Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Bletchleyite]

It's complicated, the agreement for the stabling at Birkenhead North is between TfW and Stadler. But Stadler and Vivarail had been in communication about developing the rapid charging system.

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When I spoke to Vivarail staff at last year's Rail Live they said a simulated run was done with a stop at Hawarden Bridge and the location for Deeside Parkway and the 230s was 4 minutes quicker than a 150. All the observations and times myself and others have done suggest 230s are much quicker than 150s, even climbing away from Shotton towards Hawarden.

I don't doubt that, even our diesel ones are almost Tube train quick off the mark, though sadly most of it is wasted due to glacially slow doors and so they can't keep 15x timings and run persistently a few minutes late.

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I dont think you could get two buses passing through burton point cut. Good idea though.

It isn't, it is a terrible idea. Cambridge was a rather unique case of buses fanning out to multiple destinations (though they now don't) plus a need to run on road into town.

 

[tomm]

150s will keep running on the Borderlines Bidston Wrexham then until class 230s are ready to work.

 

[Zontar]

here's the official response, and we all know the north is well behind the south!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

here's the official response, and we all know the north is well behind the south!

2222.......Two hundred years gives plenty of time to resolve matters.

 

[Pacef8]

The bidston and deeside bits will be on a barge then!

 

[Wyrleybart]

They WILL get the 230s in ASAP.

In A Siding, And Purged.

Arrange the words 'Elephant' and 'White' to make a well known phrase.

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Risk? Yes.

Likelihood, No.

It takes almost twice as long to serve the route end to end by replacement bus.

Quite simply, in the medium term, the alignment from Bidston to Shotton needs to be ripped up and converted to guided busway without further provarication. Every 15 (or even every 10) becomes a 'piece of p*ss - please forgive my forthright terminology.

Let the Welsh Govt pay for services South of Shotton, with an hourly DMU (good luck with that, more likely every 75 mins) ... with a single DMU.

One unit for the South, one for the North. What could constitute more 'levelling up' than that?

I wonder how nany passengers currently travel through Shotton. That might determine whether they would all have to change from bus to rail and vice versa.

I really cannot believe 197s would have problems maintaining existing schedules assuming they are the same based on class 150s. Surely a class 197 can outperform a 150 ?

The 230s were a bold step but obviously can no longer be supported. Sell em off and use 197s. I am sure Henry Posner III would ship them over to the USA

 

[CaergwrleKen]

I wonder how nany passengers currently travel through Shotton. That might determine whether they would all have to change from bus to rail and vice versa.

I really cannot believe 197s would have problems maintaining existing schedules assuming they are the same based on class 150s. Surely a class 197 can outperform a 150 ?

The 230s were a bold step but obviously can no longer be supported. Sell em off and use 197s. I am sure Henry Posner III would ship them over to the USA

You can have a unit that goes as fast as you like on the Bidstons but unfortunately whilst the line speeds are 40 & 50 it’s station dwell times that cause the 197 to be unsuitable, they’re built for long distance regional services not Merseyrail type stop start. The 150s work well, they are quick at stations on the doors and get up to 40/50 and back reasonably quickly. Too much computer faff with 197s. The millions wasted on 230s would have been better spent rebuilding some 150s to a more modern spec with eco engines etc.

 

[Invincible]

The 230s were a bold step but obviously can no longer be supported. Sell em off and use 197s.

It would be a kind of backwards step replacing the lightweight 230 hybrids with good torque and acceleration, with 197 diesels using hydro mechanical transmission.
The administrators seem to be looking at options to keep some Vivarail staff and support going.

Rail firm supplying trains for Transport for Wales routes in North Wales falls into administration

Vivarail has appointed administrators from Grant Thornton UK LLP who will work with Transport for Wales and Welsh Government

www.dailypost.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

2222.......Two hundred years gives plenty of time to resolve matters.

To be fair, it doesn't say nothing will be introduced before then. Just there will be new trains in 200 years time, which is fair!

 

[Greybeard33]

It would be a kind of backwards step replacing the lightweight 230 hybrids with good torque and acceleration, with 197 diesels using hydro mechanical transmission.

The 197, like the 195 and 196, is a Diesel Mechanical Multiple Unit (DMMU). It has a ZF Ecolife transmission with a 6-speed gearbox, which is much more efficient than the Voith 2-speed hydraulic transmission of the 150. Combined with a 375kW engine under every car, versus the 213kW of the 150, this gives much more sprightly acceleration, although I do not know how it matches up against the hybrid 230.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be a kind of backwards step replacing the lightweight 230 hybrids with good torque and acceleration, with 197 diesels using hydro mechanical transmission.

It would indeed NOT BE a backward step, as to the best of my knowledge, the Class 230 units have never run a commercial passenger service on the Borderlands Line.

 

[Invincible]

The 230s would have been the first operational battery and diesel hybrid trains in the UK, so worth persevering with the concept if new owners can be found for Vivarail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 230s would have been the first operational battery and diesel hybrid trains in the UK, so worth persevering with the concept if new owners can be found for Vivarail.

It will be interesting to see how well the administrators of Vivarail manage to realise any of the assets.

 

[tomuk]

The 230s would have been the first operational battery and diesel hybrid trains in the UK, so worth persevering with the concept if new owners can be found for Vivarail.

They wouldn't have been the first see the Hybrid 168 in service now with Chiltern. If you want to Hybridise any of the 168/170/171/172 Turbostars or 19x CAF units just get your cheque book out to MTU\Rolls Royce. Or equally send your money to Stadler and get a 231\756 Flirt as soon to be introduced in the Valleys. Other options are available from Alstom and Hitachi too. VivaRail offer nothing special apart from some 2nd Hand D78s.

 

[D365]

It would indeed NOT BE a backward step, as to the best of my knowledge, the Class 230 units have never run a commercial passenger service on the Borderlands Line.

The point is that going from diesel-battery hybrids back to ’straight’ diesels would be a significant regression. Not least that the mechanical performance of a battery-electric vehicle gives a far superior rate of acceleration.

 

[Greybeard33]

The point is that going from diesel-battery hybrids back to ’straight’ diesels would be a significant regression. Not least that the mechanical performance of a battery-electric vehicle gives a far superior rate of acceleration.

Do you have real world acceleration performance figures for the TfW 230s to substantiate that claim? The Northern Class 195 DMUs can achieve 0.83m/s/s according to Wikipedia, and I imagine the performance of the TfW Class 197s will be similar.

 

[Pacco]

The year is 2223 and armageddon end times are here. There will be cockroaches, Ant and Dec on the telly, and Class 150s all over the North, Wales and the South West.

Oh, and the Bidston 230s will be six months away.

What I don't understand how we have people saying that they will definitely never happen, and others saying they will. Is this just competing stakeholders briefing their own agenda?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The point is that going from diesel-battery hybrids back to ’straight’ diesels would be a significant regression. Not least that the mechanical performance of a battery-electric vehicle gives a far superior rate of acceleration.

But they don't presently have diesel-battery hybrids, at least not in public service and what there may be in future is substantially delayed. You cannot regress from somewhere you were never at.

 

[Invincible]

But they don't presently have diesel-battery hybrids, at least not in public service and what there may be in future is substantially delayed. You cannot regress from somewhere you were never at.

But there are battery diesel hybrids in Europe.
Vivarail has got to the point where the 230s could enter service.
Surprised new diesel mechanical transmission trains are still being ordered in the UK, but the current government target to stop using diesel is 2050.
Ideally someone should be able to buy part of Vivarail and progress the work Vivarail started.

 

[jon0844]

2222.......Two hundred years gives plenty of time to resolve matters.

Wow. Even Bombardier (Alstom) could probably get a train built and running without issues in that timeframe.

Maybe.

 

[D365]

Do you have real world acceleration performance figures for the TfW 230s to substantiate that claim? The Northern Class 195 DMUs can achieve 0.83m/s/s according to Wikipedia, and I imagine the performance of the TfW Class 197s will be similar.

None in the public domain, but it’s not a difficult to anticipate that the peak acceleration of a diesel-battery hybrid will outperform the peak acceleration of a diesel-mechanical unit. Your best like-for-like would be the Marston Vale 230s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just looked at the "Vivarail News" part of their website. Nothing at all mentioned about the administration.

It was finally added to the website new page on 7th December giving a brief notification that Grant Thornton had been appointed administrators.

 

[EngFocus]

None in the public domain, but it’s not a difficult to anticipate that the peak acceleration of a diesel-battery hybrid will outperform the peak acceleration of a diesel-mechanical unit. Your best like-for-like would be the Marston Vale 230s.

Vivarail said a a run with a simulated stop at the proposal Deeside and station and Hawarden Bridge was 4 minutes quick than a Class 150 working the current service.

Myself and others have done timings from the platform and they do appear to be markedly quicker than 150s, which shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

From the cl197 discuss it has been suggested that even they struggle to keep to time on the Wrexham-Bidston line, which does surprise me. But if true it means it's imperative that 230s enter service on the line.

 

[D821]

It is sad to see the 230s just sat in the sidings, particularly after several weeks of successful testing and driver training. Still, I suppose it would have been more disruptive if they had put them into service shortly before Vivarail going into administration.

 

[Wyrleybart]

They wouldn't have been the first see the Hybrid 168 in service now with Chiltern. If you want to Hybridise any of the 168/170/171/172 Turbostars or 19x CAF units just get your cheque book out to MTU\Rolls Royce. Or equally send your money to Stadler and get a 231\756 Flirt as soon to be introduced in the Valleys. Other options are available from Alstom and Hitachi too. VivaRail offer nothing special apart from some 2nd Hand D78s.

I don't think they are quite the same "hybrids" Tom. AIUI the 230 design was for the four gensets in the centre car to charge the batteries. The unit runs as a battery electric train with the traction motor current supplied from the batteries. I believe the theory is that if the batteries are topped up, also from regen braking, then the diesels shut down - also doing so at some selected geo fenced locations where lineside hostility is an issue. So theoretically the TfW 230 operates as a "self powered" battery class 484 when the diesels aren't running.

AFAIK the Chiltern 168 is not able to power itself without any engines running - AIUI the batteries are not full traction batteries supplying the primary source of traction power.

Feel free to correct me

 

[D365]

VivaRail offer nothing special apart from some 2nd Hand D78s.

Apart from 'proper' diesel-battery hybrid technology and a patented fast charge system...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Apart from 'proper' diesel-battery hybrid technology and a patented fast charge system...

Would the administrators to raise any finance from the sale of this particular company asset?

 

[D365]

Would the administrators to raise any finance from the sale of this particular company asset?

It’s better discussed in the dedicated Vivarail thread(s), but yes I would imagine that this expertise could prove valuable to a rolling stock engineering firm.

 

[tomuk]

I don't think they are quite the same "hybrids" Tom. AIUI the 230 design was for the four gensets in the centre car to charge the batteries. The unit runs as a battery electric train with the traction motor current supplied from the batteries. I believe the theory is that if the batteries are topped up, also from regen braking, then the diesels shut down - also doing so at some selected geo fenced locations where lineside hostility is an issue. So theoretically the TfW 230 operates as a "self powered" battery class 484 when the diesels aren't running.

AFAIK the Chiltern 168 is not able to power itself without any engines running - AIUI the batteries are not full traction batteries supplying the primary source of traction power.

Feel free to correct me

No the MTU Hybrid power packs can power the train without the diesel running they can arrive and leave stations on battery only.

incorporates an mtu diesel engine which will fulfil future EU Stage V emissions regulations, plus an electric machine, which can be used either as an electric motor or generator, and an mtu EnergyPack battery system, which stores the energy recovered during braking. This enables very low-noise, emissions-free battery-only electric operation in urban areas and around stations.

quote from Rolls Royce press release - https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/o...rney-in-the-uk-with-mtu-hybrid-powerpack.aspx

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It’s better discussed in the dedicated Vivarail thread(s), but yes I would imagine that this expertise could prove valuable to a rolling stock engineering firm.

We did have a single master Vivarail thread many years ago on this website, but the forum staff felt it was too unwieldy with too many different items being discussed.

I opened this particular thread in September 2019 specifically to cover the introduction of Vivarail traction on the Borderlands Line.