RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[LAX54]

Is it?

In which case why has committed Sundays been proposed to the RMT for TOCs, rather than Sundays being brought inside?!

Unless I’m missing something that is what the “offer” consists of.

Quite a few Signallers would like Sunday within the week, provided the salary was adjusted to take into account the loss of Sunday rate over the year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may well be ASLEF's take on it however many Drivers are very much against it as the union discovered in some recent changes to door operations.

Indeed. I understand it's now ASLEF that are blocking the start of crew training on the Merseyrail 777s due to the pseudo-DOO operation proposed. The RMT have I understand accepted it. I expect they will accept it given more money for the increased responsibility, but that makes the economics of the whole thing rather shaky unless you're going to have the guards doing revenue to make up for it. (There is rather a lot of casual fare dodging on Merseyrail for intermediate journeys, because the chance of the RPIs being there is close to nil, while only the central Liverpool stations plus Southport and Chester have gatelines, so that may actually make it economic - PFs is a non-starter as there'd be countless assaults, but you'd probably get away with them only selling Anytime Day Singles to stations on their network which is still a fair markup).

 

[Towers]

It may well be ASLEF's take on it however many Drivers are very much against it as the union discovered in some recent changes to door operations.

Sadly, many drivers have signed new deals over the years waving it in, possibly with the belief that it would never happen. In those cases there's precious little anyone can do to stop it. Aslef got burned during the GTR dispute playing off local agreements vs contracts, I doubt they'll be willing to put up too much resistance frankly.

 

[g492p]

It would seem from this mornings Transport Select Comity that neither the Union or the TOCs wanted DOO to be part of any deal, and it was the government who put it in last minute.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rmtunion/status/1600449188709687296?s=48&t=pBxSNrAVezrCX-Wj8fednw

 

[Towers]

Since when was that a general policy? I suspect that depends on what has been agreed locally.


A trained guard not doing doors/dispatch would still be preferable to a GTR style OBS who (in my understanding) aren’t even PTS let alone rules trained, can’t reset passcoms so are essentially no more use than a trolly host, or just another passenger.

I don't recall where I saw it, so you may well be right; ISTR it having come up at some point in the past though!

Completely agree re. OBS/TE etc grades, that isn't an acceptable future for the current guard grade IMHO. Drivers doing doors with a competent guard retained does seem an obvious compromise to the DOO issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would seem from this mornings Transport Select Comity that neither the Union or the TOCs wanted DOO to be part of any deal, and it was the government who put it in last minute.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rmtunion/status/1600449188709687296?s=48&t=pBxSNrAVezrCX-Wj8fednw

Interesting indeed. As a poisoner, or because they actually want it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

Completely agree re. OBS/TE etc grades, that isn't an acceptable future for the current guard grade IMHO. Drivers doing doors with a competent guard retained does seem an obvious compromise to the DOO issue.

As mentioned I think the Merseyrail model should be watched with considerable interest as a viable hybrid for regional services, and the Lumo steward model for InterCity. If they end up reading the Mirror* in the seat adjacent to a vestibule and just reaching round to tap their fob occasionally without really looking** then that's a failure, but if they do tickets and so bring in significant revenue that is presently lost on intermediate journeys then that is likely a success.

* The Sun, for well-known reasons, is mostly neither sold nor read on Merseyside.
** See the "role" of the second person on the Stourbridge Shuttle. If there's one service it's ridiculous isn't DOO, it's that one. It might as well be given the lack of effort by the second person when I used it recently.

 

[dk1]

It would seem from this mornings Transport Select Comity that neither the Union or the TOCs wanted DOO to be part of any deal, and it was the government who put it in last minute.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rmtunion/status/1600449188709687296?s=48&t=pBxSNrAVezrCX-Wj8fednw

Seems to be some talk that Harper had that included at the eleventh hour. Almost as if he & his department where purposely trying to scupper any possible deal.

 

[dctraindriver]

It would seem from this mornings Transport Select Comity that neither the Union or the TOCs wanted DOO to be part of any deal, and it was the government who put it in last minute.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rmtunion/status/1600449188709687296?s=48&t=pBxSNrAVezrCX-Wj8fednw

You cannot trust this govt one iota.

 

[Towers]

Interesting indeed. As a poisoner, or because they actually want it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==



As mentioned I think the Merseyrail model should be watched with considerable interest as a viable hybrid for regional services, and the Lumo steward model for InterCity. If they end up reading the Mirror* in the seat adjacent to a vestibule and just reaching round to tap their fob occasionally without really looking** then that's a failure, but if they do tickets and so bring in significant revenue that is presently lost on intermediate journeys then that is likely a success.

* The Sun, for well-known reasons, is mostly neither sold nor read on Merseyside.
** See the "role" of the second person on the Stourbridge Shuttle. If there's one service it's ridiculous isn't DOO, it's that one. It might as well be given the lack of effort by the second person when I used it recently.

Are Lumo stewards rules trained? I'm told the drivers leave the cab, press the TRTS and then crack on with self dispatch at KGX, how does that sound?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You cannot trust this govt one iota.

Regardless of our probably differing views on DOO, booking offices etc I think we can wholly agree on that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

Are Lumo stewards rules trained? I'm told the drivers leave the cab, press the TRTS and then crack on with self dispatch at KGX, how does that sound?!

I thought they were but I may be wrong.

I could see sense in a hybrid model for ICs of stewards all trained in safe evacuation (but not necessarily full guard training e.g. with regard to route learning), with one taking the role on a given service of nosing out at stations to see if there's a wheelchair user wanting to board or similar, but mostly acting in a customer service role, doing both tickets and refreshments, a bit more like air stewards. At least one would be mandatory but on some trains you may choose to have more. That's how I thought Lumo was but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[43066]

Are Lumo stewards rules trained? I'm told the drivers leave the cab, press the TRTS and then crack on with self dispatch at KGX, how does that sound?!

I understood they were, and are competent to dispatch in degraded situations (eg cameras obscured).

I’d have thought driver release guard close would be a better compromise on IC services which don’t stop often enough for dispatching to really interrupt customer service/tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d have thought driver release guard close would be a better compromise on IC services which don’t stop often enough for dispatching to really interrupt customer service/tickets.

That's how it is on all Avanti services already. How about LNER/GWR? Does the guard release on those?

I would agree it should be standard on all trains as a baseline (i.e. none being guard release). It allows a transaction to be finished without keeping people on board unnecessarily, and with ASDO doesn't really pose an additional safety risk.

 

[Towers]

That's how it is on all Avanti services already. How about LNER/GWR? Does the guard release on those?

I would agree it should be standard on all trains as a baseline (i.e. none being guard release). It allows a transaction to be finished without keeping people on board unnecessarily, and with ASDO doesn't really pose an additional safety risk.

Ho ho, have you ever stood waiting to get off of a Class 80x while the driver sets up the TMS to open the doors? There are plenty of instances where it takes just as long as a dawdling guard might!

There is surely a conversation that Aslef ought to be having with the DfT here. DOO drivers are routinely instructed, are they not, to undertake a "pause and check" routine before releasing the doors? In reality, how many do that vs those who hit the buttons as soon as the wheels stop turning? And, on newer stock where a TMS is involved, how many drivers are fiddling with it as they run into a platform, in order to avoid the otherwise inevitable very long wait as per above? Is this something Aslef considers to be an ideal situation? I rather suspect not. Incorrect door release is a pretty frequent feature of driver release operation, so clearly the situation is far from perfect. Technology is widely available now to prevent both off-platform and wrong side door release from happening. If there is to be a network-wide move to driver release, would it not be prudent for Aslef to start laying down some entirely reasonable demands for this sort of tech to become routine fitment, in order to protect both members and passengers?

 

[800001]

That's how it is on all Avanti services already. How about LNER/GWR? Does the guard release on those?

I would agree it should be standard on all trains as a baseline (i.e. none being guard release). It allows a transaction to be finished without keeping people on board unnecessarily, and with ASDO doesn't really pose an additional safety risk.

Certainly on LNER and TPE it’s the driver releases, guard closes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

Ho ho, have you ever stood waiting to get off of a Class 80x while the driver sets up the TMS to open the doors?!

There is surely a conversation that Aslef ought to be having with the DfT here. DOO drivers are routinely instructed, are they not, to undertake a "pause and check" routine before releasing the doors? In reality, how many do that vs those who hit the buttons as soon as the wheels stop turning? And, on newer stock where a TMS is involved, how many drivers are fiddling with it as they run into a platform, in order to avoid the otherwise inevitable very long wait as per above? Is this something Aslef considers to be an ideal situation? I rather suspect not. Incorrect door release is a pretty frequent feature of driver release operation, so clearly the situation is far from perfect. Technology is widely available now to prevent both off-platform and wrong side door release from happening. If there is to be a network-wide move to driver release, would it not be prudent for Aslef to start laying down some entirely reasonable demands for this sort of tech to become routine fitment, in order to protect both members and passengers?

What do you mean setting up TMS? TMs is set up prior to train commencing it’s journey.

When train arrives at a station the driver literally presses 2 buttons to release doors. That’s why doors can be released within seconds.

Only time it is longer and when a driver has to touch the TMS is if train is running on a Tempory Headcode or if addition stops etc.

For a normal door release driver does not touch TMS!

 

[Towers]

Certainly on LNER and TPE it’s the driver releases, guard closes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==


What do you mean setting up TMS? TMs is set up prior to train commencing it’s journey.

When train arrives at a station the driver literally presses 2 buttons to release doors. That’s why doors can be released within seconds.

Only time it is longer and when a driver has to touch the TMS is if train is running on a Tempory Headcode or if addition stops etc.

For a normal door release driver does not touch TMS!

Not to confirm the location and platform?! Maybe on some stock they don't, I believe it's necessary to interact with it on 80x? Either way, delays of a good few seconds are far from rare, and I assume it isn't the driver picking his nose!

 

[Watershed]

Everyone should get a pay rise.

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but giving everyone an inflationary payrise will only fuel further inflation.

A high rate of inflation is the economy's way of signalling that people need to cut back. It's a hard pill to swallow but that's the reality.

At the end of the day, it’s pretty simple - railway workers didn’t cause inflation and they do not deserve a hit on their living standards, period.

No one person, or group of people, in the UK caused the current high levels of inflation - it is a global issue.

But just because you haven't caused it and it's unfair, doesn't mean that you can be insulated from it.

There are many people who deserve an inflationary payrise, arguably everyone. But that doesn't mean that you can simply give everyone an inflationary payrise.

 

[43066]

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but giving everyone an inflationary payrise will only fuel further inflation.

This is the line selectively pedalled by the government to justify not giving certain (often low paid) public sector workers a pay rise, but completely ignored for other inflationary rises (highly paid financiers via the bonus cap, benefits, pensions - all are equally “inflationary”). And indeed there is no restriction whatsoever on the private second giving whatever pay-rises it wishes.

The current rate of inflation is widely understood to be caused primarily by global factors, is forecast to fall in due course, and it is completely dishonest to suggest a modest pay settlement of the types being accepted in other parts of the public sector will have any meaningful effect going forward (other than to continue to make those same workers poorer in real terms, of course).

 

[800001]

Not to confirm the location and platform?! Maybe on some stock they don't, I believe it's necessary to interact with it on 80x? Either way, delays of a good few seconds are far from rare, and I assume it isn't the driver picking his nose!

I was answering the person who commented about 80X stock.

No they do not need to interact with the TMS when they arrive at a station, as the train passes over balises so the train knows what platform and what station it is at, after checking cctv drivers literally press the door release button.

They only interact with the TMS to release doors in out of course situations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I/f there is to be a network-wide move to driver release, would it not be prudent for Aslef to start laying down some entirely reasonable demands for this sort of tech to become routine fitment, in order to protect both members and passengers?

ASDO, I guess? Yes, there'd be benefits of a form of balise-based ASDO being installed nationally.

 

[KM1991]

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but giving everyone an inflationary payrise will only fuel further inflation.

A high rate of inflation is the economy's way of signalling that people need to cut back. It's a hard pill to swallow but that's the reality.


No one person, or group of people, in the UK caused the current high levels of inflation - it is a global issue.

But just because you haven't caused it and it's unfair, doesn't mean that you can be insulated from it.

There are many people who deserve an inflationary payrise, arguably everyone. But that doesn't mean that you can simply give everyone an inflationary payrise.

Nope. Wage-inflation spiral is nothing but government nonsense jargon

 

[Falcon1200]

So not a particularly efficient use of staff to have Sundays inside rather than worked as overtime.

Not sure I see the logic here; If there is less demand on Sundays, fewer staff are rostered to work that day, just as was the case during my career where fewer staff were booked out on night shift, for example.

Committed Sundays provide a nice amount of overtime - they'd have to give me a several thousand pound payrise just to cover them if they wanted them in the week, otherwise I'd be on a significant pay cut.

Quite a few Signallers would like Sunday within the week, provided the salary was adjusted to take into account the loss of Sunday rate over the year.

And that for me is the huge problem of putting Sundays inside the working week: Would staff be prepared to accept a reduction in take-home pay in exchange for more time off? It would seem not (which I fully understand), which would mean the railway not just having to employ more staff, but also give them all a higher rate of pay!

 

[O L Leigh]

Not sure I see the logic here; If there is less demand on Sundays, fewer staff are rostered to work that day, just as was the case during my career where fewer staff were booked out on night shift, for example.

It's been explained before. Bringing Sundays into the working week would mean that the companies would have to employ additional staff, with all the costs associated with that, to cover the hours that were previously covered by the existing staff working them as overtime.

 

[43066]

Not sure I see the logic here; If there is less demand on Sundays, fewer staff are rostered to work that day, just as was the case during my career where fewer staff were booked out on night shift, for example.

Fair point. Albeit it always seems Sunday diagrams are the most sparsely populated in terms of work, and it is most often the day where people sit around spare doing very little due to engineering etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nope. Wage-inflation spiral is nothing but government nonsense jargon

No it isn't. See the 1970s (both Tory and Labour governments).
It led straight to the early 1980s recession, significant unemployment and more than a decade of Margaret Thatcher.
The trigger was the quadrupling of oil prices in 1973 after a Middle East war, not dissimilar to events in Ukraine today.

Having said that, I just paid £1.44/litre for petrol at Sainsburys, so inflation is not all upwards.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's been explained before. Bringing Sundays into the working week would mean that the companies would have to employ additional staff, with all the costs associated with that, to cover the hours that were previously covered by the existing staff working them as overtime.

That is what I said in the last sentence of my post!

which would mean the railway ..... having to employ more staff,

 

[43066]

No it isn't. See the 1970s (both Tory and Labour governments).
It led straight to the early 1980s recession, significant unemployment and more than a decade of Margaret Thatcher.
The trigger was the quadrupling of oil prices in 1973 after a Middle East war, not dissimilar to events in Ukraine today.

Having said that, I just paid £1.44/litre for petrol at Sainsburys, so inflation is not all upwards.

Pay rises are one factor in inflation and the consensus appears to be that the current inflation is not being caused by pay increases.

In the 1970s average pay rises were far higher than today, the government also imposed limits on private sector pay rises.
If they really believe pay rises are the problem here, this would be the way to go, rather than limiting the restraint to public sector workers (who already have less real terms spending power than a decade or so ago).

It’s propaganda, pure and simple.

 

[6Gman]

Most people in the private sector will get nothing at all this year, and probably next too. If averages are that high it's because of a few silly-high settlements.

Minimum wage increased by 6% this year. So not just at silly-high salaries.

(We also gave 6% to other staff this year.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Pay rises are one factor in inflation and the consensus appears to be that the current inflation is not being caused by pay increases.

Not yet, agreed.
But if everybody gets RPI wage increases, which is what is being demanded, you have stoked the inflation pot.
Labour did that in 1974, which is why pay rises (and things like rail fares) were up to 25%.
Bringing inflation down (so that government borrowing was affordable) led to the winter of discontent.
There were indeed pay freezes in both public and private sectors.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The major blockades and renewals planned for 24-27 December were planned and agreed up to 18 months ago. If deferred the jobs will have to be put-back to Christmas 2023, or more probably be rescheduled for some time in the spring when significant disruption will be caused.

 

[43066]

Not yet, agreed.
But if everybody gets RPI wage increases, which is what is being demanded, you have stoked the inflation pot.

Let’s be clear, though, what is being demanded by unions (in the context of a negotiation) and what is being accepted are very different things. In any case the railway dispute is primarily now to do with the proposed changes to Ts and Cs, rather than the amount offered, which has already been tabled.

It also shouldn’t escape anybody’s notice that the “winter of discontent” headlines rather suit the government at the moment. They are taking column space away from the latest embarrassing PPI corruption scandal!