Last HST in normal revenue service.

[mike57]

Following on from @Chester1 thread about at risk fleets, I wonder when and where the last HST in normal revenue service will run. To clarify, a normal timetabled service, carrying pssengers, but maybe not the diagrammed stock.

Will they make 50 years? I understand they are a bit like 'Triggers broom' so not every bit is coming up to 50 years old.

Personally I will be sad to see them go, they are still far more comfortable than a lot of stuff that has replaced them, but I realise that everything reaches the end of it life and that day is coming for HSTs

They did more to reverse the decline in rail usage than any other BR development in my opinion, so by any measure they were successful.

I also remember in the early days there were reliability problems, but they were engineered out and they became the backbone of inter city services across a large part of the network.

 

[JonathanH]

GWR should dispense with its final HSTs at the December 2023 timetable change.

It hasn't been announced but lots of speculation that CrossCountry will have to give up its HSTs this year as well in the light of funding cuts and the GWR decision.

Therefore likely to be Scotland where the last HSTs run, possibly in 2024 if they take on 222s from EMR, as they become displaced by 810s.

While the latter HSTs have a guarantee on their lease, that doesn't mean they have to be used if the operational and maintenance costs are seen to be too high.

If 222s don't go to Scotland, the HSTs will continue, perhaps until 2028, so will see 50 years in some cases.

 

[hexagon789]

ScotRail until 2030 (as per the fleet's leasing agreement) seems the most feasible as the last in ordinary scheduled service.

 

[Trainbike46]

While the latter HSTs have a guarantee on their lease, that doesn't mean they have to be used if the operational and maintenance costs are seen to be too high.

If 222s don't go to Scotland, the HSTs will continue, perhaps until 2028, so will see 50 years in some cases.

While this is true, the chance that leasing 222s (or a different replacement fleet) while also still paying the leasing charges for the HSTs is cheaper than using the HSTs is very small, so I don't see the HSTs being replaced before the late 2020s, and then they will be replaced by the new electric IC units

 

[Bletchleyite]

While this is true, the chance that leasing 222s (or a different replacement fleet) while also still paying the leasing charges for the HSTs is cheaper than using the HSTs is very small, so I don't see the HSTs being replaced before the late 2020s, and then they will be replaced by the new electric IC units

It may of course be possible for ScotRail to buy themselves out of the HST leases at less than the full cost of continuing to lease them.

 

[Trainbike46]

It may of course be possible for ScotRail to buy themselves out of the HST leases at less than the full cost of continuing to lease them.

True, but regardless it is likely to be expensive, hence making it less likely that discontinuing HSTs early will be cheaper

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, but regardless it is likely to be expensive, hence making it less likely that discontinuing HSTs early will be cheaper

True, I suspect the reason to discontinue won't be cost but rather safety, particularly if the Unions blacklist them as is rumoured.

 

[Chester1]

ScotRail until 2030 (as per the fleet's leasing agreement) seems the most feasible as the last in ordinary scheduled service.

I agree. I can't see ASLEF succeeding in blacklisting a fleet of 26 intercity trains. There isn't a compromise available due to age of units. Its use them or scrap them with 7-8 years left on lease. The cost gives the Scottish Government a huge incentive to play hardball. It will be a bad look once there are no HSTs are running in England and Wales but they have dug a big whole.

It was a poor decision to lease them and its been one problem after another. 125mph units are OTT and 5 coach Meridians have fewer seats. Scotrail should have ordered 5 coach 755s. 100mph top speed would be fine and the diesel power packs could have been removed in 2030s. Even end door CAF DMUs would have been better in the long term. HSTs were excellent but they are past it.

 

[JonathanH]

Scotrail should have ordered 5 coach 755s.

What was the timing of the HST decision and 755s being ordered for Greater Anglia? I get that Abellio were the operator in both cases but was it Transport Scotland who actually bid the HSTs.

755s don't have the feel of long distance trains for me, they are effective and well appointed units for secondary routes but not what I feel Scotland was looking for under their specification.

Anyway, it hasn't happened and for the moment, the end date of HSTs is what is being considered with one available, but not perfect, replacement that could hasten their demise, and later plans for something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the timing of the HST decision and 755s being ordered for Greater Anglia? I get that Abellio were the operator in both cases but was it Transport Scotland who actually bid the HSTs.

There is a suitable fleet out there which does meet their spec, is the right length and could be repurposed, and its operator is barely using it and has a surplus of other units it can use (and is using) instead, and those units aren't really suitable for anywhere else...can anyone think what it is?

Bonus clue: the other ones that have been built find themselves north of the border daily too!


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==

755s don't have the feel of long distance trains for me, they are effective and well appointed units for secondary routes but not what I feel Scotland was looking for under their specification.

The nicest modern long distance train I have ever used is the PKP version of the FLIRT so it can be done, it's all down to the interior.

I like the 755 a lot myself, but we do need to remember when critiquing it as an InterCity train is that it's on a route that is borderline as to whether it's even InterCity or not, so really it's just a slightly posher Class 350 or Electrostar.

 

[JonathanH]

can anyone think what it is?

Yes, but there are only 13 of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but there are only 13 of them.

I'll be honest, I was surprised ScotRail have 26 HST sets!

Though from this thread:

ScotRail HST Diagrams

is there a list of scotrail hst diagrams anywhere? I had a look on the 125 website but the latest version they have is december 2020? Thanks

www.railforums.co.uk

...there only seem to be 18 diagrams for a full service (only 9 in the temporary timetable), so there's potential to reduce a bit and use other things, e.g. ex-Welsh 158s, to fill the gap.

 

[43096]

I'll be honest, I was surprised ScotRail have 26 HST sets!

25 sets after HA22 was written off at Carmont.

 

[DanNCL]

In revenue service ScotRail, almost certainly the last working will terminate either at Edinburgh or Inverness. I can see the NMT lasting longer.

ScotRail have several options to remove their HSTs, but given the lease guarantee on the HSTs until 2030 are unlikely to go for any of them. Options include 221s, 222s, 175s, 158s, potentially in a few years time 185s, and of course there's always the new build option - Stadler, Alstom, Siemens and CAF all have suitable UK products for the job.

While the latter HSTs have a guarantee on their lease, that doesn't mean they have to be used if the operational and maintenance costs are seen to be too high.

ScotRail isn't subject to DFT restrictions (apart from the cross border trips to Carlisle which HSTs don't operate) so is much less likely to have that imposed on them than GWR, XC or any other English TOC.

I get that Abellio were the operator in both cases but was it Transport Scotland who actually bid the HSTs.

Abellio bid the HSTs. If I recall correctly the losing bid from First offered refurbished 170s instead.

The nicest modern long distance train I have ever used is the PKP version of the FLIRT so it can be done, it's all down to the interior.

I like the 755 a lot myself, but we do need to remember when critiquing it as an InterCity train is that it's on a route that is borderline as to whether it's even InterCity or not, so really it's just a slightly posher Class 350 or Electrostar.

Indeed. Just about any train can be made to feel like a quality intercity train with the correct interior.

 

[hexagon789]

I'll be honest, I was surprised ScotRail have 26 HST sets!

25, see Carmont.

21 are available for traffic, the others are at Doncaster or stored.

...there only seem to be 18 diagrams for a full service (only 9 in the temporary timetable), so there's potential to reduce a bit and use other things, e.g. ex-Welsh 158s, to fill the gap.

15 diagrams Mon-Sat, 13 Sundays.

Abellio bid the HSTs. If I recall correctly the losing bid from First offered refurbished 170s instead.

Correct, including extending sets to 4-car by remarshalling the fleet, upgrading First Class provision, increasing cycle and luggage space and improving the catering offering.

 

[Chester1]

What was the timing of the HST decision and 755s being ordered for Greater Anglia? I get that Abellio were the operator in both cases but was it Transport Scotland who actually bid the HSTs.

755s don't have the feel of long distance trains for me, they are effective and well appointed units for secondary routes but not what I feel Scotland was looking for under their specification.

Anyway, it hasn't happened and for the moment, the end date of HSTs is what is being considered with one available, but not perfect, replacement that could hasten their demise, and later plans for something else.

Something that doesn't "have the feel of long distance trains" would have been better than units that have high operating costs, low reliability and that the drivers union wants blacklisted.

In revenue service ScotRail, almost certainly the last working will terminate either at Edinburgh or Inverness. I can see the NMT lasting longer.

ScotRail have several options to remove their HSTs, but given the lease guarantee on the HSTs until 2030 are unlikely to go for any of them. Options include 221s, 222s, 175s, 158s, potentially in a few years time 185s, and of course there's always the new build option - Stadler, Alstom, Siemens and CAF all have suitable UK products for the job.


ScotRail isn't subject to DFT restrictions (apart from the cross border trips to Carlisle which HSTs don't operate) so is much less likely to have that imposed on them than GWR, XC or any other English TOC.


Abellio bid the HSTs. If I recall correctly the losing bid from First offered refurbished 170s instead.



Indeed. Just about any train can be made to feel like a quality intercity train with the correct interior.

ScotRail would be in a much better position if Abellio had bid with refurbished 170s too.

Your last point is true apart from extreme cases. TPE 350s recieved a lot of criticism from a section of enthusiasts with "end door snobbery". They were well suited for WCML services, providing an increase in capacity and quality. The seating was fine for long distance journeys. I prefer 397s but 350s still did the job well.

ScotRail doesn't have DfT restrictions but unless the Scottish Government wants to cut spending elsewhere or increase taxes then ScotRail will face a financial squeeze. It will be interesting to see how the HSTs are coping in the late 2020s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Your last point is true apart from extreme cases. TPE 350s recieved a lot of criticism from a section of enthusiasts with "end door snobbery". They were well suited for WCML services, providing an increase in capacity and quality. The seating was fine for long distance journeys. I prefer 397s but 350s still did the job well.

TransPennine Express felt very much like the budget alternative to Virgin Trains between Wigan and Glasgow/Edinburgh while Class 350s (complete with TOC neutral blue interior) operated the service. It doesn’t help that they used the same trains as what London Northwestern Railway had, who were Virgin Trains’s budget alternative on the lower half of the network.

The 4x20m trains were also significantly shorter than the 9/10/11x 23m formations used by Virgin, catering was extremely limited, speeds were reduced and First Class seating provision was woefully limited. The Class 397 has made the TransPennine service seem more like an Intercity competitor to Avanti West Coast, rather than the budget alternative the 350s made it appear like.

 

[Chester1]

TransPennine Express felt very much like the budget alternative to Virgin Trains between Wigan and Glasgow/Edinburgh while Class 350s (complete with TOC neutral blue interior) operated the service. It doesn’t help that they used the same trains as what London Northwestern Railway had, who were Virgin Trains’s budget alternative on the lower half of the network.

The 4x20m trains were also significantly shorter than the 9/10/11x 23m formations used by Virgin, catering was extremely limited, speeds were reduced and First Class seating provision was woefully limited. The Class 397 has made the TransPennine service seem more like an Intercity competitor to Avanti West Coast, rather than the budget alternative the 350s made it appear like.

350s ran at same speed as the 397s currently do (110mph). 350s are worse than 390s and 397s but they did the job. ScotRail didn't have sufficient budget to provide a reliable "proper" intercity service, choose to use extremely old trains and thats why its had so many problems. The average passenger would have been better served by newer trains with a lower quality interior that entered service much faster and that are more reliable. Its too late now and ScotRail will have to do the best it can until 2030.

 

[hexagon789]

TransPennine Express felt very much like the budget alternative to Virgin Trains between Wigan and Glasgow/Edinburgh while Class 350s (complete with TOC neutral blue interior) operated the service. It doesn’t help that they used the same trains as what London Northwestern Railway had, who were Virgin Trains’s budget alternative on the lower half of the network.

The 4x20m trains were also significantly shorter than the 9/10/11x 23m formations used by Virgin, catering was extremely limited, speeds were reduced and First Class seating provision was woefully limited. The Class 397 has made the TransPennine service seem more like an Intercity competitor to Avanti West Coast, rather than the budget alternative the 350s made it appear like.

The TPE 350s did have a better interior though with 2+1 First and also three toilets vs two, more in-keeping with a longer-distance service. Though I will agree, they were not the ideal train for the job, but they were available and filled a purpose for a time.

The 350s were an upgrade over the 185s, both in speed and capacity terms at the very least.

The 397s are of course much, much better still.

Before TPE took over the Scotland-Manchester workings, Virgin used 221s on these services IIRC.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 350s were an upgrade over the 185s, both in speed and capacity terms at the very least.

Definitely not in terms of interior after the 185s got a comprehensive refurbishment and the 350s remained with a very very dull TOC neutral interior.

Before TPE took over the Scotland-Manchester workings, Virgin used 221s on these services IIRC.

221s are Intercity trains. 350s are definitely not. We’re getting away from HSTs here though

 

[hexagon789]

Definitely not in terms of interior after the 185s got a comprehensive refurbishment and the 350s remained with a very very dull TOC neutral interior.

Personally I still think the 350s were still better suited to the route than the 185s. I think the capacity, and extra toilet are more important than colour schemes.

Yes it was dull, but it didn't exactly effect their ability to provide a service.

Again though, not the ideal long-term solution and now thankfully replaced by 397s which are perhaps 95% perfect. (My one gripe is the tendency for the bogies to unsettle going over S&T and never quite stop 'fluttering' afterwards until slowing down.)

221s are Intercity trains. 350s are definitely not. We’re getting away from HSTs here though

True, better stop now or I'll be getting some red letter PMs tonight...

 

[Chester1]

Definitely not in terms of interior after the 185s got a comprehensive refurbishment and the 350s remained with a very very dull TOC neutral interior.


221s are Intercity trains. 350s are definitely not. We’re getting away from HSTs here though

What is more important to you, the interior of a train or reliability? If 397s had arrived two years late and permanently been very unreliable I would have prefered to keep 350s. HSTs are likely to get less reliable as they exceed half a century in service. If the budget couldn't stretch to new or relatively young cascaded intercity units then they should have accepted refurbished 170s as an interim measure. Like the 350s they would have been an improvement on what they replaced and they could have been cascaded if or when funds for "proper" intercity stock became available. HSTs probably scored more points on the franchise tender but failed a common sense test. I like HSTs but having them in regular service until 2030s wasn't the best idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Definitely not in terms of interior after the 185s got a comprehensive refurbishment and the 350s remained with a very very dull TOC neutral interior.

The 350s also had a far tighter seat pitch in the middle sections and far more airline seats and fewer tables, being more designed for their intended future on the south WCML.

 

[Mikey C]

From a passenger point of view, the more relevant question might be when the last Mk 3 carriages will run in normal service, I assume the only non HST Mk3s left are the Chiltern loco sets and the GWR sleepers?

 

[hexagon789]

From a passenger point of view, the more relevant question might be when the last Mk 3 carriages will run in normal service, I assume the only non HST Mk3s left are the Chiltern loco sets and the GWR sleepers?

Some of XC's HST trailers are actually LHCS Mk3B's with Alliance couplers and an ETS inverter fitted.

 

[43096]

Some of XC's HST trailers are actually LHCS Mk3B's with Alliance couplers and an ETS inverter fitted.

They were converted from LHCS Mk 3A vehicles and the major electrical modification is removing the motor-alternator. All Mark 3s are based on 415V three phase electricals, for LHCS the motor-alternator generates the three-phase supply, on an HST it comes directly from the power car auxiliary alternator. So an HST trailer is consequently less complicated (and therefore more reliable) than the LHCS equivalent.

 

[hexagon789]

They were converted from LHCS Mk 3A vehicles and the major electrical modification is removing the motor-alternator. All Mark 3s are based on 415V three phase electricals, for LHCS the motor-alternator generates the three-phase supply, on an HST it comes directly from the power car auxiliary alternator. So an HST trailer is consequently less complicated (and therefore more reliable) than the LHCS equivalent.

My mistake, Grand Central's conversions 3Bs though? I'm sure somebody had ex-3Bs!

 

[43096]

My mistake, Grand Central's conversions 3Bs though? I'm sure somebody had ex-3Bs!

GC also ex-3A! Arriva converted some 3B FOs to TSOs. Maybe them you’re thinking of?

 

[Ex-controller]

I agree. I can't see ASLEF succeeding in blacklisting a fleet of 26 intercity trains. There isn't a compromise available due to age of units. Its use them or scrap them with 7-8 years left on lease. The cost gives the Scottish Government a huge incentive to play hardball. It will be a bad look once there are no HSTs are running in England and Wales but they have dug a big whole.

I absolutely can. They play hardball against drivers at ScotRail at their peril. What will happen is that through the LLC they will signal that they not be working them from 12th August next year and if any action gets taken against any driver refusing to work them, a ballot for strike action will take place.

They’ve already refused to drive class 153 units from the small cabs stating that they’re unsafe. Whilst these are only 5 units which constitute a micro fleet here, they are quite clear that they will stick to their position when it’s based on safety. There’s not much ScotRail can do about it, and I’m shocked they haven’t started putting plans in place to avert this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’ve already refused to drive class 153 units from the small cabs stating that they’re unsafe.

Funny how most 153 drivers I've spoken to prefer the small cab. The railway can be a bizarre place sometimes.