TfGM Bus franchising

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I only caught the tail-end of the news about something "not being signed off". Is this something that will affect the area that is said to be the first area in which the bus franchising will take place or something totally different?

 

[daodao]

I only caught the tail-end of the news about something "not being signed off". Is this something that will affect the area that is said to be the first area in which the bus franchising will take place or something totally different?

Are you referring to the BBC report available at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62336330 ?

Greater Manchester cheaper bus fare plan not signed off yet, mayor says​

Cheaper fares for buses in Greater Manchester which were set to start in September still have not been signed off, the region's mayor has confirmed.
Andy Burnham announced in March that fares would be capped at £2 for adults and £1 for children when the network comes under public control in 2023.
In June, he said he hoped to bring in the cap a year early but the plan requires agreement from bus operators.
The mayor said he was "very optimistic" that it could start in September.
Under the new system, single journeys on any local bus would be capped at £2 for adults and £1 for children while multi-operator day tickets would cost £5.
The Labour politician said the new fare structure was not "signed, sealed and delivered", but he was "absolutely determined" it will be in place by September.
He told BBC Radio Manchester that he was "very optimistic we'll be able to do the right deal in the next couple of weeks to say that it starts in early September".
He said he hoped the new flat fare structure, which will be subsidised by a government grant, will become permanent.
"Of all the things I've done as mayor so far, I think this is the biggest in terms of the impact it's going to have on the lives of people in Greater Manchester," he added.
"I am absolutely determined that that will be in in September.
"I can't tell you the date today, but I can look you in the eye and say that is coming."
Operators Stagecoach and Rotala lost a legal challenge against the decision to bring Greater Manchester buses back under public control.

Like all socialists, Burnham likes spending other people's money, as capping fares at this level will require massive subsidies from Greater Manchester council tax payers. If bus operators are not remunerated adequately, they are likely to slash services, as Stagecoach Manchester have already indicated they will do.

 

[Goldfish62]

Are you referring to the BBC report available at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62336330 ?

Like all socialists, Burnham likes spending other people's money, as capping fares at this level will require massive subsidies from Greater Manchester council tax payers. If bus operators are not remunerated adequately, they are likely to slash services, as Stagecoach Manchester have already indicated they will do.

While it's perfectly acceptable for the government to borrow billions from the Bank of England to fund huge profits made by corporations out of Covid and then expect ordinary taxpayers to repay it.

 

[johncrossley]

Like all socialists, Burnham likes spending other people's money, as capping fares at this level will require massive subsidies from Greater Manchester council tax payers. If bus operators are not remunerated adequately, they are likely to slash services, as Stagecoach Manchester have already indicated they will do.

That means you believe almost all politicians in cities in developed countries outside the UK are socialist, including the USA, as almost all cities in developed countries have heavily subsidised public transport.

 

[Deerfold]

Are you referring to the BBC report available at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62336330 ?

Like all socialists, Burnham likes spending other people's money, as capping fares at this level will require massive subsidies from Greater Manchester council tax payers. If bus operators are not remunerated adequately, they are likely to slash services, as Stagecoach Manchester have already indicated they will do.

Is this like the Conservative's plan to cap bus fares at £2?

Bus fares to cost no more than £2 in new cap on all local and regional journeys

The government has come under growing pressure to fall into line with other countries, who have slashed the price of public transport following energy and fuel price hikes

www.mirror.co.uk

A £2 cap on all local and regional bus journeys is set to come into force from October in England to help tackle soaring fuel prices.

The six-month move will help cut the cost of travel during autumn and winter after the crisis at the pumps provoked an in-depth study by Britain's competition regulator.


The bargain rates will also include long-hail cross-country trips of up to 80 miles and lasting more than three hours.

Downing Street's decision, which has been in process since April, is intended to address a long-standing issue of rural bus travel being more expensive and less frequent than in London.

Are they socialist, too?

 

[Goldfish62]

Bolton/Wigan area franchise tender results to be announced on 16 December I am told.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bolton/Wigan area franchise tender results to be announced on 16 December I am told.

That is correct

Nine bidders in line for first GM bus franchises

www.passengertransport.co.uk

Interesting days for everyone and especially Rotala and Stagecoach

 

[Goldfish62]

That is correct

Nine bidders in line for first GM bus franchises

www.passengertransport.co.uk

Interesting days for everyone and especially Rotala and Stagecoach

Just to add that Standstill has commenced so the bidders already know the outcome.

 

[Murray J]

Attached is a First Glasgow document that's been circulated on the firstbus enthusiasts Facebook group, the notable bit for this thread is 32 E200MMCs due to head to Manchester from Glasgow, quite possibly meaning First have gained quite a bit in the tenders.

 

[507020]

That is correct

Nine bidders in line for first GM bus franchises

www.passengertransport.co.uk

Interesting days for everyone and especially Rotala and Stagecoach

Where is the full list of routes and numbers included in the 11 new franchises for the Wigan and Bolton areas and which of the 9 companies bidded for each?

Attached is a First Glasgow document that's been circulated on the firstbus enthusiasts Facebook group, the notable bit for this thread is 32 E200MMCs due to head to Manchester from Glasgow, quite possibly meaning First have gained quite a bit in the tenders. Moderators feel free to delete this if it breaks any rules or is dubious in any way.

Are the vehicles and depots not to be compulsory purchased by TfGM and leased back to the franchisee? The 32 E200 MMCs may have been purchased from First by TfGM to form part of the publicly owned fleet. I didn’t think vehicles were being provided by franchisees.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just to add that Standstill has commenced so the bidders already know the outcome.

I know you know but to the uninitiated, public sector bids have a 10 day "standstill" period between the award being notified to the lucky recipient(s) and the public announcement of the award. This is to allow any challenges to be raised by the parties involved in the process.

Attached is a First Glasgow document that's been circulated on the firstbus enthusiasts Facebook group, the notable bit for this thread is 32 E200MMCs due to head to Manchester from Glasgow, quite possibly meaning First have gained quite a bit in the tenders. Moderators feel free to delete this if it breaks any rules or is dubious in any way.

I don't know if they would risk having such information coming out ahead of an award. First Oldham also has a batch of 30 2013 e300s and 4 Eclipses - could be replacements for those.

 

[Volvodart]

It was said that they were only going if First won a franchise.

 

[Murray J]

I don't know if they would risk having such information coming out ahead of an award. First Oldham also has a batch of 30 2013 e300s and 4 Eclipses - could be replacements for those.

Perhaps but I would've thought the E300s still have some years in them in Manchester, same with the B7RLEs which are actually newer than the E300s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where is the full list of routes and numbers included in the 11 new franchises for the Wigan and Bolton areas and which of the 9 companies bidded for each?

Are the vehicles and depots not to be compulsory purchased by TfGM and leased back to the franchisee? The 32 E200 MMCs may have been purchased from First by TfGM to form part of the publicly owned fleet. I didn’t think vehicles were being provided by franchisees.

You're certainly not going to find out who bid for what. That information is never released.

The whole depot issue is a minefield and a potential massive hole that TfGM have dug for themselves. Watch this space.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are the vehicles and depots not to be compulsory purchased by TfGM and leased back to the franchisee? The 32 E200 MMCs may have been purchased from First by TfGM to form part of the publicly owned fleet. I didn’t think vehicles were being provided by franchisees.

That seems plausible. Even if TfGM aren't owning the buses, they will presumably want them at the very least repainted into yellow, and possibly also brought up to a higher spec internally (e.g. fitment of PIS and possibly new seat coverings) in time for the September launch.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That seems plausible. Even if TfGM aren't owning the buses, they will presumably want them at the very least repainted into yellow, and possibly also brought up to a higher spec internally (e.g. fitment of PIS and possibly new seat coverings) in time for the September launch.

It seems strange that all matters appertaining to the new system management have not been totally made clear once the matter was launched. Ownership of the buses, depots, bus livery, etc, should all be in the public domain and available to be made public.

 

[Goldfish62]

Ownership of the buses, depots, bus livery, etc, should all be in the public domain and available to be made public.

Why? Why on earth would bus and depot ownership be of any interest or relevance to the public?

And surely you can't have missed all the in-your-face media coverage of the livery?

 

[ic31420]

Rotala are a commercial organisation and judge everything by a £ sign. I'd be shocked.

As for a time limited property offer... We'll give you millions but you've got to be out in 8 weeks? Commercial property sales are always more protracted than that.

And CPOs even longer with a long list of things to satisfy and do even before you can get anywhere near a CPO completion. Even with a willing "victim" they can delay the process many many months.

Are TFGM on the list of "Local Authorities" able to make CPO?

If the bus cos or the maintenance companies are willing to lease the facilities to TFGM that may "do their knees" right at the first step as it takes away "the compelling public interest" argument for acquisition, TFGM and LA leases great many facilities so why not these.

Do the bus cos own the units? Are they leased does another company own the unit and do the work on a contract basis, even if it is wholly owned.

It's an absolute minefield and typical of Burnhams shortsightedness.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's an absolute minefield and typical of Burnhams shortsightedness.

This was in development, enabled by a Tory government, a long time before Burnham got elected.

Yes, it is an absolute minefield but that's not exactly a revelation. It's been known to be the case for years, including by many in TfGM.

There are plans afoot for the Wigan / Bolton premises I'm told, but can't say any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm very, very pro regulated operation in urban areas, not that I'm saying TfGM will do it perfectly, but I do find the premises thing a bit odd. London don't do it that way, do they? And bus companies are mostly, Borismasters aside, left to spend the capital on buses.

Greater Manchester isn't at all short of wasteland to park buses on available relatively cheaply, and it's inconceivable that the incumbents wouldn't get enough business to keep their premises if they want to.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm very, very pro regulated operation in urban areas, not that I'm saying TfGM will do it perfectly, but I do find the premises thing a bit odd. London don't do it that way, do they? And bus companies are mostly, Borismasters aside, left to spend the capital on buses.

Greater Manchester isn't at all short of wasteland to park buses on available relatively cheaply, and it's inconceivable that the incumbents wouldn't get enough business to keep their premises if they want to.

This is the strange thing. Depots have spring up all over London in recent years, yet I'm told that GM has a lack of brownfield sites, which is at odds with my own casual observations.

One major difference, the biggest difference compared to London, is that routes are being tendered in large packages so a large site is required in most cases, plus after five years if the incumbent loses then another large site would be required. Ownership by TfGM of the sites means that the new operator merely takes over the existing site. Clearly it works elsewhere, eg Singapore, but I expect there to be severe growing pains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the strange thing. Depots have spring up all over London in recent years, yet I'm told that GM has a lack of brownfield sites, which is at odds with my own casual observations.

It's simply not true. Vast swathes of innersuburban east Manchester are wasteland. They may not be forever but they are now. There are also options in neighbouring towns.

One major difference, the biggest difference compared to London, is that routes are being tendered in large packages so a large site is required in most cases, plus after five years if the incumbent loses then another large site would be required. Ownership by TfGM of the sites means that the new operator merely takes over the existing site. Clearly it works elsewhere, eg Singapore, but I expect there to be severe growing pains.

Fair point.

 

[johncrossley]

I'm very, very pro regulated operation in urban areas, not that I'm saying TfGM will do it perfectly, but I do find the premises thing a bit odd. London don't do it that way, do they? And bus companies are mostly, Borismasters aside, left to spend the capital on buses.

Greater Manchester isn't at all short of wasteland to park buses on available relatively cheaply, and it's inconceivable that the incumbents wouldn't get enough business to keep their premises if they want to.

London buses don't generally do it although some depots are leased from TfL. However, bus tendering abroad is done the TfGM way a lot of the time. Obviously rail is always done that way.

 

[Man of Kent]

There are plans afoot for the Wigan / Bolton premises I'm told, but can't say any more.

Wigan is the subject of a TfGM planning application to Wigan Council for a new depot (on Challenge Way, Martland Park). However, although submitted in May, planning permission has not yet been received.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Greater Manchester isn't at all short of wasteland to park buses on available relatively cheaply, and it's inconceivable that the incumbents wouldn't get enough business to keep their premises if they want to.

Remember what happened to a large number of buses parked up in Newquay some years ago and the teenage arsonist who took advantage of that situation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember what happened to a large number of buses parked up in Newquay some years ago and the teenage arsonist who took advantage of that situation?

Greyhound? I think there's more to it than a bored kid with a box of matches and a bottle of meths from B&Q. I know someone who tried to operate a small operation that competed with a bigger one, and all sorts was going on that was hard to prove.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Greyhound? I think there's more to it than a bored kid with a box of matches and a bottle of meths from B&Q. I know someone who tried to operate a small operation that competed with a bigger one, and all sorts was going on that was hard to prove.

Thirty four buses were destroyed in the Newquay fire and also another instance saw three more destroyed at their Liskeard outstation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thirty four buses were destroyed in the Newquay fire and also another instance saw three more destroyed at their Liskeard outstation.

Which doesn't sound very much like a random coincidence. Verdict was probably just arson, but that sort of thing doesn't happen by accident. It's a bit like the number of issues the Russians have with a lack of safety rails by upper floor windows and smokers carelessly discarding cigarettes at present.

As such it isn't really relevant to TfGM's situation.

 

[GusB]

Unless Newquay has magically been transported to the Greater Manchester area, this line of discussion is off-topic.

 

[Simon75]

Wigan is the subject of a TfGM planning application to Wigan Council for a new depot (on Challenge Way, Martland Park). However, although submitted in May, planning permission has not yet been received.

Is this a 'super' replacing Stagecoach Wigan and Arriva/Rotala's Bolton garages?