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Cyclists - your experiences on the road

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Bletchleyite

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It's funny how in many places the bus drivers are, on average, better drivers than car drivers, while taxi drivers are, on average, worse than non-taxi car drivers

Time/money pressure probably has to do with it. Bus drivers are to a timetable, but if they're late they're late. Taxi drivers are pressured to drive aggressively to get the job done and find another. There's also a higher degree of training needed to drive a bus.
 
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Bikeman78

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I agree that riding in a bus lane is more pleasant than riding in a car lane, mostly because most bus drivers seem way more capable at operating vehicles than many car drivers.
However, between stops the bus should be faster than most people on a bike, but the bus stops more often. This can lead to repeated catch-ups / both modes travelling at the speed of whichever one is slowest, which really isn't ideal.

In addition, some people will be scared off from cycling by having to coexist with rather large vehicles in the same lane. As I said, I see why this was introduced in some places, but
I agree that the leap frog scenario happens sometimes but it doesn't really bother me. As you say, most buses are driven sensibly.

Sounds like your council needs to improve some things (for starters, there should be a button to press as well for cyclists, because I don't think there is, as of yet, a sufficiently reliable technology in road use for detecting bikes.) And clearly, having bike paths cross the road, especiially repeatedly, should really be avoided.
I'm not holding my breath. I dread to think how much they have wasted on a sub optimal bike lane. I don't see what problem it is trying to solve. To get to it from most of the housing estates within Cardiff, one has to cycle a considerable distance along roads without cycle lanes. Perhaps it is part of a plan for a city-wide network but there hasn't been any progress for several months. Unless there is work happening in other parts of town that I don't visit.

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The problem with cycling in many bus lanes is the black cabs which seem to speed and pass far too close.
That's easy, ride far enough away from the kerb to force them into the next lane.

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Time/money pressure probably has to do with it. Bus drivers are to a timetable, but if they're late they're late. Taxi drivers are pressured to drive aggressively to get the job done and find another. There's also a higher degree of training needed to drive a bus.
That makes sense. If the bus timetable goes into meltdown, it's not because of a few cyclists, but the thousands of cars getting in the way, especially at this time of year. The resulting gaps in service mean that a bus will not be following a cyclist for long before it has to stop and pick up lots of passengers.
 

ashkeba

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That's easy, ride far enough away from the kerb to force them into the next lane.
Does not work. The bad ones drive far too close to my back wheel (and honk!) and then pass with as little as possible of their cab in the next lane. If I then move left to create safe gap again, they move left to punish.
 

py_megapixel

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There is the problem that there is generally no safe way for cyclists to pass buses at stops. Can't pass on the left as the bus has pulled right up to the kerb to let people on and off, can't pass on the right while staying in the lane as even where there is enough width there would be no escape if the bus pulled out, and can't pass in the next lane as car drivers generally won't let cyclists out.
 

telstarbox

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On an otherwise good commute I had two suicidal overtakes on consecutive blind bends this morning. In both cases there were oncoming vehicles who had to slow down - not good!
 

Trainbike46

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On an otherwise good commute I had two suicidal overtakes on consecutive blind bends this morning. In both cases there were oncoming vehicles who had to slow down - not good!
When these happen I always wonder, is it that the idea of waiting behind a cyclist until you have visibility of the oncoming lane so unacceptable to these drivers, or do they overtake everything with zero visibility?


Though the ability of drivers does seem to vary between areas. Here in Belfast they seem so incapable that I gave up on cycling entirely.
 

py_megapixel

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When these happen I always wonder, is it that the idea of waiting behind a cyclist until you have visibility of the oncoming lane so unacceptable to these drivers, or do they overtake everything with zero visibility?

I think it's just because people are appalling at anticipating what might happen ahead.

They are even terrible at knowing what they are going to do in a few seconds. Why do people overtake just before they turn off the road? It increases risk massively for a minuscule journey time saving.
 

SCH117X

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In general, the implementation of the cycle lane has been poor. There is a separate green phase at traffic lights. There are sensors so if there's no bike, they skip that phase. The problem is that the sensors are often not set to detect a bike that stops at the line.
Theres a set on NCN67 as it enters Harrogate from the south where my experience is that they will only change if two cyclists are stopped one behind the other. Not much use when you are on your own. Crazy thing is there is a push button on the top of a pole for horse riders to push, out of reach of a cyclist. The bridleway that NCN67 uses makes a crossroads so I wait for the facing traffic to clear, or be obviously all turning left, and cross. Got caught out a week or two back as the lights to either side went green as I started to cross; a car driver kindly gave me right of way. Consequently complained to the local highway authority who were completely unhelpful originally saying I had to approach the parish council for them to put forward a highway improvement. Sent a messge back that there is no parish council and asking for a push button is hardly a highway improvement. Then got confirmation that the matter had been passed to the local office but could I pleae wait for the green light. A further message sent pointing out that was the whole issue - never changes to green for a single cyclist. Awaits any further communication.........
 

mike57

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or do they overtake everything with zero visibility?
Unfortunately yes.

I take a daily lunchtime ride for exercise, I am of an age where my knee joints have exceeded their design life, and I find cycling and swimming are two exercises that I can do without aggravating the joints. Most of the daily ride is on quiet country roads, if I see 4 or 5 cars its busy, but at one point i have to cross a busy A road. The cross roads are notorious, with several accidents and one fatality over recent years. Just past the cross roads on the main road is a hidden dip, the road is marked with a solid white line approaching the dip, but drivers routinely ignore it, overtaking because they either think they can see, or just dont care. There was also another fatality about 200yds away on the other side of the dip as well. Inappropriate overtaking has been a factor in the majority of accidents at this spot.

There is frequently a 'safety' camera van in the middle of a long wide straight section with good vision about 4 or 5 miles away, which is about revenue not safety as the hazards are minimal on the section where they sit, but the dangerous bit is left to take its toll.
 

adamedwards

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In Sweeden in persuit of zero road deaths, double white lines are getting bollards along the centre line to discourage over taking more forcefully. I get it all the time on Coopers Green Lane, Hatfield. 60 mph limit (should be 40 max), blind corners and sharp turns into side roads. The number of crazy drivers overtaking where they will be hit front on is horrible. (66% of all traffic in Herts breaks the speed limit according to work done by the county council.)
 

Bletchleyite

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In Sweeden in persuit of zero road deaths, double white lines are getting bollards along the centre line to discourage over taking more forcefully. I get it all the time on Coopers Green Lane, Hatfield. 60 mph limit (should be 40 max), blind corners and sharp turns into side roads. The number of crazy drivers overtaking where they will be hit front on is horrible. (66% of all traffic in Herts breaks the speed limit according to work done by the county council.)

In the Netherlands dual carriageways with one lane each way, physically preventing overtaking, are very common in urban areas, but only really work with cycle segregation or 20km/h limits.
 

adamedwards

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Cycle segregation is of course essential, as you rightly say. Herts has so little infrastructure and until now has had a policy of no cycle paths outside urban areas. That is changing, but there's then no money to actually build anything unless developers contribute or the UK govt hands out £300,000 for the whole county, as happened this year! We have some crazy gaps in the network and some towns with nothing at all. Lots of stories on http://www.welhatcycling.org.uk if anyone is interested.
 

Bletchleyite

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Cycle segregation is of course essential, as you rightly say. Herts has so little infrastructure and until now has had a policy of no cycle paths outside urban areas. That is changing, but there's then no money to actually build anything unless developers contribute or the UK govt hands out £300,000 for the whole county, as happened this year! We have some crazy gaps in the network and some towns with nothing at all. Lots of stories on http://www.welhatcycling.org.uk if anyone is interested.

Notably this approach requires not only cycle segregation but mandatory cycle segregation, which UK law doesn't properly provide for. A stubborn cyclist who prefers the road but can't sustain 20 or 30mph would otherwise potentially cause serious delays to e.g. the bus service on the same road (I care not too much about the cars :) ).

As a cyclist I'd be more than happy to be legally required to use paths which were to full Dutch standards (including e.g. priority at junctions, which means they aren't really slower to use than the road unless you're some sort of muppet* going for a Strava segment), but I know some of the more stubborn campaigners wouldn't.

* I have a massive issue with urban Strava segments, as they take safety away from being the priority of road users and encourage dangerously aggressive road use. Strava, if a responsible business, should be actively removing them from any road or path that isn't subject to national speed limit plus any single track road.
 

mike57

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I have a massive issue with urban Strava segments, as they take safety away from being the priority of road users and encourage dangerously aggressive road use. Strava, if a responsible business, should be actively removing them from any road or path that isn't subject to national speed limit plus any single track road.
I think the problem with Strava and public roads is that it promotes cycling as a competetive sport rather than as a means of getting from A - B or as a way of getting some gentle(ish) exercise, i.e. riding within the conditions and paying attention to your surroundings. So I would go further and say Strave segments are not compatible with public roads shared with other traffic, or shared cycle paths. Problem is I am going to wipe a whole culture at a stroke.

At a personal level I think Strava also introduces some serious security concerns, but they are off topic.

I am fortunate, I can cycle 5 miles out and 5 back on quiet roads and perhaps meet a dozen cars and the odd tractor. Others are less fortunate. Different UK cities and towns have taken very different approaches to cycling, in my area York is cycle friendly, as is Hull to a point, but although Scarborough is smaller its a cycling nightmare apart from the Cinder Track to Whitby.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the problem with Strava and public roads is that it promotes cycling as a competetive sport rather than as a means of getting from A - B or as a way of getting some gentle(ish) exercise, i.e. riding within the conditions and paying attention to your surroundings. So I would go further and say Strave segments are not compatible with public roads shared with other traffic, or shared cycle paths. Problem is I am going to wipe a whole culture at a stroke.

Cycling as a competitive sport is great, but you're not allowed to drive a car competitively on an open public road, and I struggle to justify in my mind the idea that cycling should be permitted in such circumstances either. That said, a race is probably less of an issue than some nutter going for a Strava segment through a busy area, because discussions happen with the Police first, then there's cautionary signage and marshalling too - it's a much more controlled environment.

(That said I'd also outright ban any form of competitive cycling on particularly dangerous single track roads because that really does result in dangerous activity. One notable experience I had driving the Hardknott/Wrynose involved a triathlon over there, and the competitors were acting VERY dangerously, weaving in and out of cars which were waiting to allow other cars to pass as is necessary on that sort of road and flying round blind bends and over blind hills. It is better that these roads are closed if used more than incidentally.)
 

PeterY

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Cycle segregation is of course essential, as you rightly say. Herts has so little infrastructure and until now has had a policy of no cycle paths outside urban areas. That is changing, but there's then no money to actually build anything unless developers contribute or the UK govt hands out £300,000 for the whole county, as happened this year! We have some crazy gaps in the network and some towns with nothing at all. Lots of stories on http://www.welhatcycling.org.uk if anyone is interested.
At least in Herts we've plenty of disused railways and the canals.:D What segregated cycle routes we do have are very badly thought out. :'(
 

Haywain

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At least in Herts we've plenty of disused railways and the canals.
Mostly of little use for urban cycling and utterly useless during the hours of darkness due to lack of lighting.
 

Ediswan

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Mostly of little use for urban cycling and utterly useless during the hours of darkness due to lack of lighting.
Not utterly useless. I know plenty of cyclists who will happily use unlit disused railways and canal tow paths after dark. They use their own lights.
 

Haywain

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Not utterly useless. I know plenty of cyclists who will happily use unlit disused railways and canal tow paths after dark. They use their own lights.
Useless because there are plenty who won’t. Women travelling alone, for example. The people you refer to would probably be happy to ride on roads at night too, and if that’s the case the cycle facility hasn’t enabled more people to cycle.
 

telstarbox

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Personally I think canal paths are worse than busy roads for cycling. They're narrow especially at overbridges and when it's daylight or good weather it doesn't work sharing them with pedestrians.
 

Ediswan

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Useless because there are plenty who won’t. Women travelling alone, for example. The people you refer to would probably be happy to ride on roads at night too, and if that’s the case the cycle facility hasn’t enabled more people to cycle.
Limited usefulness, not useless.
 

Haywain

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Limited usefulness, not useless.
If cycle facilities are only used by experienced, confident cyclists I don’t see them as being useful for anyone other than motorists. Money spent on such facilities should be aiming to get more people on bikes otherwise they are not fit for purpose.
 

Ediswan

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If cycle facilities are only used by experienced, confident cyclists I don’t see them as being useful for anyone other than motorists. Money spent on such facilities should be aiming to get more people on bikes otherwise they are not fit for purpose.
Disused railways and towpaths are mixed use, they have benefits other than encouraging cycling.
 

JohnMcL7

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Disused railways and towpaths are mixed use, they have benefits other than encouraging cycling.
That's true and I'd say they also encourage cycling as well, experienced cyclists are more likely to to have the confidence to deal with busy roads where less experienced cyclists won't. I did a 75 mile cycle through the canal towpaths in Manchester and the surrounding area and there's a large variety of people using them and it was most definitely not only 'experienced confident' cyclists.
 

mike57

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Disused railways and towpaths are mixed use, they have benefits other than encouraging cycling.
Having done a lot of cycling over the years I would consider towpaths and disused railways somewhat differently in term of less experienced cyclists

Disused Railways dont tend to have the hazards that towpath have, Tow paths tend to be narrower, one false move in the wrong direction and you get wet or worse, and you get some interesting obstacles when you encounter over bridges. The surface also tend to be less bike friendly

For less experienced riders disused railways are probably the easiest riding, even if unlit and dark decent lights make them straightforwards as long as there are no personal safety issues.

I think the biggest issue for the inexperienced is that there will be a good traffic free route most of the way between two places, but then the last leg will suddenly be on busy and unsuitable roads
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the biggest issue for the inexperienced is that there will be a good traffic free route most of the way between two places, but then the last leg will suddenly be on busy and unsuitable roads

I'm not inexperienced but the reason I never cycle to my friend's house in Buckingham is that by the most direct routes there's no avoiding a horrible section on the A421 or A422 at the end. There is an off road route but the first part is on a bumpy, muddy path (Route 51) and the second part up a massive hill, and involves doing two sides of a triangle. If Route 51 was tarmacced I might be more likely to put up with the longer route, that said.

You'd only need to build 2.5km of Redway-standard path alongside the 421 from the junction for the minor road at Thornborough, over the original bridge and to the presently closed turning towards Manor Farm* to make cycling between Buckingham and MK a lot more pleasant (as the rest of it can be done on minor roads and Redways) and nothing at all is in the way of doing so. It wouldn't be a tootle in the park for Old Mrs Miggins, but I reckon you would get semi-serious commuter cyclists between MK and Buckingham and vice versa** in this case - on a decent road bike it wouldn't be too slow - the present fact that the only sensible off road route is via bumpy Route 51 prevents a road bike being used.

Indeed it's a shame that Buckingham wasn't brought into MK as part of the unitary-isation of Buckinghamshire. MK is going to expand that way (though not actually reach Buckingham for a long time), and if it was part of MK I don't in the slightest bit doubt that said Redway would get built. And it's no more ridiculous than Olney being in MK.

* Great little farm shop cafe type thing there by the way, would be a good cycling destination for tea and cake! It's basically a less-celebrity and more reasonably-priced version of Clarkson's wotsit.

** Buckingham is small but I don't doubt some of the academics at the university live in MK as Buckingham is rather expensive. Plus you'll have people going the other way for work and to access the railway stations.
 
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Haywain

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Disused railways and towpaths are mixed use, they have benefits other than encouraging cycling.
They might well be mixed use and easy riding but in the majority of cases they were provided by money being spent on them and in many cases they do not provide urban routes in the way that roadside cycle paths do. The other benefits are not relevant here as this is a thread about cycling.
For less experienced riders disused railways are probably the easiest riding, even if unlit and dark decent lights make them straightforwards as long as there are no personal safety issues.
The problem is that for many people, especially women, an unlit path is a personal safety issue.
 

JohnMcL7

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Limited usefulness, not useless.
Exactly, it's so strange that people hold cycling to this impossibly high standard that doesn't apply to any other form of transport. In my experience, separate paths from the roads even unlit do a much better job of encouraging people to cycle whereas experienced cyclists will put up with traffic in a way inexperienced ones won't.
 

Bletchleyite

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Exactly, it's so strange that people hold cycling to this impossibly high standard that doesn't apply to any other form of transport. In my experience, separate paths from the roads even unlit do a much better job of encouraging people to cycle whereas experienced cyclists will put up with traffic in a way inexperienced ones won't.

One of the main issues with cycling is that there are very much several camps:

(1. Leisure cyclists. Going out for a ride on their Halfords BSO* with the kids, probably drove to the park to do so. Unlikely to use cycling as a mode of transport so probably not worth worrying about, and even if on the pavement likely to be going slowly so little danger.)

2. Dutch style utility cyclists. Typically ride something Dutch looking or perhaps one of Decathlon's excellent B.Twin hybrids which have a wider range of gears but otherwise are comfortable sit-up-and-beg machines. Would use an off road path where provided as long as it's not a sea of rocks. Might use the canal but equally might fear falling in. In London may well use a "Sadiq cycle". Dressed in normal clothes and quite possibly not wearing a helmet.

3. Fast utility/commuter cyclists. Typically ride a high priced road bike (£1K plus), ride a longer distance and at speed and wear Lycra and a helmet, and these days often carry a cycle cam. Prefer the road even if there is a path, and are typically extremely aggressive in their riding style, often arguing that it's the only way to be safe, but in reality these are often no more accommodative of other road users (including vulnerable ones like pedestrians) than white van man is. Almost always testosterone-filled males under about 50. This is the group that often, due to their typically aggressive cycling style, get the moniker "Lycra louts".

(4. Hobby/club cyclists. Typically ride expensive road bikes on country lanes. Confident in traffic, but unlikely to be found in cities other than on the most direct route out, though most drive to their chosen cycling area. Generally fast but not aggressive - more often than not helpful to other traffic, e.g. a peloton will often wave drivers past if they can see for certain it is clear to overtake. Not really relevant to most of this discussion.)

(5. Mountain bikers, but these mostly drive to the trails so aren't relevant at all).

2 and 3 are the main ones relevant in a city, and there is a massive conflict between the two. The former like dedicated provision like the Dutch approach or the MK Redways, and don't mind it being a bit slower as long as it's safe. They might be confident in traffic (as they may well also be in group 4 on a weekend with another bike) but they aren't typically aggressive, and so will rarely choose the road. The latter wish to ride at speed on the road and are more interested in an approach that keeps cyclists there but disadvantages other road users (including pedestrians) to their gain. Unfortunately it isn't easy, other than in a total new-build area, to provide well for both - a wider road is better for group 3, whereas a narrower road with a dedicated facility alongside is best for group 2, and if you want to add good quality urban pedestrian-oriented safety features like central reservations with one lane each way you may even have to ban group 2 from the road which they really don't like.

I am not quite sure how you square this circle, but my view would be that (2) should be prioritised in any decision in urban areas, as that has the most potential for taking cars off the road.

* Bike Shaped Object, a common insult for the very cheap "mountain bikes" sold by the likes of Halfords and supermarkets, typically priced well below £100, very heavy, poor brakes, cheap jumpy gears etc. These "bikes" do more for putting people off cycling than any traffic does, and most cycling advocates wish they'd go away as a result. Students and the likes often put up with them, but if Old Granny Wiggins gets one she'll be reaching for her bus pass.
 
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JohnMcL7

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I don't find any of what you've said is based on reality, I've a wide range of cycling friends from all the different groups you've mentioned and they all get on really well with each other and done a number of cycles where everyone across your different 'conflicted' groups have come together in support of cycling. Everyone just wants better cycling facilities all round, it's really one of the great parts of cycling that it isn't the way you describe.
 
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