Attachments at London Victoria for Redhill line services

[WizCastro197]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-377-5-cascade-to-southern.240212/

Both 15:35 and 16:06 off Eastbourne are 12 coaches. One unit for 15:35 originated off Lovers Walk depot and one unit for 16:06 off Eastbourne sidings. Both later forming peak services to Littlehampton on their return working off London. For some reasons Southern want to get them as 12 coaches formation for diagramming purposes on late evening.

Alright, thanks for information

What services must they operate in late evening that require all 12? Surely when they return back to Victoria from Littlehampton, back 4 split off to forma Reigate?

 

[Minstral25]

Alright, thanks for information

What services must they operate in late evening that require all 12? Surely when they return back to Victoria from Littlehampton, back 4 split off to forma Reigate?

Don't think Reigate's interwork with Coastway anymore.

Mostly a self-contained group of 377's going in and out of Three Bridges sidings and Streatham Hill during the day now I think, with some late night/early morning swaps to Selhurst

 

[WizCastro197]

Don't think Reigate's interwork with Coastway anymore.

Mostly a self-contained group of 377's going in and out of Three Bridges sidings and Streatham Hill during the day now I think, with some late night/early morning swaps to Selhurst

Alright, some Reigate services detach off Southampton services but I am not very sure if this happens often or just the day I saw it.

 

[MCR247]

Alright, some Reigate services detach off Southampton services but I am not very sure if this happens often or just the day I saw it.

I believe the only time Reigate’s attach/split from anything at Redhill is in the peak when they split/join to/from Gatwick/Three Bridges stoppers

 

[JonathanH]

I believe the only time Reigate’s attach/split from anything at Redhill is in the peak when they split/join to/from Gatwick/Three Bridges stoppers

I think the OP was referring to attachments for Redhill line services at Victoria, where Reigate / Gatwick / Three Bridges services interwork with other routes to circulate the stock.

However, of the departures from Victoria to the Redhill line, a quick look at RTT for tomorrow suggests:
0538 - empty from Selhurst Depot, front portion goes to East Grinstead
0608 - empty from Victoria Carriage Sidings
0638 - inward working from Horsham via Redhill
0708, 0738, 0808, 0838 - inward working from Gatwick / Reigate
0908, 0938 - inward working from Eastbourne (splits at Victoria)
1008, 1038 - inward working from Bognor Regis and Southampton (splits at Victoria)
1108, 1138, 1208, 1238, 1308, 1338, 1408, 1438, 1508, 1538 - inward working from Reigate
1608 - formed of inward working from Reigate and extra coaches from Victoria Carriage Sidings
1638 - formed of inward working from Victoria Carriage Sidings
1708 - formed of two inward workings from Reigate
1738 - formed of inward workings from Selhurst Depot and Reigate
1808 - formed of inward working from Streatham Hill
1838 - formed of inward working from Reigate (attachment at Redhill)
1908, 1938, 2008, 2038, 2108, 2138, 2208, 2238, 2308 - inward working from Reigate
2335 - inward working from Horsham via Epsom, front portion works 2325 to Horsham via Epsom
0008 - inward working from Epsom Downs.

So plenty of variety to form up the peak workings and get units on and off the Redhill route.

 

[MCR247]

I think the OP was referring to attachments for Redhill line services at Victoria, where Reigate / Gatwick / Three Bridges services interwork with other routes to circulate the stock.

Ah my mistake

 

[Minstral25]

I think the OP was referring to attachments for Redhill line services at Victoria, where Reigate / Gatwick / Three Bridges services interwork with other routes to circulate the stock.

However, of the departures from Victoria to the Redhill line, a quick look at RTT for tomorrow suggests:
0538 - empty from Selhurst Depot, front portion goes to East Grinstead
0608 - empty from Victoria Carriage Sidings
0638 - inward working from Horsham via Redhill
0708, 0738, 0808, 0838 - inward working from Gatwick / Reigate
0908, 0938 - inward working from Eastbourne (splits at Victoria)
1008, 1038 - inward working from Bognor Regis and Southampton (splits at Victoria)
1108, 1138, 1208, 1238, 1308, 1338, 1408, 1438, 1508, 1538 - inward working from Reigate
1608 - formed of inward working from Reigate and extra coaches from Victoria Carriage Sidings
1638 - formed of inward working from Victoria Carriage Sidings
1708 - formed of two inward workings from Reigate
1738 - formed of inward workings from Selhurst Depot and Reigate
1808 - formed of inward working from Streatham Hill
1838 - formed of inward working from Reigate (attachment at Redhill)
1908, 1938, 2008, 2038, 2108, 2138, 2208, 2238, 2308 - inward working from Reigate
2335 - inward working from Horsham via Epsom, front portion works 2325 to Horsham via Epsom
0008 - inward working from Epsom Downs.

So plenty of variety to form up the peak workings and get units on and off the Redhill route.

Great Analysis - My own didn't get the 09:08, 09:38, 10:08 and 10:38 inwards. How do you know they come off these trains?

 

[JonathanH]

Great Analysis - My own didn't get the 09:08, 09:38, 10:08 and 10:38 inwards. How do you know they come off these trains?

Platform matching. The inbound workings from the Redhill line seem to go 0915 Littlehampton, 0931 Streatham Hill, 1005 Arun Valley, 1035 Arun Valley (although I guess it is down to Control arrangements and planning changes as some of these appear to have changed over time). Today's 1008 and 1038 were formed off an inbound Gatwick / Reigate working.

It was only a rudimentary quick look at RTT. All potentially changes next week anyway.

 

[Minstral25]

Platform matching. The inbound workings from the Redhill line seem to go 0915 Littlehampton, 0931 Streatham Hill, 1005 Arun Valley, 1035 Arun Valley (although I guess it is down to Control arrangements and planning changes as some of these appear to have changed over time). Today's 1008 and 1038 were formed off an inbound Gatwick / Reigate working.

It was only a rudimentary quick look at RTT. All potentially changes next week anyway.

Ahh - I was running off next year's RTT plan. The 09:08 - 10:38 all work off 19 apparently without an inward. I guess the previous Reigate arrival may be 12-coach (I assumed 8) allowing the 09:08 to run off there as well. Probably will change before they start next week anyway.

 

[WizCastro197]

I think the OP was referring to attachments for Redhill line services at Victoria, where Reigate / Gatwick / Three Bridges services interwork with other routes to circulate the stock.

However, of the departures from Victoria to the Redhill line, a quick look at RTT for tomorrow suggests:
0538 - empty from Selhurst Depot, front portion goes to East Grinstead
0608 - empty from Victoria Carriage Sidings
0638 - inward working from Horsham via Redhill
0708, 0738, 0808, 0838 - inward working from Gatwick / Reigate
0908, 0938 - inward working from Eastbourne (splits at Victoria)
1008, 1038 - inward working from Bognor Regis and Southampton (splits at Victoria)
1108, 1138, 1208, 1238, 1308, 1338, 1408, 1438, 1508, 1538 - inward working from Reigate
1608 - formed of inward working from Reigate and extra coaches from Victoria Carriage Sidings
1638 - formed of inward working from Victoria Carriage Sidings
1708 - formed of two inward workings from Reigate
1738 - formed of inward workings from Selhurst Depot and Reigate
1808 - formed of inward working from Streatham Hill
1838 - formed of inward working from Reigate (attachment at Redhill)
1908, 1938, 2008, 2038, 2108, 2138, 2208, 2238, 2308 - inward working from Reigate
2335 - inward working from Horsham via Epsom, front portion works 2325 to Horsham via Epsom
0008 - inward working from Epsom Downs.

So plenty of variety to form up the peak workings and get units on and off the Redhill route.

Thanks!

Yes Reigate/Three Bridges/ Gatwick Airport do interwork and other than providing extra capacity, as you said it gets the stock in the right place. For example the 10:19 arrival at Victoria from Gatwick Airport/Reigate then forms the next service presumably the 10:35 to Southampton and Bognor Regis.

When in the evenings, some Reigate to Victoria services are formed of 8 coaches, are those then interworked on other routes as well or do they split again at Victoria, providing 2 4 coach sets for 2 Reigate services leaving at different times. I hope that makes sense? I think one in the 17:41 Reigate- Victoria that attaches at Redhill for 8 coaches to Victoria, but I am not sure if it is the same service everyday.

 

[JonathanH]

When in the evenings, some Reigate to Victoria services are formed of 8 coaches, are those then interworked on other routes as well or do they split again at Victoria, providing 2 4 coach sets for 2 Reigate services leaving at different times. I hope that makes sense?

Only two of those now - the 1732 from Reigate couples with empty stock at Redhill - comes back out of London as the 1838 to Reigate / Three Bridges, the 1802 from Reigate couples with empty stock at Redhill and comes back out as 1908 Reigate / Three Bridges service.

 

[WizCastro197]

Only one of those now - the 1732 from Reigate couples with empty stock at Redhill - comes back out of London as the 1838 to Reigate / Three Bridges.

Ahh, Alright Thanks for this information, it is very useful Thanks for taking your time to do this as well. Just to let everyone know, I have just changed the thread title to London Victoria from just Victoria, just to avoid any confusion even though it may seem unlikely that is may arise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2022 ==

Only two of those now - the 1732 from Reigate couples with empty stock at Redhill - comes back out of London as the 1838 to Reigate / Three Bridges, the 1802 from Reigate couples with empty stock at Redhill and comes back out as 1908 Reigate / Three Bridges service.

Just as a side note if you don't mind me asking, as you seem in the know, how come some Reigate services leave from Platform 12?

 

[Minstral25]

Just as a side note if you don't mind me asking, as you seem in the know, how come some Reigate services leave from Platform 12?

The logic is that from P12 they don't get overloaded with Clapham Jnct/East Croydon passengers who automatically gravitate to the Sussex platforms (15-19). Local Rail Users spotted the benefits on a couple of services that went there for other reasons and asked GTR to put more Reigate services there. I think almost all Saturday services are already, Sunday will be and much of the weekday. Same is happening to make as many northbound trains as possible leave from platform 2 at Redhill. It makes life easier for passengers.

Looking at the evening split of Gatwick portions from Redhill they are well spread - first 2 as Jonathan says return to form later services, 1 goes to Gatwick sidings for next use following day on Gatwick portions, one set goes to Lovers Walk, one set to Selhurst, one to Three Bridges Tilgate to use again following day, one to Three Bridges Horsham siding which gets used as an Arun Valley unit next day.

 

[JonathanH]

The other useful feature of using platform 12 for the Redhill services is that it avoids a conflict in the Victoria throat with the inbound Gatwick Express arrival from Brighton.

 

[WizCastro197]

The logic is that from P12 they don't get overloaded with Clapham Jnct/East Croydon passengers who automatically gravitate to the Sussex platforms (15-19). Local Rail Users spotted the benefits on a couple of services that went there for other reasons and asked GTR to put more Reigate services there. I think almost all Saturday services are already, Sunday will be and much of the weekday. Same is happening to make as many northbound trains as possible leave from platform 2 at Redhill. It makes life easier for passengers.

Looking at the evening split of Gatwick portions from Redhill they are well spread - first 2 as Jonathan says return to form later services, 1 goes to Gatwick sidings for next use following day on Gatwick portions, one set goes to Lovers Walk, one set to Selhurst, one to Three Bridges Tilgate to use again following day, one to Three Bridges Horsham siding which gets used as an Arun Valley unit next day.

I understand the Victoria issues and will be greatly helpful in the future when I can happily board a train knowing that it won't be piled up with those just needing Clapham. I only partly, understand the platform 2 issue at Redhill as it will help make it easier that all London Trains are departing from 1 platform but that means not much traffic is using platform 0 apart from the 2 to Gatwick Airport, which seems a little of a waste to build a full length platform when it won't really be used anymore. It still is, just not really on Saturdays anymore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2022 ==

The other useful feature of using platform 12 for the Redhill services is that it avoids a conflict in the Victoria throat with the inbound Gatwick Express arrival from Brighton.

Is 12 the farthest platform to the slow side where a train can still join the fast lines or can this still occur for 11,10,9 etc?

 

[Minstral25]

I understand the Victoria issues and will be greatly helpful in the future when I can happily board a train knowing that it won't be piled up with those just needing Clapham. I only partly, understand the platform 2 issue at Redhill as it will help make it easier that all London Trains are departing from 1 platform but that means not much traffic is using platform 0 apart from the 2 to Gatwick Airport, which seems a little of a waste to build a full length platform when it won't really be used anymore. It still is, just not really on Saturdays anymore.

Consistency is the main reason for platform 2 being used. Many passengers get to platform 2 and find they need Platform 0 (Yes, they should check but apparently many don't as 85% of London services leave from platform 2, plus Passenger information systems are badly located at Redhill) but more often the signals will reset a train allocated to platform 0 into platform 2 meaning passengers will need to swap platforms, which if you are at the front of platform 0 is a long walk back to platform 2 and because of this passengers have missed trains from last minute changes.

As for traffic on platform 0, the justification it was built for was 3 GWR trains per hour from North Downs line which have failed to materialise. GTR using platform 2 is not the reason it sees few trains. Still useful for Victoria joiners which should remain in platform 0.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Consistency is the main reason for platform 2 being used. Many passengers get to platform 2 and find they need Platform 0 (Yes, they should check but apparently many don't as 85% of London services leave from platform 2, plus Passenger information systems are badly located at Redhill) but more often the signals will reset a train allocated to platform 0 into platform 2 meaning passengers will need to swap platforms, which if you are at the front of platform 0 is a long walk back to platform 2 and because of this passengers have missed trains from last minute changes.

As for traffic on platform 0, the justification it was built for was 3 GWR trains per hour from North Downs line which have failed to materialise. GTR using platform 2 is not the reason it sees few trains. Still useful for Victoria joiners which should remain in platform 0.

The stop boards for Southerns 4 car emus could be closer towards the steps and even worse an 8 car always runs to the end of P0 making it a long walk back. This was a £80m platform and doesn't really think of passengers so good they keep most traffic to P2.

 

[zwk500]

Is 12 the farthest platform to the slow side where a train can still join the fast lines or can this still occur for 11,10,9 etc?

Yes 12 is the last one. 11-3 you're committed to the slow line until Battersea Park Jn

 

[ValleyLines142]

The logic is that from P12 they don't get overloaded with Clapham Jnct/East Croydon passengers who automatically gravitate to the Sussex platforms (15-19). Local Rail Users spotted the benefits on a couple of services that went there for other reasons and asked GTR to put more Reigate services there. I think almost all Saturday services are already, Sunday will be and much of the weekday. Same is happening to make as many northbound trains as possible leave from platform 2 at Redhill. It makes life easier for passengers.

Looking at the evening split of Gatwick portions from Redhill they are well spread - first 2 as Jonathan says return to form later services, 1 goes to Gatwick sidings for next use following day on Gatwick portions, one set goes to Lovers Walk, one set to Selhurst, one to Three Bridges Tilgate to use again following day, one to Three Bridges Horsham siding which gets used as an Arun Valley unit next day.

Interesting you say that, as when I go from Victoria to Clapham I tend to go from platform 9-12 because they're closer to the main concourse rather than 15-19 which are a little further up!

 

[WizCastro197]

Interesting you say that, as when I go from Victoria to Clapham I tend to go from platform 9-12 because they're closer to the main concourse rather than 15-19 which are a little further up!

Although, the majority of commuters who use those services typically wouldn't go for 9-12 as they know they are 'slow trains'. Instead, they gravitate towards 15-19 for Clapham and East Croydon as those trains get there 'fast'.