of October 2022 too luton which I purchased an half way ticket because I didn't have enough money, it being my first time and I was shaky, I got caught by an inspector and was questioned.
I couldn't even say the truth, now I have been sent a single justice procedure notice, I don't even know how to go about it, I don't have money for a solicitor, I'm also a student, I don't want this to affect me in any way.
Right now I'm depressed and don't know where to start from.
Should I just end it here.

Hi - welcome - post a bit more info as requested by others (be truthful, protect your anonymity) and experienced people will give you a step by step guide on how to minimise this so it does not cause you major problems going forward. Plenty of help here for you - including how you should best reply. Try not to worry too much.

 

[hel]

I think GTR have made a number of mistakes on the paperwork here.

Did you have a ticket from Luton Airport Parkway to Luton valid on 28 October 2022? Did you present this ticket when asked to do so?

Yes I did present the ticket, but because I purchased the ticket few minutes before landing that was why I was being questioned.

 

[some bloke]

I think GTR have made a number of mistakes on the paperwork here.

They've jumbled up byelaws 18(1) and 18(2).

Railway byelaws

Explains what the railway byelaws are, why they have been made and how they can be enforced and interpreted.

www.gov.uk

However, the magistrate might take the view that the meaning is clear enough and the passenger is clearly guilty under the actual byelaw 18(1). It isn't in the interests of justice for people to be found innocent where they are clearly guilty and there is a mistake which doesn't affect the question of guilt.

Also, if GTR find out about the mistake because either a) the passenger tells them or b) the passenger tells the court and the magistrate refers the case for a full hearing, at least theoretically GTR could substitute the more serious offence of intent to avoid a fare.

I took a train on the 28 of October 2022 too luton which I purchased an half way ticket

I started my journey from Plumstead station, changed trains from London Bridge and finished at Luton station.
I bought an online ticket, adding Luton Airport parkway to Luton

So just to be clear, the only ticket you had was from the airport, so that you are guilty as charged (no valid ticket to travel from Plumstead, when you boarded)?

If you are fined by the magistrate, then under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, the conviction is spent after a year (if you are over 18 at the time of conviction). This means that for most purposes such as when asked by most employers and insurance companies you don't have to tell them after that time.

But you can write again to GTR, and then keep phoning using the number on the FAQ page you have. After providing the information requested above, you can draft a reply and post it here for comment.

 

[hel]

Hi - welcome - post a bit more info as requested by others (be truthful, protect your anonymity) and experienced people will give you a step by step guide on how to minimise this so it does not cause you major problems going forward. Plenty of help here for you - including how you should best reply. Try not to worry too much.

Hi.
Thank you
I just posted some and also attached some files.

 

[some bloke]

It isn't in the interests of justice for people to be found innocent where they are clearly guilty and there is a mistake which doesn't affect the question of guilt.

Of course there might be cases where the person can reasonably be said to have been misled by the charge sheet into a wrong plea, or otherwise dealt with the case under a misleading impression. But the idea that that applies in this case would need argument.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi.
Thank you
I just posted some and also attached some files.

Thanks - there's only 1 reply showing yet (this may be due to you having just joined the forum and they need to get approved - don't worry about that, it will get resolved fairly quickly by the mods I think)

I can see you are being asked lots of different questions - this is so people can give you the best help for your circumstances - might be worth pausing, waiting for all the questions to come in - then posting one clear reply to all the things people need you to explain, then the advice on your best next steps will come from forum members.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

I can only see the front page. Is there something else?

maybe stuff still awaiting approval by mods from the OP?

 

[hel]

They've jumbled up byelaws 18(1) and 18(2).

Railway byelaws

Explains what the railway byelaws are, why they have been made and how they can be enforced and interpreted.

www.gov.uk

However, the magistrate might take the view that the meaning is clear enough and the passenger is clearly guilty under the actual byelaw 18(1). It isn't in the interests of justice for people to be found innocent where they are clearly guilty and there is a mistake which doesn't affect the question of guilt.

Also, if GTR find out about the mistake because either a) the passenger tells them or b) the passenger tells the court and the magistrate refers the case for a full hearing, at least theoretically GTR could substitute the more serious offence of intent to avoid a fare.



So just to be clear, the only ticket you had was from the airport, so that you are guilty as charged (no valid ticket to travel from Plumstead, when you boarded)?

If you are fined by the magistrate, then under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, the conviction is spent after a year (if you are over 18 at the time of conviction). This means that for most purposes such as when asked by most employers and insurance companies you don't have to tell them after that time.

But you can write again to GTR, and then keep phoning using the number on the FAQ page you have. After providing the information requested above, you can draft a reply and post it here for comment.

Yes that was the only ticket I had from the airport. And I also pleaded guilty before getting this letter.
I'm 21 years of age.

 

[hel]

Thanks - there's only 1 reply showing yet (this may be due to you having just joined the forum and they need to get approved - don't worry about that, it will get resolved fairly quickly by the mods I think)

I can see you are being asked lots of different questions - this is so people can give you the best help for your circumstances - might be worth pausing, waiting for all the questions to come in - then posting one clear reply to all the things people need you to explain, then the advice on your best next steps will come from forum members.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==


maybe stuff still awaiting approval by mods from the OP?

Oh I get it now.
I will wait a little then.

moderator note: "missing" posts restored.

 

[Haywain]

I purchased an half way ticket

Please don't delude yourself that you paid for half of the journey. You paid for much less than that - just 1 mile out of 41. Having said that, you also need to be aware that a minor criminal conviction of this nature is not going to have a major impact on your life and your ability to get jobs. People make bad decisions in life and we live in a society that is much more forgiving than you believe right now. And I think you should tell your parents because while they might be angry with you initially, they will help you get through this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

What if the Samaritans ain't being friendly, what if...

Please, please, don't imagine that the Samaritans will be in any way judgemental. You need to talk to someone rather than bottle this up, and they will listen.

 

[some bloke]

a criminal record which will affect me applying for jobs.

I hope you don't mind me asking: What's the basis for that claim? Did you read the part above about "spent" convictions?

The reason convictions get "spent" is that this society recognises people commit offences which should be overlooked in many circumstances after a period.

Are you doing medicine or another course which is stricter about these things? Even then, there's far more to fitness to practise than whether someone has done something minor that's dishonest (which far more people have done than get convicted!).

Have a look at these websites and call the organisations if the information isn't enough:

Criminal Record Support

Nacro Criminal Record Support Service offers people criminal record advice, information and guidance for individuals and employers. See more.

www.nacro.org.uk

The paperwork gives a link to Unlock:

Unlock

For people with criminal records.

unlock.org.uk

A byelaw conviction is "non-recordable" so in one sense it doesn't go on a "criminal record" in that it shouldn't appear on the "Police National Computer" database.

Yes that was the only ticket I had from the airport.

Thank you.

As you can see from the FAQ in the paperwork, and from the link above to the byelaws, an offence under byelaw 18(1) is less serious than what you're guilty of (ie intending to pay less rather than just not having a valid ticket when you boarded).

I will wait a little then.

In addition to the paperwork, we still need to know what you've already told the inspector and GTR - including what you said at the time you told them you were guilty - and what you meant by not telling the truth.

These four things (in some cases overlapping) would be useful:

What happened in any encounter with railway staff

(including any other potentially relevant detail which we might not think to ask about)

what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

what you mean by "I couldn't even say the truth" - what did you say, when questioned?

what you've already said and/or written to the inspector and the company, because there may be things you can make clearer in your next communication.

The paperwork has further errors in talking about "summons", "hearing" and "section 12", none of which are relevant to a single justice procedure. Here again, the idea that these errors necessarily make a material difference would need argument.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

What if the Samaritans ain't being friendly, what if...

You don't need to worry about this. See https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-c...-difficult-time/what-expect-when-you-talk-us/ which should reassure you that the Samaritans are there to listen - they won't tell you off!

 

[some bloke]

The Samaritans are staffed by (volunteers) flawed humans like everywhere else. If you call them and you feel the person isn't being friendly (which may be unlikely), or you don't feel you are communicating properly, you can just end the call (giving appropriate consideration to the fact that they might think you are ending the call because you are going to do something harmful) and call again! If by chance the same person answers, do the same again while again giving some consideration to their feelings. Give your needs reasonable priority!

 

[hel]

I just attach a file of my questioning with the railway staff

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

I hope you don't mind me asking: What's the basis for that claim? Did you read the part above about "spent" convictions?

The reason convictions get "spent" is that this society recognises people commit offences which should be overlooked in many circumstances after a period.

Are you doing medicine or another course which is stricter about these things? Even then, there's far more to fitness to practise than whether someone has done something minor that's dishonest (which far more people have done than get convicted!).

Have a look at these websites and call the organisations if the information isn't enough:

Criminal Record Support

Nacro Criminal Record Support Service offers people criminal record advice, information and guidance for individuals and employers. See more.

www.nacro.org.uk

The paperwork gives a link to Unlock:

Unlock

For people with criminal records.

unlock.org.uk

A byelaw conviction is "non-recordable" so in one sense it doesn't go on a "criminal record" in that it shouldn't appear on the "Police National Computer" database.



Thank you.

As you can see from the FAQ in the paperwork, and from the link above to the byelaws, an offence under byelaw 18(1) is less serious than what you're guilty of (ie intending to pay less rather than just not having a valid ticket when you boarded).



In addition to the paperwork, we still need to know what you've already told the inspector and GTR - including what you said at the time you told them you were guilty - and what you meant by not telling the truth.

These four things (in some cases overlapping) would be useful:


(including any other potentially relevant detail which we might not think to ask about)





The paperwork has further errors in talking about "summons", "hearing" and "section 12", none of which are relevant to a single justice procedure. Here again, the idea that these errors necessarily make a material difference would need argument.

And here is what I said to GTR, saying I was guilty.
There might be some errors in the file attached, Pardon me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

You don't need to worry about this. See https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-c...-difficult-time/what-expect-when-you-talk-us/ which should reassure you that the Samaritans are there to listen - they won't tell you off!

Ok, I will try calling.
Thank you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

The Samaritans are staffed by (volunteers) flawed humans like everywhere else. If you call them and you feel the person isn't being friendly (which may be unlikely), or you don't feel you are communicating properly, you can just end the call (giving appropriate consideration to the fact that they might think you are ending the call because you are going to do something harmful) and call again! If by chance the same person answers, do the same again while again giving some consideration to their feelings. Give your needs reasonable priority!

Ok will do just that
Thank you.
I just hope I survive this night, with my anxiety.

 

[hel]

Hi,
I'm new here and don't know how this works.

I got charged of an offence committed on a govia thameslink railway service.

I took a train on the 28 of October 2022 too luton which I purchased an half way ticket because I didn't have enough money, it being my first time and I was shaky, I got caught by an inspector and was questioned.
I couldn't even say the truth, now I have been sent a single justice procedure notice, I don't even know how to go about it, I don't have money for a solicitor, I'm also a student, I don't want this to affect me in any way.
Right now I'm depressed and don't know where to start from.
Should I just end it here.

And also I forgot to add, I had an oyster card with me, which I tried using at Plumstead station but didn't go through probably because it was cancelled.
It's a (pay as you go oyster card)

 

[Haywain]

And here is what I said to GTR, saying I was guilty.
There might be some errors in the file attached, Pardon me.

Have you sent the handwritten letter to GTR?

 

[hel]

Yes I attach the handwritten Letter with the letter they sent to me ( Notice of intention to prosecute)

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd welcome the wisdom of the forum on this one - but it occurs to me the best option would be for @hel to keep making efforts to pursue an out of court settlement payment offer in the hope Thameslink will withdraw the court case. What do people think?

The handwritten letter is a good start but I'm tempted to suggest writing again, stressing your apology and willingness and desire to settle the matter without court action, making it clear you have learned your lesson. I would be typing it and sending it / e-mailing it in the style of a formal letter (easy for them to read) - the OP can draft that up and post here for comment.

Is there any reason not to go back to them and request this.

Inevitably the OP will have to be prepared to pay the settlement, if offered, but that is likely to be lower than the court penalty anyway - and comes without the court conviction.

Or am I missing something here? Please correct me if so.

Also I would say talk this through with family and friends you trust - like most people they will not realise that avoiding paying a train fare could end up in this situation, so will I am sure by sympathetic and want to help.

 

[Haywain]

I'd welcome the wisdom of the forum on this one - but it occurs to me the best option would be for @hel to keep making efforts to pursue an out of court settlement payment offer in the hope Thameslink will withdraw the court case. What do people think?

I absolutely agree with this. I would hope that a typed and easy to read letter containing the 'standard form of words' would elicit a suitable response. And a request for around £135.00.

 

[hel]

I'd welcome the wisdom of the forum on this one - but it occurs to me the best option would be for @hel to keep making efforts to pursue an out of court settlement payment offer in the hope Thameslink will withdraw the court case. What do people think?

The handwritten letter is a good start but I'm tempted to suggest writing again, stressing your apology and willingness and desire to settle the matter without court action, making it clear you have learned your lesson. I would be typing it and sending it / e-mailing it in the style of a formal letter (easy for them to read) - the OP can draft that up and post here for comment.

Is there any reason not to go back to them and request this.

Inevitably the OP will have to be prepared to pay the settlement, if offered, but that is likely to be lower than the court penalty anyway - and comes without the court conviction.

Or am I missing something here? Please correct me if so.

Also I would say talk this through with family and friends you trust - like most people they will not realise that avoiding paying a train fare could end up in this situation, so will I am sure by sympathetic and want to help.

Hi,
So should I call them also too?
Or go to there office or something?

I Don't know what else too do ):
I spoke to few friends I trust, they haven't responded to me since yesterday.
I can't tell my mum because she is hypertensive and not here with me at the same time.

 

[some bloke]

You can post a draft on here, then send it after input from members; then keep phoning if they don't agree a settlement.

Meanwhile, try to make sure that any thoughts you have about possible consequences of conviction are realistic, by looking at Nacro and Unlock websites and/or calling (they prefer it if people try to find answers before calling). That is both to reduce anxiety and to prepare yourself for the possibility that GTR doesn't agree a settlement. Hopefully they will.

And please do call the Samaritans if you are wondering whether to.

 

[skyhigh]

They've jumbled up byelaws 18(1) and 18(2).

Looking at the paperwork the OP has uploaded, it reads to me as if based on their evidence a charge of 18(1) is correct. The statement from the inspector says the OP bought the ticket in front of them, and claimed the barriers at St Albans were open so they didn't buy a ticket there.

 

[Haywain]

So should I call them also too?
Or go to there office or something?

No and no.

 

[30907]

So should I call them also too?

Possibly

Or go to there office or something?

Not worth it IMO

I spoke to few friends I trust, they haven't responded to me since yesterday.

Worth calling them again perhaps?