Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[Annetts key]

I'm sure that l read for the EMU Networkers that there were various mechanical bits under the banks of three seats, hence they couldn't be changed. Is that also the case for the DMUs?

The radiator coolant header tanks unfortunately protrude into the saloon, adding to the seat layout.

For a small fee, my sledgehammer can sort that problem out

Unfortunately, wastage like this seems to be one of the Railways worst pitfalls - seats, tables etc all thrown into the bin. Granted, there would be a cost to storing them (probably very little to negligible) but the amount ending up in the bin over the last few years must be quite high (I'm thinking FGW Standard, GWR First, VTEC Standard, ATW Mk3 standard etc).

Standard practice for the way our railways are currently run unfortunately. The DfT and the railway companies know only the cost rather than the value of things.

Would not surprise me if you did see a 5 car with an engine or two out - the turbos seem to be having real reliability issues recently, with loads of cancellations 'caused by too many of them needing repairs' according to GWR.
Not long ago I was on a 165 on the North Downs with one engine completely idle and another which kept revving up and then going back to idle every time it pulled away, which made us take 1hr 15m to get from Guildford to Gatwick (this was on one of the 'semi-fasts' too!)

Sounds just like some 150 Sprinters that do the same when pulling away, especially if going up hill!

I believe both 165 and 166 use hydraulic torque converters like the 150 Sprinters.

Have the turbos ever been reliable since being redeployed west?
Due to a lot of the services I use currently using mostly other stock, I am not travelling on them as often as a couple of years ago. But definitely back then they appeared to be rather unreliable. Often GWR having to play at swapping sets around and outgoing services from Temple Meads having to wait for an ( later) incoming service to pinch the set to replace a failed set…

 

[RPI]

For a small fee, my sledgehammer can sort that problem out


Standard practice for the way our railways are currently run unfortunately. The DfT and the railway companies know only the cost rather than the value of things.


Sounds just like some 150 Sprinters that do the same when pulling away, especially if going up hill!

I believe both 165 and 166 use hydraulic torque converters like the 150 Sprinters.

Have the turbos ever been reliable since being redeployed west?
Due to a lot of the services I use currently using mostly other stock, I am not travelling on them as often as a couple of years ago. But definitely back then they appeared to be rather unreliable. Often GWR having to play at swapping sets around and outgoing services from Temple Meads having to wait for an ( later) incoming service to pinch the set to replace a failed set…

The 16x certainly seem to be the worst offenders, whenever we end up with multiple short forms in Devon its usually because a turbo has failed and one or two of the 4 car 150 diagrams have to be split to cover.

It helps that all of the 150's basically live at Exeter St Davids so there doesnt seem to be the "for attention of home depot" fob offs that can occur on other fleets.

 

[fgwrich]

The 16x certainly seem to be the worst offenders, whenever we end up with multiple short forms in Devon its usually because a turbo has failed and one or two of the 4 car 150 diagrams have to be split to cover.

It helps that all of the 150's basically live at Exeter St Davids so there doesnt seem to be the "for attention of home depot" fob offs that can occur on other fleets.

Those 150/2s really are bulletproof units, and it's fair to say are the backbone of the South West.

 

[jackot]

Have the turbos ever been reliable since being redeployed west?
Due to a lot of the services I use currently using mostly other stock, I am not travelling on them as often as a couple of years ago. But definitely back then they appeared to be rather unreliable. Often GWR having to play at swapping sets around and outgoing services from Temple Meads having to wait for an ( later) incoming service to pinch the set to replace a failed set…

I definitely have my questions about their reliability in the West too, with lots of short forms and outright cancellations since moving there. Not to say they are really unreliable, but they seem to be a lot more problematic than the 158s for example. The Reading ones seem to have less issues to me.

 

[RPI]

The 16x failures in the West are usually for silly little failures too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==

Those 150/2s really are bulletproof units, and it's fair to say are the backbone of the South West.

I get laughed at when I say I'd much rather have any spare 150's from TfW than 158's!

 

[Deepgreen]

I went on 165109 today from Dorking to Guildford on a Gatwick to Reading run and it had been refreshed, but it also carried no first class ID inside whatsoever. No anti-macassars, no window stickers, spot lights not working and tables falling off. What a great introduction to UK railways for those arriving at Gatwick and using the NDL. On my return journey 165127 (2 car) was provided - so not even any possible first class on a service advertised with it. I'm going to write to Mark Hopwood about his TOC's cavalier attitude over many years regarding rolling stock presentation on the NDL - there's no excuse for the refresh programme not doing this basic stuff, nor for the unrefreshed units not even having anti-macassars to identify first class.

 

[windnoise69]

The 16x failures in the West are usually for silly little failures too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==


I get laughed at when I say I'd much rather have any spare 150's from TfW than 158's!

Define “silly little failures”. Trains are only failed if unsafe working conditions for passengers or staff

 

[JonathanH]

What a great introduction to UK railways for those arriving at Gatwick and using the NDL.

I suspect that the vast majority of people who use the North Downs Line to get to the airport are people from its catchment area flying out from Gatwick Airport, rather than inbound tourists, so your point really doesn't stand.

 

[jackot]

I went on 165109 today from Dorking to Guildford on a Gatwick to Reading run and it had been refreshed, but it also carried no first class ID inside whatsoever. No anti-macassars, no window stickers, spot lights not working and tables falling off. What a great introduction to UK railways for those arriving at Gatwick and using the NDL. On my return journey 165127 (2 car) was provided - so not even any possible first class on a service advertised with it. I'm going to write to Mark Hopwood about his TOC's cavalier attitude over many years regarding rolling stock presentation on the NDL - there's no excuse for the refresh programme not doing this basic stuff, nor for the unrefreshed units not even having anti-macassars to identify first class.

From my experience, none of the refurbished 165s have any first class indication whatsoever, probably in preparation for moving to the West - still not a good enough excuse to put a 50p sticker on the door saying first class though is it, especially when they will stay on the NDL for the foreseeable future judging by the 'progress' of the 769s?

However novel of a feature it is, it's a shame the lights aren't working again. I thought they had fixed those in the refurbishment - but then again, it really shows the fantastic workmanship and quality of this refurbishment as to be expected from Wolverton, with complete neglect to the fact they will be in service for another 6 years at least. It would likely save money in the long run to at least put some effort into a decent refurbishment now they are on lease until 2028. Why they could not fit full size tables to the FC in the 165s also confuses me, the space is no smaller than the 166s, and those mini tables have never stayed on properly. Its a shame as I find the first class seats really comfortable on the turbos, but without a proper table I find it unjustifiable - I can't think of any train in the country without proper tables in First Class.

 

[RPI]

Define “silly little failures”. Trains are only failed if unsafe working conditions for passengers or staff

Things that seem to break easier on turbos than they do on 150/158's

 

[fgwrich]

Things that seem to break easier on turbos than they do on 150/158's

Indeed, the robobog and small original toilet doors to name a few.

 

[REVUpminster]

From my experience, none of the refurbished 165s have any first class indication whatsoever, probably in preparation for moving to the West - still not a good enough excuse to put a 50p sticker on the door saying first class though is it, especially when they will stay on the NDL for the foreseeable future judging by the 'progress' of the 769s?

However novel of a feature it is, it's a shame the lights aren't working again. I thought they had fixed those in the refurbishment - but then again, it really shows the fantastic workmanship and quality of this refurbishment as to be expected from Wolverton, with complete neglect to the fact they will be in service for another 6 years at least. It would likely save money in the long run to at least put some effort into a decent refurbishment now they are on lease until 2028. Why they could not fit full size tables to the FC in the 165s also confuses me, the space is no smaller than the 166s, and those mini tables have never stayed on properly. Its a shame as I find the first class seats really comfortable on the turbos, but without a proper table I find it unjustifiable - I can't think of any train in the country without proper tables in First Class.

I've always believed all the 3 car 165s will end up at Exeter. I'm guessing there are 15 diagrams for the 150s

 

[JonathanH]

I've always believed all the 3 car 165s will end up at Exeter. I'm guessing there are 15 diagrams for the 150s

They are going to need to leave Reading first. Not sure there is the right amount of work for 16 high-capacity 3-car units to operate off Exeter in any case and the 150s continue to be needed in Cornwall.

 

[FenMan]

I'm going to write to Mark Hopwood about his TOC's cavalier attitude over many years regarding rolling stock presentation on the NDL - there's no excuse for the refresh programme not doing this basic stuff, nor for the unrefreshed units not even having anti-macassars to identify first class.

We are in the position where civil servants think they know how to get the best return from the railway (the "return" and for whom is another question entirely). Is it any wonder that industry veterans approaching retirement like Mark Hopwood appear to have given up? He's got a CBE out of it after all.

 

[Wolfie]

We are in the position where civil servants think they know how to get the best return from the railway (the "return" and for whom is another question entirely). Is it any wonder that industry veterans approaching retirement like Mark Hopwood appear to have given up? He's got a CBE out of it after all.

Civil servants do what politicians tell them to do.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've always believed all the 3 car 165s will end up at Exeter. I'm guessing there are 15 diagrams for the 150s

No current plans for the remaining 3 car 165s to leave Reading Depot (2 have made their way to St Phillips Marsh already but no more are due to follow).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==

On my return journey 165127 (2 car) was provided - so not even any possible first class on a service advertised with it.

Did you have a first class ticket? If so means have always been provided for claiming the difference when first class has not been provided, this has always been the case. It’s very rare for 2 car 165s to be provided on the North Downs.

I remember the days of 1st generation DMMU. when sometimes at times of unit failures sets without first class would on occasions be provided, it is nothing new.

 

[FGW_DID]

No booked 2 cars on the North Downs. A 2 car will only be covering for a failure which is what 165127 was doing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No booked 2 cars on the North Downs. A 2 car will only be covering for a failure which is what 165127 was doing.

Cue the inevitable sarcastic “Would you rather a shorter train or no train at all?” from someone whenever a short-form is (justifiably) complained of.

 

[FGW_DID]

Cue the inevitable sarcastic “Would you rather a shorter train or no train at all?” from someone whenever a short-form is (justifiably) complained of.

I’ll keep my 2 cars on depot then, the next time a 3 car fails and another 3 isn’t available!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ll keep my 2 cars on depot then, the next time a 3 car fails and another 3 isn’t available!

I don’t necessarily disagree with it, I just find it funny how often people say that exact expression on this forum

 

[Snow1964]

From my experience, none of the refurbished 165s have any first class indication whatsoever, probably in preparation for moving to the West - still not a good enough excuse to put a 50p sticker on the door saying first class though is it, especially when they will stay on the NDL for the foreseeable future judging by the 'progress' of the 769s?

However novel of a feature it is, it's a shame the lights aren't working again. I thought they had fixed those in the refurbishment - but then again, it really shows the fantastic workmanship and quality of this refurbishment as to be expected from Wolverton, with complete neglect to the fact they will be in service for another 6 years at least. It would likely save money in the long run to at least put some effort into a decent refurbishment now they are on lease until 2028. Why they could not fit full size tables to the FC in the 165s also confuses me, the space is no smaller than the 166s, and those mini tables have never stayed on properly. Its a shame as I find the first class seats really comfortable on the turbos, but without a proper table I find it unjustifiable - I can't think of any train in the country without proper tables in First Class.

The mini refresh (or whatever it is officially called) is not really working on trains in the west, they are getting so heavily used the cheap materials are never going to last until the current end of lease in 2028.

Those in Thames valley used to see some heavy peak loadings and fairly light off peak loadings, currently those in the west are seeing heavy loadings and churn through whole day, so everything is wearing faster. Below is a picture of a door grab pole where the coating had worn through to bare metal in places, that illustrates the level of wear the west units are getting.

It almost feels like the refresh was a badly thought out stop-gap, and not something suitable for another 6 or 7 years in service.

The best thing they could do in my opinion, would be to pause the refresh, and start a proper refurbishment now that the trains are being retained until at least 2028 (and could easily be to nearer 2029-2032). Basically need proper work suitable for 6-10 years extra service.

 

[amazon1675]

When are the 769s due to enter service on the NDL ?

 

[henairs]

Civil servants do what politicians tell them to do.

Think that should be the other way around. Politicians come and go like a merry go round system but civil servants usually spend their whole lives in the job or at least most of them.
Even us normal humble folk take little notice of politicians these days due to their ineptness.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

When are the 769s due to enter service on the NDL ?

769s go off lease end of March 2023.

 

[davetheguard]

Civil servants do what politicians tell them to do.

Not in Yes Minister they don't!

 

[Wolfie]

Not in Yes Minister they don't!

Hahaha.

Well, we set out all of the options and the implications.... Sometimes ministers need to be told what is likely to happen....

 

[Annetts key]

I believe it’s something along the lines of the Civil Service actually run the country, but let the politicians in the government think that they are running the country.

Politicians are not supposed to be experts (that does not mean that they can’t be). So ministers are supposed to set policies based on err, recommendations that the Civil Service have worked out after noting what the minister(s) want.

 

[jackot]

The mini refresh (or whatever it is officially called) is not really working on trains in the west, they are getting so heavily used the cheap materials are never going to last until the current end of lease in 2028.

Those in Thames valley used to see some heavy peak loadings and fairly light off peak loadings, currently those in the west are seeing heavy loadings and churn through whole day, so everything is wearing faster. Below is a picture of a door grab pole where the coating had worn through to bare metal in places, that illustrates the level of wear the west units are getting.

It almost feels like the refresh was a badly thought out stop-gap, and not something suitable for another 6 or 7 years in service.

The best thing they could do in my opinion, would be to pause the refresh, and start a proper refurbishment now that the trains are being retained until at least 2028 (and could easily be to nearer 2029-2032). Basically need proper work suitable for 6-10 years extra service.

Yes, the units in the West are definitely experiencing high churn and loadings, and therefore seem to be in a worse state overall than the Reading ones. It really hasn't been thought out well considering how much longer they will be in service as you said. I understand doing a 'light refresh' on a fleet like Avanti's 221s which are soon to be replaced and are on the way out (at least as far as Avanti's operations are concerned), but a 'light refresh' does not cut in on neglected and heavily used units with potentially another decade in service.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I’m not sure they are getting heavier use than they used to get at RG - the off peak services there could get very busy.

It’s the materials used for the refresh that is the problem - they are not up to the job.

But don’t even think of stopping the programme now or trying to enlarge the scope. That will just get it cancelled by the DfT, who had to be really persuaded to do it in the first place, despite the state of the units (thanks to the DfT refusing any refurbs on two previous occasions).

 

[FenMan]

I’m not sure they are getting heavier use than they used to get at RG - the off peak services there could get very busy.

Quite. Some contributors based in the west don't appear to realise the Reading - Gatwicks semi-fasts are well patronised all day and can often be full to bursting.