Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

[Citybreak1]

Just wondering why sleeper trains from St Pancras have never happened given how popular these seem in Europe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just wondering why sleeper trains from St Pancras have never happened given how popular these seem in Europe?

The safety and security requirements get in the way somewhat.

There are of course some from Euston and Paddington, though one wonders if they may be "low hanging fruit" to kill off for the forthcoming cuts, so I'd ride them while you can.

 

[Marton]

Just wondering why sleeper trains from St Pancras have never happened given how popular these seem in Europe?

I think Never is a tad wrong. Back in the 50s and 60s there were Sleepers from St Pancras to Scotland.

Had Nightstar survived would it not also have used St Pancras? The carriages were even built, and now survive in Canada.

One day perhaps…

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

If you're talking about sleeper trains through the Channel Tunnel, there were plans which were abandoned for various technical and economic reasons, including the emergence of low cost airlines. The custom-designed sleeping cars were eventually sold to VIA Rail in Canada.

Nightstar (train) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How viable would a night sleeper from outside London to Ashford International be?

Assuming that a HS2 - HS1 link (or, at least, through HS2 - Calais and beyond services) is never going to happen and that Eurostar services will return to Ashford using a similar timetable to 2019 (most eastbound calls leaving between 06:00 and 08:00), how viable would a night sleeper service...

www.railforums.co.uk

Nightstar (Renaissance Sleepers)?

Watching a youtube trip report about The Ocean, a Canadian train, I learned that the sleepers were built in Britain. Apparently intended as a Channel Tunnel sleeper car, but never used for that. Any info what caused the change of plans, or pointers towards that info, please?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[jamesontheroad]

The Nightstar was intended, from the earliest days of the Channel Tunnel project, to compliment the Eurostar. As @Gag Halfrunt explains above, the project hit a number of unrelated problems.

Firstly (as is the case with new night train projects in Europe today) the service needed entirely new rolling stock. A variant of the BR Mk. 3 was designed and built to be in compliance with all the heightened safety and operational requirements of the tunnel, but also to include more en-suite bathrooms and showers (which added weight and complexity). Then, as the launch date approach, Ryanair and Easyjet (and to a lesser extent Buzz, Go, etc) took to the skies, revolutionising the market for short haul air travel in Europe. Had they not existed, Nightstar would probably have launched because it would have been genuinely competitive against the very expensive European airfares offered by the legacy/flag carriers at the time.

I rode VIA Rail's 'Renaissance' carriages on several trips in the mid-2000s. The seated coaches are very strange - unlike anything seen in a Mk. 3 bodyshell in the UK. They feature 2+1 seating, mostly unidirectional if I remember, with each pair of seats raised above the level of the aisle and with overhead storage in front of you (i.e. over the seats in front). The seats were pretty horrid: they recline but I found them very firm and the touchpoints around the seat to be very hard and uncomfortable. But they were quite bold in their imagination of how to build a seated car for overnight travel.

 

[43096]

Firstly (as is the case with new night train projects in Europe today) the service needed entirely new rolling stock. A variant of the BR Mk. 3 was designed and built to be in compliance with all the heightened safety and operational requirements of the tunnel,

It was not a variant of the Mark 3 that was built. Mark 3s were BR/BREL heritage, Nightstock was a GEC/Met-Camm design. It would have more in common with Class 156 and the Mark 4s.

 

[dutchflyer]

Just wondering why sleeper trains from St Pancras have never happened given how popular these seem in Europe?

IN the time they were planned sleepers were not very populair at all-most thought of it as another dying breed. In that period many new hi-speed raillines were opened, so cut the traveltime a lot. Plus that at around that time-as said in other posts too, THE wave was for the dozens of newly founded low-cost airlines-both as type of product and as allowed to open any route in the EU, whereas the classic airlines always had to do with stringent rules&regulations for airports served, routings etc. Only a few of the really dozens of those airlines remain in service till today-you know them likely.
This (IMHO partly/grossly overhyped) new revival is only from the last 2-3 yrs when OeBB re-launched the few remaining such services as NightJet-when RailJet for daytime InterCity trains was already known as a very good product. Plus that around that time eco-consciousness started to grow and this leads to ban airline-use train. Yes, if one reads that german forum -DSO- one may easily get the impression that all of DE=Germany only wants to use single-use cabins de-luxe in those sleepers and are desperate to book these as soon as the booking-window opens-but it really remains a tiny niche-market. Compared to other forms of travel longer distance, the sleeper/couchette does in fact not attract that many repeat custom from those who tried it out-and after I´ve done such a repeat last spring in a SNCF-couchette I again understand why.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

A variant of the BR Mk. 3 was designed

The Nightstar cars were based on the Mark 4, not the Mark 3.

 

[jamesontheroad]

The Nightstar cars were based on the Mark 4, not the Mark 3.

Quite right, thanks for the correction. The bodyshell is reminiscent of the Mk.3 because it doesn't feature the sloping flanks of the Mk.4.

 

[popeter45]

the main issue that kills off every suggestion is essentally: how do you do security?
if at stations how do you justify an entire international suite at every station along the route for 1 train a day
if on board how?, at seat Home office would never allow as easy to hide in loo's, in a dedicated customs carriage would Home office allow that and how would that work?

add in the miminum 375m length and ban on locos on some of St Pancras patforms and lack of demand it sadly makes no economic sence

 

[AlterEgo]

I think Never is a tad wrong. Back in the 50s and 60s there were Sleepers from St Pancras to Scotland.

Had Nightstar survived would it not also have used St Pancras? The carriages were even built, and now survive in Canada.

One day perhaps…

He means to Europe, as per the thread title.

 

[rvdborgt]

This (IMHO partly/grossly overhyped) new revival is only from the last 2-3 yrs when OeBB re-launched the few remaining such services as NightJet-when RailJet for daytime InterCity trains was already known as a very good product.

You mean the last 6 years.

Compared to other forms of travel longer distance, the sleeper/couchette does in fact not attract that many repeat custom from those who tried it out

Do you have any data about this you can share?

 

[Citybreak1]

the main issue that kills off every suggestion is essentally: how do you do security?
if at stations how do you justify an entire international suite at every station along the route for 1 train a day
if on board how?, at seat Home office would never allow as easy to hide in loo's, in a dedicated customs carriage would Home office allow that and how would that work?

add in the miminum 375m length and ban on locos on some of St Pancras patforms and lack of demand it sadly makes no economic sence

Passport checks on the train maybe? Maybe international sleeper trains from Stratford instead?

 

[MCR247]

Passport checks on the train maybe? Maybe international sleeper trains from Stratford instead?

But to where? The problem about security is less on the UK side (where facilities already exist at St Pancras) but more about the continental side. Where do you do the security and passport checks there? Wake people up at Lille at 4am?

 

[SeanG]

I have always had the idea of running sleeper trains from St Pancras to Europe. One pair of trains running to/from London with all security done at St Pancras as per Eurostar, then splitting /joining at appropriate locations - could coaches be added to the Paris - Vienna nightjet for example? (Not sure on timings etc).

I imagine that special stock would be required for the tunnel but I would hope that a big enough order would justify it.

 

[philg999]

But sleepers are not very popular in Europe! Ok the ones that remain are mostly booked out well in advance (and I guess the popularity is growing a bit now) but compared to the number of day trains and flights there are, the number of sleeper routes now is tiny. They’re very expensive to run as well - high spec coaches with limited capacity requiring high staff levels that can only be used for 12h max a day, the need to keep infra staffed at night for only a handful of trains, and with the tunnel security checks and now Brexit border issues, it’s not practical to serve places other than a few key hubs on cross channel traffic - and these routes are too short to warrant sleepers themselves. It would require a colossal amount of public subsidy from numerous governments, when normally long distance international express rail services are expected to pay for themselves.

 

[popeter45]

I have always had the idea of running sleeper trains from St Pancras to Europe. One pair of trains running to/from London with all security done at St Pancras as per Eurostar, then splitting /joining at appropriate locations - could coaches be added to the Paris - Vienna nightjet for example? (Not sure on timings etc).

I imagine that special stock would be required for the tunnel but I would hope that a big enough order would justify it.

Then where do you do security on the way back to the UK?

 

[Roast Veg]

the main issue that kills off every suggestion is essentally: how do you do security?
if at stations how do you justify an entire international suite at every station along the route for 1 train a day

The only reasonable possibility is to do it at Lille and Ashford, and run into an alternative London terminal.

But to where? The problem about security is less on the UK side (where facilities already exist at St Pancras) but more about the continental side. Where do you do the security and passport checks there? Wake people up at Lille at 4am?

7am for an 8:30am arrival is the best you could hope for. In the outward direction you do the unpleasantries in the early evening.

 

[52290]

I can remember the local press here in Lancashire giving details of the proposed sleeper service. You would board the train at Preston at around 8pm and wake up at 8am in the Gare du Nord for coffee and croissants. So much for that.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

But sleepers are not very popular in Europe! Ok the ones that remain are mostly booked out well in advance (and I guess the popularity is growing a bit now) but compared to the number of day trains and flights there are, the number of sleeper routes now is tiny.

They aren't popular, because they're fully booked?! That's pretty bizarre logic.

The night train market is booming. Every year new routes are launched. Paris - Vienna, Berlin to Graz and Amsterdam to Zurich last year, Hamburg to Copenhagen and Prague - Zurich this year, next year Prague - Brussels, Berlin - Paris and more. The only brake on launching new routes is that new stock being built for new services isn't ready yet.

 

[RT4038]

The only reasonable possibility is to do it at Lille and Ashford, and run into an alternative London terminal.

7am for an 8:30am arrival is the best you could hope for. In the outward direction you do the unpleasantries in the early evening.

I am not sure how getting all the passengers to alight, with their luggage, in Lille at 07h00 to go through security and immigration control, is ever going to be an attractive (and therefore commercial), proposition.

They aren't popular, because they're fully booked?! That's pretty bizarre logic.

The night train market is booming. Every year new routes are launched. Paris - Vienna, Berlin to Graz and Amsterdam to Zurich last year, Hamburg to Copenhagen and Prague - Zurich this year, next year Prague - Brussels, Berlin - Paris and more. The only brake on launching new routes is that new stock being built for new services isn't ready yet.

The trains are of low capacity, so fully booked doesn't mean lots of people. It is too early to know whether these new trains are actually economic or not.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Man, ÖBB should have probably checked out that whole profitability thing that before they spent 500 million euros on 230 new sleeper carriages...

I can't imagine any railway company would run a train which loses money when it is fully booked. The actual number of passengers is irrelevant.

 

[RT4038]

Man, ÖBB should have probably checked out that whole profitability thing that before they spent 500 million euros on 230 new sleeper carriages...

You'd like to think so, but who knows what assumptions have been made and whether they come true. It is certainly a brave move and likely dependant on a revenue stream other than passenger fares. Strange that no other railway company is doing such a thing (without large dollops of public subsidy).

I can't imagine any railway company would run a train which loses money when it is fully booked. The actual number of passengers is irrelevant.

That rather depends on the relationship between passenger fares and the costs, does it not? Any railway company may run a fully booked train (Caledonian Sleeper for instance) which loses money, possibly in the hope that in the future fares can be raised and/or costs lowered (or receiving public subsidy) ...... Which may or may not come right of course.

The actual number of passengers is only relevant in your statement of being popular. Only a vanishing small percentage of the population making long distance journeys use sleepers in Europe, so they can hardly be described as popular

 

[Roast Veg]

I am not sure how getting all the passengers to alight, with their luggage, in Lille at 07h00 to go through security and immigration control, is ever going to be an attractive (and therefore commercial), proposition.

It's approximately as attractive as through ticketing on Eurostar from Paris or Brussels.

 

[popeter45]

while It will prob never happen channel tunnel sleepers are always a great though experiment thinking about design, logistics, problems and solutions, timetabling, economics etc

 

[Austriantrain]

Again and again: if night trains are going to have a future from London, it is going to be via a change at Brussels Midi.

That, unfortunately, will exclude good connections to the South of France and Spain (and probably Italy), even though those might be the most successful, because
- SNCF does not care for night trains, and even less for those not running from Paris
- even if it were different, the change from Lille Europe to Lille Flandres would discourage most potential passengers (and Lille Europe is unlikely to have enough capacity to start night trains from there).

So you have Vienna and you might get Berlin, Zurich, Prague (all hypothetically) and maybe even some scandinavian destination at some point, if E* is willing to offer connections and through tickets.

 

[trebor79]

I am not sure how getting all the passengers to alight, with their luggage, in Lille at 07h00 to go through security and immigration control, is ever going to be an attractive (and therefore commercial), proposition.

Why would you have to do that? What's wrong with the old European model of the attendant taking your passport, wishing you good night and then handing it back to you in the morning?
Or the Slovakian model of men with machine guns and big dogs waking you in the middle of the night to check your face matches the passport and then letting you go back to sleep?
No need to get off the train at all.

 

[Austriantrain]

It is too early to know whether these new trains are actually economic or not.

They are. NightJet made a profit before Covid and there is no reason to think they don’t do now, when demand is even stronger.

There *is* some public money involved, but it’s only a small proportion since Austria can’t issue PSOs for foreign countries - but then most transport incurs some amount of public money, so it’s not a big deal.

I‘ll admit that no one knows if the new NJ sets will pay off.

 

[popeter45]

Why would you have to do that? What's wrong with the old European model of the attendant taking your passport, wishing you good night and then handing it back to you in the morning?
Or the Slovakian model of men with machine guns and big dogs waking you in the middle of the night to check your face matches the passport and then letting you go back to sleep?
No need to get off the train at all.

bags also need checking due to channel tunnel safety requirments

 

[30907]

Again and again: if night trains are going to have a future from London, it is going to be via a change at Brussels Midi.

Agree

That, unfortunately, will exclude good connections to the South of France and Spain (and probably Italy), even though those might be the most successful, because
- SNCF does not care for night trains, and even less for those not running from Paris

Not the French Govt's view though - they seem to have ambitious plans.
But Paris-Austerlitz is a problem. Perhaps SNCF could be persuaded to start all their night trains at East, us8ng the Ceinture to head south?