5 car IET's from Truro to London. 7/12

[Master29]

Just curious to know why only 5 car trains are being used to and from Truro whilst in virtually all cases they're joining up as 10 car at Plymouth? I understand that there are works between Truro and Penzance but just would like to know the reason given the future increase in 9?10 car trains to Penzance.

 

[brad465]

Does Truro have a platform length limitation that means terminating a 9 car is not possible (even though SDO presumably allows 9 cars to make an intermediate call)?

 

[Master29]

Does Truro have a platform length limitation that means terminating a 9 car is not possible (even though SDO presumably allows 9 cars to make an intermediate call)?

It may be that but I'm sure 9 car have terminated there in the past.

 

[TreacleMiller]

We stop 10 car trains on platforms that don't take more than 3 carriages sometimes on the 800s. SDO manual or headcode based shouldn't be an issue.

More likely that the 5s are operationally needed on another route and may couple with another set elsewhere on the network.

 

[VP185]

9 and 10 cars terminating at Truro would block the level crossing, obviously depending on how long they are booked to sit there that would cause an issue.
Another possibility, a 10-car would require two drivers to shunt the train across.

 

[JN114]

Length restriction prevents turning round a 9 car at Truro

10 car would need 2 drivers; and foul the length restriction above.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes there has been a very notable loss of punctuality at Plymouth this week with most trains splitting and joining again just like 2019 2020. Can't say I've missed all the faff of it to be honest but I suspect its the future on the wofe route going forward unfortunately.

 

[kernowbususer]

I travelled SAU to PLY and return on Tuesday of this week on London trains and both journeys had set swaps at Plymouth.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Its called 'modernisation'. Introduce nice, modern trains, than cause more complications and a worse service.
Expect more modernisation on the railway, as its what the government wants.

 

[Xavi]

I suspect its the future on the wofe route going forward unfortunately.

With Ponsandane sidings opening and 5-car on Cardiff- Penzance there’s meant to be less splitting at Plymouth and more 9-car units overnight at Long Rock.

 

[RPI]

Its to do with the overlap at Truro, because the trains are terminating there, they would block the level crossing for too long if 9/10 formation.

 

[irish_rail]

With Ponsandane sidings opening and 5-car on Cardiff- Penzance there’s meant to be less splitting at Plymouth and more 9-car units overnight at Long Rock.

I have a feeling that's to provide the first few trains of day and last few of the night that from London go onto Swansea and Bristol workings. Most of the day it'll be pairs or single 802s for us on the "proper" intercity GWR route.

 

[Goldfish62]

With Ponsandane sidings opening and 5-car on Cardiff- Penzance there’s meant to be less splitting at Plymouth and more 9-car units overnight at Long Rock.

In normal circumstances 5-car IETs in Cornwall are a rare beast. It's mostly 9-cars with a smattering of 10 and 5.

I've not been on anything other than a 9-car in Cornwall for ages.

 

[irish_rail]

In normal circumstances 5-car IETs in Cornwall are a rare beast. It's mostly 9-cars with a smattering of 10 and 5.

I've not been on anything other than a 9-car in Cornwall for ages.

Agreed, but I fear the plan over coming years will change now the 22 5car 802s are to be based at Laira. Also the the 9 cars are seen as better trains than 10s or 5s which is why I fear they will be too good for the west country now covid is a distant memory and travellers are returning further east.

 

[Goldfish62]

Agreed, but I fear the plan over coming years will change now the 22 5car 802s are to be based at Laira.

Really? Is Laira to become a Hitachi depot then?

 

[RPI]

Agreed, but I fear the plan over coming years will change now the 22 5car 802s are to be based at Laira. Also the the 9 cars are seen as better trains than 10s or 5s which is why I fear they will be too good for the west country now covid is a distant memory and travellers are returning further east.

Not sure even I'd be that pessimistic, the only route that continually seems to be rammed is the Paddington to Westcountry route.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not sure even I'd be that pessimistic, the only route that continually seems to be rammed is the Paddington to Westcountry route.

I concur from personal experience at pretty much any time of year, particularly the services to/from Cornwall. I know from inside sources that when there's an IET shortage the West of England route is prioritised for full length trains and the shorter routes take the hit.

The recent station usage data from ORR suggest that (given the lag in the data) stations in Cornwall have returned to pre-pandemic levels at least.

 

[FGW_DID]

Really? Is Laira to become a Hitachi depot then?

From what I gather, Laira will remain a GWR depot but will take on more maintenance of the 802 fleet, but they wont necessarily be based there.

 

[Xavi]

Most of the day it'll be pairs or single 802s for us on the "proper" intercity GWR route.

Let’s wait and see. What I’ve read indicates London - Devon/Cornwall is now GWR’s best performing route.

 

[Horizon22]

Not sure even I'd be that pessimistic, the only route that continually seems to be rammed is the Paddington to Westcountry route.

And to Oxford, but the only real long-term solution would be to have splitting at Oxford, given the completely disproprotionate nature of travel and 70-80% people going to that station.

But lengthening the sidings will be a big benefit. Penzance and Plymouth trains are generally prioritised most when there's a IET shortage with Bristol services normally take the brunt of a short-formation when swapped around at Paddington.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In normal circumstances 5-car IETs in Cornwall are a rare beast. It's mostly 9-cars with a smattering of 10 and 5.

I've not been on anything other than a 9-car in Cornwall for ages.

I travelled from Exeter to Paddington in an ex-Penzance on a recent weekday, which was only a 5-car. The train manager did apologise for the short formation (not sure if it was supposed to be 9 or 10).

 

[Goldfish62]

I travelled from Exeter to Paddington in an ex-Penzance on a recent weekday, which was only a 5-car. The train manager did apologise for the short formation (not sure if it was supposed to be 9 or 10).

As I say, 5 cars is unusual.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I have a feeling that's to provide the first few trains of day and last few of the night that from London go onto Swansea and Bristol workings. Most of the day it'll be pairs or single 802s for us on the "proper" intercity GWR route.

You’ve a very negative take on a route where GWR has gone to immense effort to move the 9 car 802 to Pad to West of England. There’s no plan for this to change.

The majority of Castle HSTs actually overnight at Bristol and that won’t change when they become 802s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==

Agreed, but I fear the plan over coming years will change now the 22 5car 802s are to be based at Laira. Also the the 9 cars are seen as better trains than 10s or 5s which is why I fear they will be too good for the west country now covid is a distant memory and travellers are returning further east.

The 802s will remain allocated to Hitachi Depots and this is where the specialist exams will be done. Both the 5 and 9 car 802s will start to have more lighter exams done at Laira.

 

[Master29]

Its called 'modernisation'. Introduce nice, modern trains, than cause more complications and a worse service.
Expect more modernisation on the railway, as its what the government wants.

Or more than likely they haven't got a bloody clue what they're doing.

You’ve a very negative take on a route where GWR has gone to immense effort to move the 9 car 802 to Pad to West of England. There’s no plan for this to change.

The majority of Castle HSTs actually overnight at Bristol and that won’t change when they become 802s.

GWR screwed up in the first place in ordering too many 5 car units that were supposed to be the norm with virtually no 9 car units west of Plymouth at all. Well, that went well. Anyone could see that this was never going to work over the summer. At least it's finally sunk in at First.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Or more than likely they haven't got a bloody clue what they're doing.

GWR screwed up in the first place in ordering too many 5 car units that were supposed to be the norm with virtually no 9 car units west of Plymouth at all. Well, that went well. Anyone could see that this was never going to work over the summer. At least it's finally sunk in at First.

No GWR didn’t screw up, it was related to funding. @Clarence Yard has explained this many times - the choices on the table at the time was 9 cars to Cornwall or Cornwall half-hourly. Both was never an option when the 802s were ordered.

So many people seem to think the railway has access to a money pot!! It can only buy what it’s authorised to.

 

[irish_rail]

You’ve a very negative take on a route where GWR has gone to immense effort to move the 9 car 802 to Pad to West of England. There’s no plan for this to change.

The majority of Castle HSTs actually overnight at Bristol and that won’t change when they become 802s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==



The 802s will remain allocated to Hitachi Depots and this is where the specialist exams will be done. Both the 5 and 9 car 802s will start to have more lighter exams done at Laira.

Right thanks for confirming . Good to know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==

No GWR didn’t screw up, it was related to funding. @Clarence Yard has explained this many times - the choices on the table at the time was 9 cars to Cornwall or Cornwall half-hourly. Both was never an option when the 802s were ordered.

So many people seem to think the railway has access to a money pot!! It can only buy what it’s authorised to.

I guess its a case of hindsight being a wonderful thing. There's no doubt about it now, GWR has too many 5 car sets. Pity some couldn't have gone to Avanti and some new 9 cars built for GWR instead to replace them.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Right thanks for confirming . Good to know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==


I guess its a case of hindsight being a wonderful thing. There's no doubt about it now, GWR has too many 5 car sets. Pity some couldn't have gone to Avanti and some new 9 cars built for GWR instead to replace them.

Hindsight may be wonderful but you can only buy what you’re authorised/funded to buy….

 

[Master29]

Hindsight may be wonderful but you can only buy what you’re authorised/funded to buy….

It was hardly hindsight from the point of view from those that use the W of E line but point taken. It was still a screw up whoever was responsible This is a separate topic I think.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I travelled from Exeter to Paddington in an ex-Penzance on a recent weekday, which was only a 5-car. The train manager did apologise for the short formation (not sure if it was supposed to be 9 or 10).

What was the loading level like as it was short formed?

 

[Clarence Yard]

It was hardly hindsight from the point of view from those that use the W of E line but point taken. It was still a screw up whoever was responsible This is a separate topic I think.

It may be instructive to know how this kind of thing has to be proved.

When you look at a stretch of line and the service position on it, you have to use the industry revenue and loads prediction system (MOIRA) to do it. The DfT won’t accept anything else. So you plug in your projected service and get the answers. Then you take your existing loads (and the GWR database is really good - for the whole year), do a comparison and adjust as necessary, as MOIRA works on whole industry demand spread averages, not location specific. So, for example, your daily peak at a certain location may be slightly different to actual so you manually adjust how your increased demand will be spread through the day.

In the case of the 802 fleet, going load 9 or 10 into Cornwall in the DA2 award period would have meant two things - you needed the equivalent of 5 extra 5 cars in diagram (6 in the fleet) and you killed the case for the Cornish half hourly in the process. There just wasn’t the loadings to justify both, even with the most optimistic future demand forecasts. And if you can’t prove the loadings, you can’t get the stock authorised.

7 cars was looked at because they would have fitted at Long Rock but they wouldn’t have coped with the demand from Plymouth inwards to London so you needed load 9 or 10 on that stretch. But you just couldn’t justify them all the way through to Penzance all the time so instead of ordering 22 x 5 cars, you would have needed 14 x 9. So that was 16 cars more (with stabling issues at the country end) and no Cornish half hourly. You can see why the decision to go 5 car was made.

But, in the medium to long term, you could see a case for longer trains into Cornwall developing and so it was felt to be best to go with the Cornish half hourly now and extend the 802 fleet later. There was also a real fear that if you didn’t get the Cornish half hourly in then, it might never happen and that was something that, in hindsight, GWR and Cornwall got absolutely right.

Most of the time a 5 car is perfectly adequate for Plymouth to Penzance but the operational headache of splitting and joining (which the WR hates) is something that is best avoided if you can. The provision of extra siding space at the Penzance end helps this so you don’t have to split and join most of the starters and finishers (because the space at land locked Long Rock wasn’t there for 9 cars) and the fall off in long distance commuting on the GWML from Parkway and Temple Meads inwards to Paddington has released enough units to allow for constant long train working into Cornwall, a bit earlier than GWR had previously planned for.

Unfortunately, playing fantasy units is out. The DfT have made it plain they do not see GWR getting any more 800 series cars at the moment and, contractually, they want to stick to the current fleets being where they are. I suspect that extending the 5 cars might come into play in the next few years but as part of a wider DfT fleet reorganisation that would involve Cross Country.

Sometimes you have to play a less than ideal game to get a result but, getting back to the original question posed here, if GWR didn’t have 5 cars, Bertie the bus might have had to be used for a longer journey than it had to or alternatively everyone would been crammed into a DMU.