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Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

Envoy

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And the Gloucester to Newport line has had mass XC cancellations!

What I'm saying is downgrading your product in one area just to upgrade it to another is silly.

Frankly, TfW should not be giving up the 170s, then there'd be no issue introducing 231s ON Rhymney services. But, it's the Welsh government, and not voting for further devolution means you should have worse public services and the highest taxes!!
I suggest that you send a letter outlining your complaints to Mark Harper (MP for Forest of Dean & now Transport Secretary) as well as Lee Waters MS (who is called Deputy Minister for Climate Change but appears to be responsible for Transport in Wales). The Gloucester to Newport/Cardiff route of course covers both countries with Welsh based Transport for Wales and English based Cross Country providing the services. A by-pass at Chepstow would be mainly in Wales but I guess the bulk of the traffic on it is using the A48 to/from Lydney and the Forest of Dean.

I can understand TfW getting the Stadler 231’s onto the Rhymney line first as they need to get rid of the 769’s as soon as possible. I wonder how long it will be until they have the tri-mode 756’s in service on the Rhymney line? Had TfW got on with their training and got the 197’s into service - at least in the north, then that would have freed up some 175’s for the Cheltenham/Gloucester to south Wales route. I understand that they now have considerable numbers of 197’s just lying idle at various sidings in the Midlands.

The introduction of more Class 67’s on The Marches will also help free up some 175’s.
 
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And the Gloucester to Newport line has had mass XC cancellations!

What I'm saying is downgrading your product in one area just to upgrade it to another is silly.

Frankly, TfW should not be giving up the 170s, then there'd be no issue introducing 231s ON Rhymney services. But, it's the Welsh government, and not voting for further devolution means you should have worse public services and the highest taxes!!


I’m not sure how you can claim a downgrade when the 231s have never been in service on the line. I see most working are 3-car Turbostars, so no idea what you’re grizzling about.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I’m not sure how you can claim a downgrade when the 231s have never been in service on the line. I see most working are 3-car Turbostars, so no idea what you’re grizzling about.
Assuming we are talking about Cardiff-Cheltenham here then the 3-car 170s are likely to be replaced by 2-car 150s for a while until the 231s are available. I strongly suspect going from a 170 to a 150 is a downgrade in most people's books.
 

CardiffKid

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I strongly suspect going from a 170 to a 150 is a downgrade in most people's books.

Agree for passengers travelling on the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale lines they were used to Pacers and 150s.

Now it’s almost exclusively 170s.

Soon to be 150s again

Then this time next year(?) 231s.

If you’re used to travelling on 170s that have now been in daily service for three years, suddenly finding yourself on a 150 is absolutely a downgrade/inferior product.
 

Nick Ashwell

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take a try living in west wales, however the 769s are unreliable and causing short forms across the network by sucking up 150s and 153s onto the line by replacing them with 231s everyone can get a service
So we should lose out in South East Wales? We were told 170s then 231s, at no point were we told 150s again on what are perfect services for 170s (apart from CDT to STJ) ?!
I suspect it is DfT telling TfW that they wouldnt be keeping the 170s.
EMR is THE up and coming operator hence why DfT are swinging 170s towards them as much as possible.

In my view all the new rolling stock types will be come a millstone round the necks of the Senedd. Class 197 231 398 and 756 as well as more Mk4s will make TPE's triple traction sem like a walk in the park, as well as stabling all the trains in the conversion from to new. I presume Barry will fuldfil the role that the MNR new sidings did for the Stadler fleet in Anglia.

What are the usage differences between 231 and 756 ? And once electrified are there distinct routes for 398s or 756s, or will there be dual operation under the OLE ?
The 170s were originally slated for the long term. I'd like to know who made that promise then made the lease so short, definitely a Welsh government employee no doubt.
I suggest that you send a letter outlining your complaints to Mark Harper (MP for Forest of Dean & now Transport Secretary) as well as Lee Waters MS (who is called Deputy Minister for Climate Change but appears to be responsible for Transport in Wales). The Gloucester to Newport/Cardiff route of course covers both countries with Welsh based Transport for Wales and English based Cross Country providing the services. A by-pass at Chepstow would be mainly in Wales but I guess the bulk of the traffic on it is using the A48 to/from Lydney and the Forest of Dean.

I can understand TfW getting the Stadler 231’s onto the Rhymney line first as they need to get rid of the 769’s as soon as possible. I wonder how long it will be until they have the tri-mode 756’s in service on the Rhymney line? Had TfW got on with their training and got the 197’s into service - at least in the north, then that would have freed up some 175’s for the Cheltenham/Gloucester to south Wales route. I understand that they now have considerable numbers of 197’s just lying idle at various sidings in the Midlands.

The introduction of more Class 67’s on The Marches will also help free up some 175’s.
You may only write to your local MP and don't get me started on David "I'm not homophobic vecuase I punched a gay man" Davis.

The lack of cross border conversation is the entire issue. Developers only have to build in the local area, and my grandfather, who has run Westbury, is shocked at the lack of infrastructure investment.
Assuming we are talking about Cardiff-Cheltenham here then the 3-car 170s are likely to be replaced by 2-car 150s for a while until the 231s are available. I strongly suspect going from a 170 to a 150 is a downgrade in most people's books.
Exactly, although I'd like to know who disagrees with that hypothesis
Yes it has. That's why there's the new railway tunnel east of the Wye Bridge and the new road bridge over the Wye alongside the railway bridge.
The 70s bypass, that bypassed the single lane archway, not a true bypass! Then allow unrestricted buildung near Lydney and think of the consequences!!!
 

Rhydgaled

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The 170s were originally slated for the long term. I'd like to know who made that promise then made the lease so short, definitely a Welsh government employee no doubt.
See my post yesterday on this; are you sure it was a short lease? There are franchise documents from the KeolisAmey era stating that the class 170 lease end date is "16/10/2033 + [REDACTED]" - my interpretation of that is that the 170s were on a very long lease that would not have expired until after the planned end of the KeolisAmey franchise. In comparison even the brand new CAF and Stadler fleets were (and, I believe, still are) only leased until 16/10/2033 (the franchise end date). The 170s are going to EMR now, but could it be that TfW are exactly subleasing them to EMR? Or has the original long lease to TfW been renegotiated?
 

Envoy

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Yes it has. That's why there's the new railway tunnel east of the Wye Bridge and the new road bridge over the Wye alongside the railway bridge.
Yes, avoids the old town centre but does not by-pass the terrible hill on the western side. It will be very difficult to build a complete by-pass for Chepstow judging by looking at a map. Perhaps the only way would be to go around to the south to reach Junction 2 on the M48 - and even that would require the partial demolition of the business park. All the more reason to have a decent train service with convenient connections at Severn Tunnel Junction for services to the English side of the estuary.

Anyway, perhaps we should now get back on topic about the introduction of the FLIRTS.
 

Bob Price

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The use of 398's may be expanding as TfW are consulting on the extension of the Bay lines to Newport road and other destinations. A consultation with maps etc can be found in the link below. If the full network is accepted then a number of new units would probably be needed.
 

Rhydgaled

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How many 3 carriage flirts are Wales getting? I thought they were all 4 car.
7 x 3 car and 17 X 4 car according to Wikipedia
That's only the 756s, I understand that TfW have 35 FLIRTs on-order in total (24x class 756 and 11x class 231).

Are there platforms on their planned routes that will take a 3-231/756 and not a 4-231//756? If not, what is the point of purposely ordering shorter trains?
Cheaper?
Or there may be routes that can take six (but not eight) cars.
I don't think there are any 3-car class 231s. The 756s are for the Core Valley Lines and Vale Of Glamorgan so that's where any platform issues would be. If I recall correctly the platforms on the Rhymney (except Gilfach Fargoed), Treherbert and Penarth lines were upgraded to 124 metres to take a 6-car class 150 while the Barry, Merthyr and Aberdare lines could take a 4-car 150 I thought. I think that just leaves Gilfach Fargoed (and possibly the Coryton branch) with short platforms.

Some concerns were raised in the early days of the franchise regarding capacity of a 4-car 756 versus a 769 (total capacity, including standing, is 560 for a class 769 and only 425 for a 4-car class 756) so I thought they might be planning to use 6-car FLIRTs to Penarth and Rhymney (2x3-car FLIRTs would have a total capacity of 638) but now I think that - unless the electrification was continuous and you removed the battery/diesel power pack modules - a 2x3-car FLIRT would be over 124 metres and thus longer than the platforms (although the doors aren't at the vehicle ends so...). I vaugely recall reading somewhere that the 3-car FLIRTs are intended to be used on the Coryton services and Caerphilly terminiators, but don't hold me to it.
 

anamyd

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Indeed, no 3-coach 231s.

The 35x TfW FLIRTs:
11x 4-coach 231s, 7x 3-coach 756s and 17x 4-coach 756s.
 

Ribbleman

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That's only the 756s, I understand that TfW have 35 FLIRTs on-order in total (24x class 756 and 11x class 231).

I don't think there are any 3-car class 231s. The 756s are for the Core Valley Lines and Vale Of Glamorgan so that's where any platform issues would be. If I recall correctly the platforms on the Rhymney (except Gilfach Fargoed), Treherbert and Penarth lines were upgraded to 124 metres to take a 6-car class 150 while the Barry, Merthyr and Aberdare lines could take a 4-car 150 I thought. I think that just leaves Gilfach Fargoed (and possibly the Coryton branch) with short platforms.

Some concerns were raised in the early days of the franchise regarding capacity of a 4-car 756 versus a 769 (total capacity, including standing, is 560 for a class 769 and only 425 for a 4-car class 756) so I thought they might be planning to use 6-car FLIRTs to Penarth and Rhymney (2x3-car FLIRTs would have a total capacity of 638) but now I think that - unless the electrification was continuous and you removed the battery/diesel power pack modules - a 2x3-car FLIRT would be over 124 metres and thus longer than the platforms (although the doors aren't at the vehicle ends so...). I vaugely recall reading somewhere that the 3-car FLIRTs are intended to be used on the Coryton services and Caerphilly terminiators, but don't hold me to it.
Are TfW not planning to increase frequencies on at least some of these services? That would resolve capacity issues.
 

Caaardiff

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Are TfW not planning to increase frequencies on at least some of these services? That would resolve capacity issues.
Yes. Most routes on Valleys services will see an increase in frequency that should balance out the capacity. 4 car 150/769 was always sufficient capacity, whereas 2 car 150 would generally be full if not leaving people behind. It's rare to see a 4 car 150 or 769 completely full or leave people behind, even on a match day under current frequencies.
 

AdamWW

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My memory is that the total capacity (allowing for the increase in frequencies) was still less. Could be wrong though.
 

Express380

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Do we have a rough date when the 231s will enter service, I presume it will still be the Rhymney line receiving them first.

Many thanks.
 

anthony263

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All going to plan I've heard the first class 231 will enter service on the Rhymney to Penarth line on Monday
 

AdamWW

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So.....

At least one platform at Central won't have level boarding for FLIRTs, at least initially.

Or not the sort of level boarding that means a wheelchair user can board/alight unassisted?

Or.....?

I'm surprised at this. The "ramp" I've seen used on an Anglia FLIRT was practically flat - a gap filler rather than a ramp in the sense of accommodating a change in level.
 

CardiffKid

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This does appear from the photo to be a very small ‘ramp’ so it might be as you said a ‘gap filler’
 

AdamWW

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This does appear from the photo to be a very small ‘ramp’ so it might be as you said a ‘gap filler’

Looking at the photo again, the phrasing "Level access only" and "0-55mm"* might be a bit of a clue.

Though - helpful as it is - I'm not sure who it's aimed at. I'd have thought all staff needed to know is that it's for use with a 231.
(I hope also 756...)

* Didn't anyone tell the person making the lable that one puts a space between a number and its unit?
 

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